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  1. #61
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Archer's Focus is a damage boost. It has nothing to do with your attempts to recreate scenes from movies. You simply get more damage the longer you can stand in one spot and concentrate. It makes all kinds of sense in all kinds of ways. Your behavior does not have to change one iota, and you still get increased damage every 3 seconds you stay in one spot.



    I have never in my life even liked Turbine. I have been trying to get them to make a decent game for a full 7 years. Part of that involves defending good ideas as well as moaning about bad ones.



    Oh, I played yesterday. And I played 2 months ago. And 12 months ago. And 72 months ago. What you don't get is that I've been playing for [B]7 years[B]. That's a lot of observations and a lot of wiffling back and forth.



    No, if you read my post I was mostly talking about party makeups over a very long time. Invaders was released a few months after launch of the original (subscriber) DDO. Also, I was talking about MY game and how it works. I'm sorry, but it is your burden to prove that I'm lying about MY OWN experience. I don't really know how to prove what my own experience is other than to just tell you what it is.



    I am not looking for proof. I know what my experience is. If YOU are seeking proof then I would suggest investigating login statistics. A certain website (I don't remember the name, I clicked the link in a forum discussion) is cataloging logins and reports usage. When I went there, it showed that melee are very popular at low levels but become increasingly less popular at high levels. This suggests to me that statistics show that MY EXPERIENCE is similar to that of others. You could also put up an LFM for challenges and compare the statistics that you get with what I reported (the post is gone now - it was 80% caster, 15% ranged, and 5% melee). I was actually being a bit conservative on the skew.
    According to DDO Oracle, the most popular class is Monk at level 25...the class often touted as the most overpowered, the shiradi sorc, (along with the entirety of the rest of the level 25 sorcs) outnumber fighters by only (1k vs 951). In fact, the classes that are often touted as WEAKER casters (the divines, FvS and Clr) beat out Wiz and Sorc.

    Just disputing something that you can't brush off with "my experience proves otherwise" even when the experience of almost everyone else says you're incorrect. The closest to correct thing you posted was that good ranged characters were in fact using IPS most of the time, and that hasn't changed. I will say this, though...if you're doing something above EN, your ranged characters are not killing everything before a melee can get to the enemies.

    By the way, I didn't remember the website's name either...luckily, a lovely thing called google exists. Open a new tab in your browser, type in something like "DDO server statistics" (my exact search), and you'll be surprised that you actually have a SOURCE that you can CITE...but even the information in this site doesn't prove anything, because it CAN'T figure out the fighting style just by class (there are AA Fighters, melee Divines and Arcanes, and more that doesn't fit into the microcosm of what you're saying).
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 05-24-2013 at 11:46 AM.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  2. #62
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    According to DDO Oracle, the most popular class is Monk at level 25
    Yes, destinies were a good thing for the game, they mixed things up. But you are wrong to be using level 25.

    According to DDO Oracle, there are 15,639 level 25 characters (logging in over whatever time period). There are 59,285 characters logging in (over the same time period) at level 20. What is the breakdown at level 20?

    No surprises: Cleric, Wizard, Favord Soul, Sorc. Yes, fighter must have moved up. I would hypothesize (no proof yet) that fighter moved up because the people left playing the game haven't figured out how badly things are skewed. Compare that to level 1, where fighter doubles the logins of the next most popular class.
    Last edited by Raithe; 05-24-2013 at 12:00 PM.

  3. #63
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Yes, destinies were a good thing for the game, they mixed them up. But you are wrong to be using level 25.

    According to DDO Oracle, there are 15,639 level 25 characters (logging in over whatever time period). There are 59,285 characters logging in (over the same time period) at level 20. What is the breakdown at level 20?

    No surprises: Cleric, Wizard, Favord Soul, Sorc. Yes, fighter must have moved up. I would hypothesize (no proof yet) that fighter moved up because the people left playing the game haven't figured out how badly things are skewed. Compare that to level 1, where fighter doubles the logins of the next most popular class.
    Counting level 20 isn't necessarily valid, as it may count parked characters (such as my own) or TRs getting ready to go back to 1 (the information is a snapshot, so this is a definite risk). Level 25 is much less likely to do so, and much more relevant as well.

