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  1. #1
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Obsolete enhancement that doesn't do anything anymore.

    "Obsolete enhancement that doesn't do anything anymore."

    This is the full and exact text serving as the description of spell-crit multipliers, in my case:
    Favored Soul: Prayer of Incredible Smiting & Prayer of Incredible Life.

    Wow Turbine... Just, wow...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  2. #2
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Wow Turbine... Just, wow...
    I don't get it. Are you admitting shock at Turbine changing the rules of its own game?

    While we're on the subject, what I find shocking is the complete lack of attention to game balance given by every single member whose post I have read today. It's all about how "my character used to have this high of e-peen, and you've cut it down to a little nubby lore-less toothpick..."

    Everyone needs to get a grip. This game is going to change, or its going to die. Period.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This game is going to change, or its going to die. Period.
    Making unannounced changes with no explanation is likely to make it do both.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This game is going to change, or its going to die. Period.
    The changes are what's going to kill the game.

    It is absurd that a 7 year old game has as much uncertainty as what we have here in DDO.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I don't get it.
    Clearly
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  6. #6
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Making unannounced changes with no explanation is likely to make it do both.
    Take it you, or anyone else in this thread, has not read DEV post on the topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Take it you, or anyone else in this thread, has not read DEV post on the topic?
    Actually, no I haven't. Mind pointing me in the right direction? Would be much appreciated, thanx!
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #8
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Take it you, or anyone else in this thread, has not read DEV post on the topic?
    You mean the one you linked to for all the people who obviously haven't seen the post you're talking about?
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I don't get it. Are you admitting shock at Turbine changing the rules of its own game?

    While we're on the subject, what I find shocking is the complete lack of attention to game balance given by every single member whose post I have read today. It's all about how "my character used to have this high of e-peen, and you've cut it down to a little nubby lore-less toothpick..."

    Everyone needs to get a grip. This game is going to change, or its going to die. Period.
    I have a few problems with your post. First off you're pretending that that text description is fitting for a professional commercial level MMO that is for profit.

    Second I find your concept of "balance" to be suspiciously all encompassing catchall that you seem to be using to justify absolutely anything Turbine does no matter how amaturish or poorly it's been done.

    Third, yes MMO's change, however pretending that this is always for the best, and that no one should have a problem with any changes is just ostrich with head in sand stuff.

    Star Wars Galaxies once made a change to their game so bad that much of it's player base LEFT. It is not far fetched that a much weaker MMO (in terms of player base) might make a move or a series of moves that have a similar effect. Nerfing a LOT of characters without warning or discussion, even if it's just an accident, could be one of those "last straws". Especially when in the same space of time: They've carped all over the community by borking the Forums, and coming on the heels of a widely disliked "enhancement preview" that appears to be already in the process of being pushed to live without the promised "beta phase" or the implied "listening to the players and making adjustments". This appearance of course is entirely Turbine's fault as they have obviously left in the changes (accidentally or not doesn't much matter) that make it quite obvious that they are going to push them on the playerbase no matter what we think of them. Sort of like if I asked my Spouse "Hey hon, what do you think of this new Paint color for the living room, BTW don't pay any attention to the 5 gallon bucket I just set down in the living room.

    I don't know why you're defending the last couple things you've defended it seems hard to believe and I have been one to give Turbine much benefit of the doubt in the past (and probably will again in the future).

    Last thing: most people who have played MMO's for a while DREAD "balance" they do not crave it, because Balance is vanilla, balance is plain and ordinary. It results in fun characters being nerfed to no longer be fun... And I don't know about you but I play MMO's for FUN... when my FUN character that took weeks and months of gearing and leveling and maybe even 10 or 20 bucks worth of real money to respec to get "just right" when that gets nerfed and my MONEY and TIME are p!ssed on by Turbine, well... the last time it happened I stopped playing for a year. So hey "just accept it" or leave... If Turbine wants to push paying customers out, I can't stop them... but I'm hardly going to defend an bad practice when I see one, and nerfing has always been a bad idea. I can guarantee you more people leave because their character, time, and their money were "nerfed" than leave because "that Wizard I played with was TOOO POWERUL WHAAAA IMA CRY NOW AND LEAVE THE GAME BECAUSE HE IS OP!" no the far more likely result of that is "Man I am rolling one of those".

