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  1. #21
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do you understand that "WAI" is pure garbage and only in it's bugged manner was it worth using at all?
    Wrong.

    It was barely worth using in its bugged manner, as IPS (at least 100% more damage) took precedence the vast majority of the time anyway. It is worth keeping on constantly for every character that has semi-decent ranged ability but does not have IPS.

    It also obviously superior to have it on when there is only one mob you are fighting (assuming the mob lasts longer than the mode toggle sequence). Whether it is imparting maximum damage or not is a matter of choice and gameplay, which is exactly how it should be.

  2. #22
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    To be constructive, here are a few changes that would make archers focus more worthwhile (while preserving the no moving/manyshot fix):

    • reduce the delay from 3 seconds to 1, or remove it entirely.
    • tumbling should not clear stacks since you cannot shoot while tumbling.
    • shot on the run (that useless feat that nobody takes?) should allow you to stack archers focus while moving
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  3. #23
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    You know, after using Archer's Focus in game for a bit...I'd say it's even more bugged than it was before.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    To be constructive, here are a few changes that would make archers focus more worthwhile (while preserving the no moving/manyshot fix):

    • reduce the delay from 3 seconds to 1, or remove it entirely.
    • tumbling should not clear stacks since you cannot shoot while tumbling.
    • shot on the run (that useless feat that nobody takes?) should allow you to stack archers focus while moving
    These are good ideas. I especially like the last one. It would certainly give a reason to take Dodge, Mobility, and Shot On The Run

  5. #25
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    You know, after using Archer's Focus in game for a bit...I'd say it's even more bugged than it was before.
    "Good" or bad? If good news maybe this information should be locked up in a "safe" or something.

  6. #26
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    So before the Juggernaut build concept came out the first person who came up with it...
    The fact that you think the Juggernaught build was some sort of diverse invention before it became popular is why you are throwing a fit, and I am mostly going to ignore you...

    Notice that I've been following DDO (if not playing it often) for its entire lifetime. The Juggernaught is nothing new, its the same-old, diversity-less, range-trumps-all-tactics boring stupidity that someone at Turbine finds fun (or they are ignorant of it). My beef with the game is MOSTLY with Artis and casters, but rangers have their moments of exploitation as well (as do monks and rogues, occasionally).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The fact that you think the Juggernaught build was some sort of diverse invention before it became popular is why you are throwing a fit, and I am mostly going to ignore you...

    Notice that I've been following DDO (if not playing it often) for its entire lifetime. The Juggernaught is nothing new, its the same-old, diversity-less, range-trumps-all-tactics boring stupidity that someone at Turbine finds fun (or they are ignorant of it). My beef with the game is MOSTLY with Artis and casters, but rangers have their moments of exploitation as well (as do monks and rogues, occasionally).
    Well you're just awesome then. Congrats to you. You win an award.

    I can assure that as I sit here and enjoy my coffee laughing at you and how high you hold yourself that I am far from throwing a fit. Maybe a fit of laughter. People like you crack me up. I'll stand back while you save DDO.

    Also please note I don't have a Juggernaut build. Doesn't appeal to me. I brought it up because I've seen people flock to it recently so I thought it a good example of how,as you point out its a same old same old that draws people in.

    So let me see if I have you correct though. If anyone plays an arti or a caster (wiz or sorc. Does druid count if it is a caster spec'd one, but who would do that huh?), or any melee such as a barb, fighter, or paladin then they are either useless or sheep. An useless people and sheep can't enjoy themselves clearly.

    So only some rangers, some monks, some rogues (wondering which are OK with you) and possibly divines, but maybe not an FVS evoker build (because that's a caster even though they have been nerfed quite a bit), are OK to play.

    If this is the case it sounds like Turbine wasted a ton of dev time programming those other class which you don't like. Maybe if you had told them from day one, since you've been here since the beginning and know everything, then maybe you could have saved them a ton of time and money.

    You crack me up. Please keep going. I know you will. You can't help it.

  8. #28
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    You know, for a game that promotes moving combat as one of its top assets, they sure have put alot of mechanics into the game that require people to stand still now in order to benefit from damage increases.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #29
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Except if you brought any melee along you already gimped yourself. Ranged groups can kill 90% of mobs before they ever even reach the party (or the party reaches them).

    Which is why Archer's Focus while moving can in fact be a severe hindrance to retaining customers. Five rangers on Archer's Focus while one is Manyshotting can bring what should have been a survivable mob down before you can blink.

    The arrogance on the forums today of everyone assuming that the game revolves around their own little ineffective methods is making my head hurt.
    You have been posting that ranged is OP for years now. I can count on one hand the number of people who agreed with you on that, and most of them are gone. Meanwhile, in other news, without many shot (the one redeeming burst DPS multiplier in ranged combat) ranged DPS was just starting to look competitive. In FOT it actually had a use other than burst DPS before swapping back over to melee.