    You don't use a mid-way point to judge what people are making to play in the end-game. That just doesn't work.

    BTW, your second bracket should have a / in there...otherwise, it thinks you're trying to open two quote fields, and can't because there's no terminators.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #64
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    You don't use a mid-way point to judge what people are making to play in the end-game. That just doesn't work.
    You can use both level 20 and level 25 if you want, I'm saying that population-wise, level 20 is more relevant. And yes, it is quite evident that people think that their own experience at cap (level 25) is the only thing they think is important. My point in arguing here is to provide an alternative point of view.

    And I have to use Chrome to edit my posts. So I had to install it on this computer...

  5. #65
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    Still trying to make sure the data set we use backs your assertions, I see. Sorry, you still appear to be standing alone. And really, Raithe, who looks the more foolish, someone who has seen and used a site but can't recall the name or someone who's never heard of it before who doubts it's existence when someone cites it sans name to back up wild claims?

  6. #66
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    You can use both level 20 and level 25 if you want, I'm saying that population-wise, level 20 is more relevant. And yes, it is quite evident that people think that their own experience at cap (level 25) is the only thing they think is important. My point in arguing here is to provide an alternative point of view.

    And I have to use Chrome to edit my posts. So I had to install it on this computer...
    Population-wise, you should actually add all levels together. Now, if you want to actually use actionable data for what you're saying (high levels see many more casters than melees), you should look at the the right categories through agreed-upon criteria (which we're obviously missing, as you see level 20 as high levels apparently when I see it as relatively low-level)...unfortunately, nothing on that can prove or disprove your assertion, because as I have said, class != playstyle.

    I'll also make a spreadsheet for you to show the difference between caster classes and non-caster classes at high levels and low levels, if you want, even giving the Level 20 column to high levels...using the following criteria: Low Levels = Levels 1-4 for DDO Oracle's info, High Levels = Levels 20-25, Caster Classes = Druid/Sorc/FvS/Clr/Wiz/Bard (freebie because that's where it most closely fits for Bard), Non-Caster Classes = all else.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 05-24-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Population-wise, you should actually add all levels together. Now, if you want to actually use actionable data for what you're saying (high levels see many more casters than melees), you should look at the the right categories through agreed-upon criteria (which we're obviously missing, as you see level 20 as high levels apparently when I see it as relatively low-level)...unfortunately, nothing on that can prove or disprove your assertion, because as I have said, class != playstyle.
    True dat! I know a wizard player who is strictly Melee. And no, he doesn't spend all his time dead and yes, he contributes quite well to DPS. No idea how, but he does it!

  8. #68
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    True dat! I know a wizard player who is strictly Melee. And no, he doesn't spend all his time dead and yes, he contributes quite well to DPS. No idea how, but he does it!
    EDs, probably. They make up a lot of the difference.
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  9. #69
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I'll also make a spreadsheet for you...
    I'm not looking for proof. I know what my own experience is. I was just helping out a newbie.

    You can also use the polls someone put up on the forums simply asking forumites how they ranked the classes in power. Wizard, Sorceror, Favored Soul, Cleric, Monk - all saw top positions. The end results are also available in the same thread.

    It's sad that I actually have to announce the obvious in the face of people desperately trying to grub for overpowered mechanics to justify their current flavor of character. I would be more concerned about Monks and their special abilities, but it is a P2P class and an apparent favorite of certain developers. That's a battle for a different time if that time ever comes.

  10. #70
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The fact that you think the Juggernaught build was some sort of diverse invention before it became popular is why you are throwing a fit, and I am mostly going to ignore you...

    Notice that I've been following DDO (if not playing it often) for its entire lifetime. The Juggernaught is nothing new, its the same-old, diversity-less, range-trumps-all-tactics boring stupidity that someone at Turbine finds fun (or they are ignorant of it). My beef with the game is MOSTLY with Artis and casters, but rangers have their moments of exploitation as well (as do monks and rogues, occasionally).
    Range trumps all?