    Balance at it's heart is a lack of "standing out" or no feeling of power in characters, and these games are not about Milquetoast characters that have trivial abilities and can barely effect their environment. I've played "balanced" MMO's... they really suck.... the "power" is handed out in paltry demoralizing drips and drabs. They give out the equivalent of +0.01 extra damage when you level... so your feeling of progress is non-existent but you don't gain an "advantage" over other classes, because the only possible advantages are triffling small. Your characters feel like commoners for most of their life span, being killed by mundain s*** like Slimes and Rabbits. Balance is my Wizard doing the exact same damage at the same ranges as your Ranger, and someone elses Fighter, only with different colored sparkles when they hit. Balance is rock paper scissors game play. Shallow, and unrewarding. No standouts by definition because the raised nail gets the hammer, until all the nails are exactly the same with only visual differences that can not satisfy a discerning veteran gamer.

    Balance is a false paradigm that is only touted by people who haven't yet thought through the logical consequences of what "perfectly balanced" implies to realize "balanced" is really:

    Luke warm
    Vanilla
    even
    grey
    meh
    average
    plain
    fair
    oh hum
    so-so

    If you want Vanilla there are plenty of shallow MMO's that will give you rock paper scissors until you're bored of it within a few weeks.

  10. #10
    Community Member lamborgini's Avatar
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    I for one say a spell caster should never be balanced with a melee, that completely ruins the whole purpose of spell damage for casters. While yes they can rely on other spells to aid themselves or others is fine, but to lower their DPS output for the sake of balance actually causes the exact opposite!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This game is going to change, or its going to die. Period.
    Not all changes are good. Some are actively bad, and, rather than helping prevent the game from dying, will actually speed up it's demise.

    Protesting such bad changes is just good sense.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I have a few problems with your post. First off you're pretending that that text description is fitting for a professional commercial level MMO that is for profit.

    Second I find your concept of "balance" to be suspiciously all encompassing catchall that you seem to be using to justify absolutely anything Turbine does no matter how amaturish or poorly it's been done.

    Third, yes MMO's change, however pretending that this is always for the best, and that no one should have a problem with any changes is just ostrich with head in sand stuff.

    Star Wars Galaxies once made a change to their game so bad that much of it's player base LEFT. It is not far fetched that a much weaker MMO (in terms of player base) might make a move or a series of moves that have a similar effect. Nerfing a LOT of characters without warning or discussion, even if it's just an accident, could be one of those "last straws". Especially when in the same space of time: They've carped all over the community by borking the Forums, and coming on the heels of a widely disliked "enhancement preview" that appears to be already in the process of being pushed to live without the promised "beta phase" or the implied "listening to the players and making adjustments". This appearance of course is entirely Turbine's fault as they have obviously left in the changes (accidentally or not doesn't much matter) that make it quite obvious that they are going to push them on the playerbase no matter what we think of them. Sort of like if I asked my Spouse "Hey hon, what do you think of this new Paint color for the living room, BTW don't pay any attention to the 5 gallon bucket I just set down in the living room.

    I don't know why you're defending the last couple things you've defended it seems hard to believe and I have been one to give Turbine much benefit of the doubt in the past (and probably will again in the future).

    Last thing: most people who have played MMO's for a while DREAD "balance" they do not crave it, because Balance is vanilla, balance is plain and ordinary. It results in fun characters being nerfed to no longer be fun... And I don't know about you but I play MMO's for FUN... when my FUN character that took weeks and months of gearing and leveling and maybe even 10 or 20 bucks worth of real money to respec to get "just right" when that gets nerfed and my MONEY and TIME are p!ssed on by Turbine, well... the last time it happened I stopped playing for a year. So hey "just accept it" or leave... If Turbine wants to push paying customers out, I can't stop them... but I'm hardly going to defend an bad practice when I see one, and nerfing has always been a bad idea. I can guarantee you more people leave because their character, time, and their money were "nerfed" than leave because "that Wizard I played with was TOOO POWERUL WHAAAA IMA CRY NOW AND LEAVE THE GAME BECAUSE HE IS OP!" no the far more likely result of that is "Man I am rolling one of those".