    Turning AF off because someone moved is about as terribad as turning off PA because a melee moved to gain position. If the game continues to add DPS mechanics that require you to stand still just to be optimal, we will soon look like we are playing turn based D&D all over again.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #30
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Except if you brought any melee along you already gimped yourself. Ranged groups can kill 90% of mobs before they ever even reach the party (or the party reaches them).

    Which is why Archer's Focus while moving can in fact be a severe hindrance to retaining customers. Five rangers on Archer's Focus while one is Manyshotting can bring what should have been a survivable mob down before you can blink.

    The arrogance on the forums today of everyone assuming that the game revolves around their own little ineffective methods is making my head hurt.
    AWESOME, someone who for the sake of being contrary is going to pretend that all ranged focus parties are a common thing in the game.

    All I have to say is: this change freed up a feat for me as it is now utterly useless (except as a prerequisite which I don't need). This feat was good because it DIDN'T exactly match the decription, and stacks took a reasonable amount of time to count off, so you could get SOME benefit over more than a single battle... 30% damage boost at full stacks was hardly OP and was also rarely achieved for more than a few shots.

    Changes that make feats drop back into the realm of useless are not good changes, and even well meaning (I guess?) contrarian arguments that appear to support making feats useless -- using some esoteric tenuous link to overall combat balance as their "reasoning" -- seem rather misguided and far fetched.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 05-23-2013 at 03:20 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    AWESOME, someone who for the sake of being contrary is going to pretend that all ranged focus parties are a common thing in the game.


    All I have to say is: this change freed up a feat for me as it is now utterly useless (except as a prerequisite which I don't need).

    Changes that make feats drop back into the realm of useless are not good changes, and even well meaning (I guess?) contrarian arguments using some esoteric tenuous link to overall combat balance seem rather misguided and far fetched.
    Except that Archer's Focus is a sub-feat of Precise Shot. So, you get it for free without spending anything and, if you want Improved Precise Shot, you still need Precise Shot.

  12. #32
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Except that Archer's Focus is a sub-feat of Precise Shot. So, you get it for free without spending anything and, if you want Improved Precise Shot, you still need Precise Shot.
    If you ahve to take precise shot to get it, its not "free without spending anything". It was put in to make precise shot more attractive.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #33
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    As much as i liked it, it was pretty obvious it wasn't working right before. I could generally keep at least some level of stack going almost all the time. It stayed on when i manyshotted, and i believe, even when i switched to improved precise shot. The stacks started going down, but it didn't clear.

    I'm not completely against the idea of it only applying when standing still, it kind of makes sense. The stacks need to build up faster, though. You should be able to reach the maximum amount in maybe 8 to 10 seconds.

  14. #34
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    As much as i liked it, it was pretty obvious it wasn't working right before. I could generally keep at least some level of stack going almost all the time. It stayed on when i manyshotted, and i believe, even when i switched to improved precise shot. The stacks started going down, but it didn't clear.

    I'm not completely against the idea of it only applying when standing still, it kind of makes sense. The stacks need to build up faster, though. You should be able to reach the maximum amount in maybe 8 to 10 seconds.
    Well, actually I guess there are at least as much descriptions wrong as bug on feats, so it is hard to say it wasn't completely WAI. At least as you said it could work like the Runearm charge, where you may not loose all or it just drop at a faster rate that you managed to get the stacks. Thus it would at least allow you to sidestep to e;g. avoid an incoming attack without loosing all.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  15. #35
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    So I've played with this a bit on several chars now, I have a mechanic (ranged only), a pure ranger (both melee and ranged) and a fighter hybrid who uses repeaters situationally. Apart from the obvious bug with melee weapons, AF seems to more or less work as originally intended now.

    Obviously it has huge impact for people who were used to kite stuff around using monk speed, spring boost, leap of faith and whatnot while still taking advantage of the increased damage. It's useless for kiting and mostly useless for soloing now.

    In "regular" groups, where melees take the aggro and the archers pew pew things from the distance, it's use is reduced but it's still beneficial. I just did a CitW on my mechanic and I was able to build up a few stacks in many fights and I had the full 15 stack on a few times throughout the raid.

    While monkchers and other purely ranged builds are not going to be impressed, I personally believe that one feat that gave the Precise Shot ability AND basically a permanent +30% ranged damage was overpowered. It feels more reasonable now and it's still a useful feat, I won't consider dropping it on any of my characters that use ranged weapons, including the one that doesn't have room for IPS.
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  16. #36
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micron View Post
    So I've played with this a bit on several chars now, I have a mechanic (ranged only), a pure ranger (both melee and ranged) and a fighter hybrid who uses repeaters situationally. Apart from the obvious bug with melee weapons, AF seems to more or less work as originally intended now.