    Guess I need to go back to school, because both my reading of the Juggernaut and playing of the same make it primarily Melee. I'll admit that I did use the repeater not infrequently, but Cleave and Great Cleave were very commonly used. Personally, I view the Juggernaut as a very good (occasionally excellent) ranged build, with adequate to very good melee (tenser's, weapon buffs, and the feats to support it) with some wicked cool self healing capability.

    I agree that the developers are rather leery of ranged builds particularly those with essentially unlimited endurance (as opposed to spell casters -- though to be fair I've been told that it is "not hard" to build an essentially infinite sp caster and that rest shrines are every 50 feet).

  11. #71
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    There is a trend of increased caster playing and decreased melee playing between low-levels and high-levels...however, there's much less difference at low levels than high levels. At low levels (levels 1-4), casters make up 38.7% of the population, with non-casters filling the remaining 61.3%. At high levels (levels 20-25), casters take up 54.78% of the population, while non-casters take up 45.22%. The non-caster population shrinks by 37.36% and the caster population grows by 20.17%, while the population overall shrinks by 15.1%.

    The perceived imbalance of "everyone's playing a caster" is just that, an incorrect perception.

    This data is sourced from DDO Oracle's All Worlds page (link here).

    Spreadsheet available on Google Drive (link here).
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  12. #72
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    ...because both my reading of the Juggernaut and playing of the same make it primarily Melee.
    Sure, use melee until you hit a difficult situation, then pull out a bow and manyshot everything into oblivion. It's the same thing that rangers have been doing forever. Only now its gotten worse than that. Ranged characters in groups don't even need to mess with the melee part - its just mow everything down as soon as it comes into view.

    Note that this thread is about making that sad situation even worse.

  13. #73
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Sure, use melee until you hit a difficult situation, then pull out a bow and manyshot everything into oblivion. It's the same thing that rangers have been doing forever. Only now its gotten worse than that. Ranged characters in groups don't even need to mess with the melee part - its just mow everything down as soon as it comes into view.

    Note that this thread is about making that sad situation even worse.
    What you are describing is something I have literally never seen - manyshot is used for burst DPS, not for keeping enemies at ranged, on manyshot-capable melee characters (unless, for example, you're soloing EE content and need to build up your blitz counter).
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  14. #74
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    What you are describing is something I have literally never seen - manyshot is used for burst DPS, not for keeping enemies at ranged, on manyshot-capable melee characters (unless, for example, you're soloing EE content and need to build up your blitz counter).
    So in this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1h6klhxPwk is the Juggernaut using his "burst DPS" when burst DPS would be best, i.e. in the beginning to get to the challenge stars faster, or is he using it in the more difficult situations? Once you get to the first challenge star, the remaining stars come at timed intervals. Completing the challenge basically hinges on getting to that first star as quick as possible.

    This is quickly turning into a tangent that has nothing to do with this discussion. As I said in my first post in this thread, the concern is primarily with ranged-heavy parties. For everyone that thinks those don't exist, I probably should have Fraps'd my last 20 pugs...
    Last edited by Raithe; 05-24-2013 at 01:22 PM.

  15. #75
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    So in this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1h6klhxPwk is the Juggernaut using his "burst DPS" when burst DPS would be best, i.e. in the beginning to get to the challenge stars faster, or is he using it in the more difficult situations? Once you get to the first challenge star, the remaining stars come at timed intervals. Completing the challenge basically hinges on getting to that first star as quick as possible.

    This is quickly turning into a tangent that has nothing to do with this discussion. As I said in my first post in this thread, the concern is primarily with ranged-heavy parties. For everyone that thinks those don't exist, I probably should have Fraps'd my last 20 pugs...
    He's using it when it would bring more damage due to IPS, or due to manyshot + 10-stack of blitz meaning more burst damage. The ranged is only even worthwhile for burst DPS (during manyshot). In fact, during what's arguably the most dangerous situation (surrounded by Jarriliths), he is cleaving in the middle of them.

    First star is unimportant compared to how fast you can bring down the bosses. If you can kill the bosses quick enough to 6-star, the first star is nowhere near difficult to get in 5 minutes or less.

    Please learn something about that which you're talking before you post nonsense.