    Balance at it's heart is a lack of "standing out" or no feeling of power in characters, and these games are not about Milquetoast characters that have trivial abilities and can barely effect their environment. I've played "balanced" MMO's... they really suck.... the "power" is handed out in paltry demoralizing drips and drabs. They give out the equivalent of +0.01 extra damage when you level... so your feeling of progress is non-existent but you don't gain an "advantage" over other classes, because the only possible advantages are triffling small. Your characters feel like commoners for most of their life span, being killed by mundain s*** like Slimes and Rabbits. Balance is my Wizard doing the exact same damage at the same ranges as your Ranger, and someone elses Fighter, only with different colored sparkles when they hit. Balance is rock paper scissors game play. Shallow, and unrewarding. No standouts by definition because the raised nail gets the hammer, until all the nails are exactly the same with only visual differences that can not satisfy a discerning veteran gamer.

    Balance is a false paradigm that is only touted by people who haven't yet thought through the logical consequences of what "perfectly balanced" implies to realize "balanced" is really:

    Luke warm
    Vanilla
    even
    grey
    meh
    average
    plain
    fair
    oh hum
    so-so

    If you want Vanilla there are plenty of shallow MMO's that will give you rock paper scissors until you're bored of it within a few weeks.
    *slow clap* Well said. Balance is boring. I play Rifts, the Palladium Books pen and paper RPG where a perfectly normal human scholar can be in a party alongside a Godling and a Cosmo-Knight, each of which can tear apart a main battle tank with his bare hands and that scholar has no problems making an impact on the game if played well.. Balance is a myth. It's a canard. It's a remnant of DnD's wargaming roots where it actually mattered. This isn't a wargame, it's a role playing game. Well, DDO isn't. MMOs never can be true RPGs, but they're close enough that the principle is the same. Game balance isn't that important when you aren't trying to work out faithful representations of historical battles like Gary and his friends originally were.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I have a few problems with your post. First off you're pretending that that text description is fitting for a professional commercial level MMO that is for profit.

    Second I find your concept of "balance" to be suspiciously all encompassing catchall that you seem to be using to justify absolutely anything Turbine does no matter how amaturish or poorly it's been done.

    Third, yes MMO's change, however pretending that this is always for the best, and that no one should have a problem with any changes is just ostrich with head in sand stuff.

    Star Wars Galaxies once made a change to their game so bad that much of it's player base LEFT. It is not far fetched that a much weaker MMO (in terms of player base) might make a move or a series of moves that have a similar effect. Nerfing a LOT of characters without warning or discussion, even if it's just an accident, could be one of those "last straws". Especially when in the same space of time: They've carped all over the community by borking the Forums, and coming on the heels of a widely disliked "enhancement preview" that appears to be already in the process of being pushed to live without the promised "beta phase" or the implied "listening to the players and making adjustments". This appearance of course is entirely Turbine's fault as they have obviously left in the changes (accidentally or not doesn't much matter) that make it quite obvious that they are going to push them on the playerbase no matter what we think of them. Sort of like if I asked my Spouse "Hey hon, what do you think of this new Paint color for the living room, BTW don't pay any attention to the 5 gallon bucket I just set down in the living room.

    I don't know why you're defending the last couple things you've defended it seems hard to believe and I have been one to give Turbine much benefit of the doubt in the past (and probably will again in the future).

    Last thing: most people who have played MMO's for a while DREAD "balance" they do not crave it, because Balance is vanilla, balance is plain and ordinary. It results in fun characters being nerfed to no longer be fun... And I don't know about you but I play MMO's for FUN... when my FUN character that took weeks and months of gearing and leveling and maybe even 10 or 20 bucks worth of real money to respec to get "just right" when that gets nerfed and my MONEY and TIME are p!ssed on by Turbine, well... the last time it happened I stopped playing for a year. So hey "just accept it" or leave... If Turbine wants to push paying customers out, I can't stop them... but I'm hardly going to defend an bad practice when I see one, and nerfing has always been a bad idea. I can guarantee you more people leave because their character, time, and their money were "nerfed" than leave because "that Wizard I played with was TOOO POWERUL WHAAAA IMA CRY NOW AND LEAVE THE GAME BECAUSE HE IS OP!" no the far more likely result of that is "Man I am rolling one of those".