    Obviously it has huge impact for people who were used to kite stuff around using monk speed, spring boost, leap of faith and whatnot while still taking advantage of the increased damage. It's useless for kiting and mostly useless for soloing now.

    In "regular" groups, where melees take the aggro and the archers pew pew things from the distance, it's use is reduced but it's still beneficial. I just did a CitW on my mechanic and I was able to build up a few stacks in many fights and I had the full 15 stack on a few times throughout the raid.

    While monkchers and other purely ranged builds are not going to be impressed, I personally believe that one feat that gave the Precise Shot ability AND basically a permanent +30% ranged damage was overpowered. It feels more reasonable now and it's still a useful feat, I won't consider dropping it on any of my characters that use ranged weapons, including the one that doesn't have room for IPS.
    Except monkchers were generally using IPS as +100% or more damage is much greater than +30% damage...Archer's Focus was primarily reserved for special encounters (think FoT, Tor dragons, or EE boss fights) by smart monkchers anyways. Basically, my monkcher went from IPS 90-95% of the time (depending on how much Tor/FoT I was running) to 99.9% of the time (still useful in a very small number of fights: EN/EH velah, shroud part 4/5, ToD part 2 and 3, possibly one or two other areas...but generally in much less often run content).
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Except if you brought any melee along you already gimped yourself. Ranged groups can kill 90% of mobs before they ever even reach the party (or the party reaches them).

    Which is why Archer's Focus while moving can in fact be a severe hindrance to retaining customers. Five rangers on Archer's Focus while one is Manyshotting can bring what should have been a survivable mob down before you can blink.

    The arrogance on the forums today of everyone assuming that the game revolves around their own little ineffective methods is making my head hurt.
    Sounds like a good reason for a nerf.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Except monkchers were generally using IPS as +100% or more damage is much greater than +30% damage...Archer's Focus was primarily reserved for special encounters (think FoT, Tor dragons, or EE boss fights) by smart monkchers anyways. Basically, my monkcher went from IPS 90-95% of the time (depending on how much Tor/FoT I was running) to 99.9% of the time (still useful in a very small number of fights: EN/EH velah, shroud part 4/5, ToD part 2 and 3, possibly one or two other areas...but generally in much less often run content).
    Yes, I was thinking of Tor, raid bosses etc., I agree IPS is much more efficient where you deal with multiple mobs.

    I can still see a lot of opportunities to use AF in many situations, especially seeing as you don't lose all your stacks if you have to move and can resume building them up when you've stopped, and it's still a worthwhile feat that gives two beneficial abilities, whereas before it was OP, as I said I believe PS + 30% dmg is too much of a benefit from just one feat (not counting Point Blank as that his its own considerable benefit).
    Last edited by Micron; 05-23-2013 at 05:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
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  19. #39
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Except monkchers were generally using IPS as +100% or more damage is much greater than +30% damage...Archer's Focus was primarily reserved for special encounters (think FoT, Tor dragons, or EE boss fights) by smart monkchers anyways. Basically, my monkcher went from IPS 90-95% of the time (depending on how much Tor/FoT I was running) to 99.9% of the time (still useful in a very small number of fights: EN/EH velah, shroud part 4/5, ToD part 2 and 3, possibly one or two other areas...but generally in much less often run content).
    Haha man you crack me try noobcher instead of smart monkcher. You can tell you have barely ever played an archer. I still use it a lot personnally. It is great in FOT actually on the stromreaver and truthful one. We tank both those targets so an archer really does not have to move and quite frankly I would not want to anyway because that would decrease my dps because that might mean miss shots on those two targets with movement. Yeah moving as an archer might actually mean missing shots so unless your getting IPS lined (not needed in FOT) or avoided damage shrug. Most quests on boss's it actually is useful presuming the bosses havea little hit points. I just used it in Madstone Epic Elite on teh skellly bosses myself the other day on my ranged ranger.

    monkeyarcher did have some good suggestsion I especially wish it took less long to get to 30%.
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  20. #40
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    Raithe, there is a saying... Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. You've provided your word and little else. That's hardly extraordinary on a web board, in fact that's about as ordinary as it gets. You've made outrageous claims of how common certain types of groups are and how rare other types are. Prove it. Put up or shut up. Not a single person has come forward to say "Yeah man, Raithe's right! I get all-ranged groups all the time!" In fact, quite the opposite. So rather than this being a pathetic microcosm of Chai's little world, it really appears to be a microcosm of yours. Ever consider that? No, of course not. Because people like you are far too self-centered to ever consider that they might actually be the aberrant ones. You take it for granted that you're the norm and everyone else is the freak. And anyone who argues otherwise is just another freak who doesn't get it.

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