    Do post proof that these primarily ranged parties are anywhere near as common as you say. It seems that you're playing on a different server (or in a different reality) from everyone else posting, so it'd be interesting to see.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 05-24-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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  16. #76
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    First star is unimportant compared to how fast you can bring down the bosses.
    For groups that I am in, killing bosses usually involves a significant wait until the next boss. However, if it takes 5 minutes to get to the first star, you simply DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME for all the bosses to get a gong. This is apparent to anyone who has ran the quest a lot (as I have). Bosses will get a gong even if you haven't killed the current boss. Killing the current boss may shorten the wait time to the next boss, but that feature actually seems to be quite buggy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Please learn something about that which you're talking before you post nonsense.
    Right back at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Do post proof that these primarily ranged parties are anywhere near as common as you say. It seems that you're playing on a different server (or in a different reality) from everyone else posting, so it'd be interesting to see.
    Posting proof that would be in anyway useful would involve me cataloging every PUG I've been in for the last 3 years. I didn't do that, and I'm not going to be here for the next 3 years. What happens at this point in the game is going to be influenced by decisions about game design, anyway. That's what this argument is about... replicating the errors of the past, or finding a new way to a better game experience.

  17. #77
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    For groups that I am in, killing bosses usually involves a significant wait until the next boss. However, if it takes 5 minutes to get to the first star, you simply DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME for all the bosses to get a gong. This is apparent to anyone who has ran the quest a lot (as I have). Bosses will get a gong even if you haven't killed the current boss. Killing the current boss may shorten the wait time to the next boss, but that feature actually seems to be quite buggy.



    Right back at you.



    Posting proof that would be in anyway useful would involve me cataloging every PUG I've been in for the last 3 years. I didn't do that, and I'm not going to be here for the next 3 years. What happens at this point in the game is going to be influenced by decisions about game design, anyway. That's what this argument is about... replicating the errors of the past, or finding a new way to a better game experience.
    Was going to post a long answer to post holes in your argument, but I realized half-way through that you're just arguing to be contrary, as you can't possibly have as much experience as you claim and still post such patently incorrect informaiton. Troll elsewhere.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  18. #78
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    Raithe, you don't seem to understand that killing at range has been a persistent dream of humanity ever since we figured out that we could kill one another with our bare hands. It's why we started throwing rocks instead. What you call a sad state of affairs, I call a refreshing dose of reality. Why stand and be shanked when I can stand off and do the shanking? Rocks, spears, atl-atls, bows, crossbows, arquebuses, matchlocks, wheel locks, flintlocks, lever actions, bolt actions, semi automatics, fully automatics, selective fire, under barrel attachments, and YOU want us to use the Lolthdamned bayonet!

  19. #79
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    ...and YOU want us to use the Lolthdamned bayonet!
    Me? No. You people just don't get it. I'm not being contrarian for the giggles. All but one of my primary characters are RANGED characters: A sorceror, a repeater-rogue, a caster druid, a shiradi ranger, a bard (who casts spells and uses bows almost as much as melee), an arcane archer bard/rng/rog, a caster cleric.

    My guild name is The Rangers of Ravenwood.

    Its the people that are leaving the game that wanted to be using melee to contribute meaningfully to parties. Yes, if you only run epic elite then melee brings something to the table. It's the rest of the game where melee is still utterly useless. The rest of the game is where most of us are at.

    It's about what is good for the game. I'm going to be a ranger till they put me in the ground.

  20. #80
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    With all due respect Raithe,

    I've never seen it. Sure repeaters are powerful weapons and many shot is a powerful ability that outshines many. Then again, khopeshes are powerful weapons and Power Attack, Maximize, Empower Spell, are powerful abilities that outshine many.

    I'm wondering if we're not coming from different perspectives. In my experience, 1-20 ranged weapon characters simply aren't as overpowered as you present. The only thing, in my experience, that even comes close were the old machine gun Wail of the Banshee Pale Masters, but that's long since dead.

    Perhaps you're speaking from the perspective in Epic content? Or Epic fully capped destinies with the perfect gear set and twists?

    In all seriousness, if you can point me to a ranged ranger build that's anywhere close to effective 1-20 as you seem to be presenting please shoot me a copy. I've tried many times and have found the experience extremely anemic.

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