    Balance at it's heart is a lack of "standing out" or no feeling of power in characters, and these games are not about Milquetoast characters that have trivial abilities and can barely effect their environment. I've played "balanced" MMO's... they really suck.... the "power" is handed out in paltry demoralizing drips and drabs. They give out the equivalent of +0.01 extra damage when you level... so your feeling of progress is non-existent but you don't gain an "advantage" over other classes, because the only possible advantages are triffling small. Your characters feel like commoners for most of their life span, being killed by mundain s*** like Slimes and Rabbits. Balance is my Wizard doing the exact same damage at the same ranges as your Ranger, and someone elses Fighter, only with different colored sparkles when they hit. Balance is rock paper scissors game play. Shallow, and unrewarding. No standouts by definition because the raised nail gets the hammer, until all the nails are exactly the same with only visual differences that can not satisfy a discerning veteran gamer.

    Balance is a false paradigm that is only touted by people who haven't yet thought through the logical consequences of what "perfectly balanced" implies to realize "balanced" is really:

    Luke warm
    Vanilla
    even
    grey
    meh
    average
    plain
    fair
    oh hum
    so-so

    If you want Vanilla there are plenty of shallow MMO's that will give you rock paper scissors until you're bored of it within a few weeks.
    Sounds like the rant of a Luke warm, even, grey, meh, average, plain, fair, ho hum, so-so player over not being able to manipulate the system in order to stand out despite their limitations. In my experience the best games balance character power but leave room for good players to stand out by getting more out of the tools they are given to get the job done.

    Not to say DDO does that, but at least it seems to be moving in a direction that allows those who disregard the common sense easy buttons in order to derive some sort of entertainment from the game without seeing to be an idiot who doesn't realize there are easier alternatives to simply playing well.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamborgini View Post
    I for one say a spell caster should never be balanced with a melee, that completely ruins the whole purpose of spell damage for casters. While yes they can rely on other spells to aid themselves or others is fine, but to lower their DPS output for the sake of balance actually causes the exact opposite!
    I would agree with this if they didn't have unlimited mana.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Take it you, or anyone else in this thread, has not read DEV post on the topic?
    I believe he is talking about this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This not intended nor by design. The enhancement is not obsolete: That text being there at all is a bug. However, we're checking to make sure it's working as it's intended to (which is the same as it used to in Update 17).
    Which you can find with the dev tracker. It sounds like it may be a display issue only, although, the wording does leave some doubt because they want to double check.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Sounds like the rant of a Luke warm, even, grey, meh, average, plain, fair, ho hum, so-so player over not being able to manipulate the system in order to stand out despite their limitations. In my experience the best games balance character power but leave room for good players to stand out by getting more out of the tools they are given to get the job done.

    Not to say DDO does that, but at least it seems to be moving in a direction that allows those who disregard the common sense easy buttons in order to derive some sort of entertainment from the game without seeing to be an idiot who doesn't realize there are easier alternatives to simply playing well.
    Your experience differs from my own. I mention Rifts a lot in my posts. I was Kilbar before the forum changes. As I repeatedly state, that game has nearly no traditional balance to it and yet it's the players who make the difference in whether or not their characters shine. I've seen people play full conversion cyborgs who could tank tactical nukes and devastate WW II battleships with their secondary built-in weapons in seconds who may as well have been potted plants as far as their effect on the party was concerned. They only did something when something needed killing and the rest of the time they may as well have been ornate statues. I've also seen City Rats (ultra-tech hackers) who basically led and dominated the group while being the squishiest person in the party bringing almost nothing to the table when guns were drawn.

    I've played the gamut of the spectrum in that game, from a squishy Natural Genius from the Beyond the Supernatural world who was rifted to 25th century Earth by accident to a Forest Runner dragon hatchling to a Norse Giant from Jotunheim to a dozen and more others all of which fit in different niches within the powerscale that ran from ".38 revolver can kill you" to "200 kiloton nuke will give you a sunburn... maybe."
    Last edited by Keltarrin; 05-23-2013 at 11:21 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I have a few problems with your post. First off you're pretending that that text description is fitting for a professional commercial level MMO that is for profit.

    Second I find your concept of "balance" to be suspiciously all encompassing catchall that you seem to be using to justify absolutely anything Turbine does no matter how amaturish or poorly it's been done.

    Third, yes MMO's change, however pretending that this is always for the best, and that no one should have a problem with any changes is just ostrich with head in sand stuff.

    Star Wars Galaxies once made a change to their game so bad that much of it's player base LEFT. It is not far fetched that a much weaker MMO (in terms of player base) might make a move or a series of moves that have a similar effect. Nerfing a LOT of characters without warning or discussion, even if it's just an accident, could be one of those "last straws". Especially when in the same space of time: They've carped all over the community by borking the Forums, and coming on the heels of a widely disliked "enhancement preview" that appears to be already in the process of being pushed to live without the promised "beta phase" or the implied "listening to the players and making adjustments". This appearance of course is entirely Turbine's fault as they have obviously left in the changes (accidentally or not doesn't much matter) that make it quite obvious that they are going to push them on the playerbase no matter what we think of them. Sort of like if I asked my Spouse "Hey hon, what do you think of this new Paint color for the living room, BTW don't pay any attention to the 5 gallon bucket I just set down in the living room.

    I don't know why you're defending the last couple things you've defended it seems hard to believe and I have been one to give Turbine much benefit of the doubt in the past (and probably will again in the future).

    Last thing: most people who have played MMO's for a while DREAD "balance" they do not crave it, because Balance is vanilla, balance is plain and ordinary. It results in fun characters being nerfed to no longer be fun... And I don't know about you but I play MMO's for FUN... when my FUN character that took weeks and months of gearing and leveling and maybe even 10 or 20 bucks worth of real money to respec to get "just right" when that gets nerfed and my MONEY and TIME are p!ssed on by Turbine, well... the last time it happened I stopped playing for a year. So hey "just accept it" or leave... If Turbine wants to push paying customers out, I can't stop them... but I'm hardly going to defend an bad practice when I see one, and nerfing has always been a bad idea. I can guarantee you more people leave because their character, time, and their money were "nerfed" than leave because "that Wizard I played with was TOOO POWERUL WHAAAA IMA CRY NOW AND LEAVE THE GAME BECAUSE HE IS OP!" no the far more likely result of that is "Man I am rolling one of those".

    Balance at it's heart is a lack of "standing out" or no feeling of power in characters, and these games are not about Milquetoast characters that have trivial abilities and can barely effect their environment. I've played "balanced" MMO's... they really suck.... the "power" is handed out in paltry demoralizing drips and drabs. They give out the equivalent of +0.01 extra damage when you level... so your feeling of progress is non-existent but you don't gain an "advantage" over other classes, because the only possible advantages are triffling small. Your characters feel like commoners for most of their life span, being killed by mundain s*** like Slimes and Rabbits. Balance is my Wizard doing the exact same damage at the same ranges as your Ranger, and someone elses Fighter, only with different colored sparkles when they hit. Balance is rock paper scissors game play. Shallow, and unrewarding. No standouts by definition because the raised nail gets the hammer, until all the nails are exactly the same with only visual differences that can not satisfy a discerning veteran gamer.

    Balance is a false paradigm that is only touted by people who haven't yet thought through the logical consequences of what "perfectly balanced" implies to realize "balanced" is really:

    Luke warm
    Vanilla
    even
    grey
    meh
    average
    plain
    fair
    oh hum
    so-so

    If you want Vanilla there are plenty of shallow MMO's that will give you rock paper scissors until you're bored of it within a few weeks.
    Amen!!!!

  18. #18
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Balance no good, I tell you my friend.
    Tell that to my monk, his centerness is way over 9000.

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  19. #19
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    Tell that to my monk, his centerness is way over 9000.
    Until he equips a Buckler that weighs 1 stone/lbs/Kg (Bleh...however you measure mass). Then you can't walk a straight line if your life depended on it. Put a Kama (Same approx. mass) in the same hand and your golden.

    Yes, and balance will ruin more games than not or just make them boring.

  20. #20
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junk View Post
    I would agree with this if they didn't have unlimited mana.
    Oh God, I rememeber my first life... running with devils....
    decided to Play a waiting game and wait for the Ghaele Cleric to run out of SP to heal themselves...

    Good times!
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
    It is okay to be "merry": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOOKb-DFZs
    I just Keep quiet and think.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYP8M06A8W0

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