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  1. #1
    Community Member PestWulf's Avatar
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    Default Archer's focus fixed and probably shouldn't have been

    Hey,

    Archer's focus now kind of works like it says in the text, however the result of it now working as intended makes it exceptionally hard to utilize.

    First, any movement now removes the focus buff that allows you to start gaining stacks and it takes around 5 seconds of standing still to get the buff back and allow stacks to start accumulating again.

    The stacks themselves have a three second duration which with Rapid reload and Rapid fire on a repeater build is just enough time to get the next shot off before you lose a stack. When fully stacked you get a nice 30% damage boost to your ranged attacks.

    Also, I am uncertain under what conditions, but often times after moving the entire stack will vanish. So the only time this ability can ever be used effectively is when not moving at all. I just can't find very many instances of ever being able or allowed to do that. Shooting a portal is about all I can think of.

    Is that it's intended use? To augment ranged portal destruction? I had hoped it was meant to help augment ranged damage in general but that is definitely not it's practical use. You can't keep up with a group, you can't move out of the way of spells or dodge, all of this makes the ability inconsequential in the way this game has to be played.

    If it's just meant to kill portals, fine. But if it was meant for more, it would be good to re-evaluate it as it is definitely lacking now. I had originally thought it was meant as an alternative to the Improved Precise Shot, giving an archer the option to toggle Archers Focus on instead for greater single target damage at the cost of being able to hit groups but the reality is that you can't do much to leverage the ability as standing still in this game is rarely ever an option.

    Just some food for thought.

  2. #2
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PestWulf View Post
    Hey,

    Archer's focus now kind of works like it says in the text, however the result of it now working as intended makes it exceptionally hard to utilize.

    First, any movement now removes the focus buff that allows you to start gaining stacks and it takes around 5 seconds of standing still to get the buff back and allow stacks to start accumulating again.

    The stacks themselves have a three second duration which with Rapid reload and Rapid fire on a repeater build is just enough time to get the next shot off before you lose a stack. When fully stacked you get a nice 30% damage boost to your ranged attacks.

    Also, I am uncertain under what conditions, but often times after moving the entire stack will vanish. So the only time this ability can ever be used effectively is when not moving at all. I just can't find very many instances of ever being able or allowed to do that. Shooting a portal is about all I can think of.

    Is that it's intended use? To augment ranged portal destruction? I had hoped it was meant to help augment ranged damage in general but that is definitely not it's practical use. You can't keep up with a group, you can't move out of the way of spells or dodge, all of this makes the ability inconsequential in the way this game has to be played.

    If it's just meant to kill portals, fine. But if it was meant for more, it would be good to re-evaluate it as it is definitely lacking now. I had originally thought it was meant as an alternative to the Improved Precise Shot, giving an archer the option to toggle Archers Focus on instead for greater single target damage at the cost of being able to hit groups but the reality is that you can't do much to leverage the ability as standing still in this game is rarely ever an option.

    Just some food for thought.
    I'm sorry that this change slipped through our net as we were putting together the Release Notes. After reading your post I went into our documentation system and found this, which is the official dev note on this change:

    If you are not currently using the Manyshot ability and have been stationary for 3 seconds, while you are stationary you gain On Damage: Up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times.

    So yes, it does indeed look like the removal of the effect upon movement is intended.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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  3. #3
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I'm sorry that this change slipped through our net as we were putting together the Release Notes. After reading your post I went into our documentation system and found this, which is the official dev note on this change:

    If you are not currently using the Manyshot ability and have been stationary for 3 seconds, while you are stationary you gain On Damage: Up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times.

    So yes, it does indeed look like the removal of the effect upon movement is intended.
    Shame really. That would take it from an always-on stance for me to a "I guess it can be used on those boring boss fights were no one moves and we just wack for a long time"

  4. #4
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I'm sorry that this change slipped through our net as we were putting together the Release Notes. After reading your post I went into our documentation system and found this, which is the official dev note on this change:

    If you are not currently using the Manyshot ability and have been stationary for 3 seconds, while you are stationary you gain On Damage: Up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times.

    So yes, it does indeed look like the removal of the effect upon movement is intended.
    I would like to say that the developers should look at making it MORE desirable rather than LESS desirable...it was barely competitive before, now it's trash that almost won't see use (people say use it for boss fights, but I don't know any boss fight where the extra DPS would help and you can actually stand still for even several seconds without being absolutely destroyed).
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  5. #5
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Shame really. That would take it from an always-on stance for me to a "I guess it can be used on those boring boss fights were no one moves and we just wack for a long time"
    You can still leave it always on. It doesn't interfere with any other stances as far as I have seen. Of course it is then just always on and always practically impossible to gain any benefit from... *shrug*

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I would like to say that the developers should look at making it MORE desirable rather than LESS desirable...it was barely competitive before, now it's trash that almost won't see use (people say use it for boss fights, but I don't know any boss fight where the extra DPS would help and you can actually stand still for even several seconds without being absolutely destroyed).
    Shroud parts 4 and 5, for sure. When I had time to run the Shroud and ran it on my ranger, I would use it every time in those parts. In fact, I could often use it in part 1 and 2 and get good use of it. However, now that all stacks disappear when you move - which, from the description, was always intended - it is nearly useless - and that is something I recognized when they rolled this out. When I am on my ranger, I am almost never stationary - ever. The extra damage when I was, though, was nice. Too bad I won't be using this anymore.

  7. #7
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    You can still leave it always on. It doesn't interfere with any other stances as far as I have seen. Of course it is then just always on and always practically impossible to gain any benefit from... *shrug*
    Except, maybe, I dunno...Improved Precise Shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Shroud parts 4 and 5, for sure. When I had time to run the Shroud and ran it on my ranger, I would use it every time in those parts. In fact, I could often use it in part 1 and 2 and get good use of it. However, now that all stacks disappear when you move - which, from the description, was always intended - it is nearly useless - and that is something I recognized when they rolled this out. When I am on my ranger, I am almost never stationary - ever. The extra damage when I was, though, was nice. Too bad I won't be using this anymore.
    I'd hardly even consider Shroud in this - it's not even a real consideration, as even elite has pretty much been a faceroll since u14.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    You can still leave it always on. It doesn't interfere with any other stances as far as I have seen. Of course it is then just always on and always practically impossible to gain any benefit from... *shrug*
    It is incompatible with Improved Precise Shot. You must choose one or the other. So, if you don't have or don't like IPS, then you're good with Archer's Focus being always on.

  9. #9

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    /facepalm

    Oh, well. I guess Precise Shot is back to it's old status as "junk feat to only take as a prerequisite." That's a shame. Was retaining stacks on movement overpowered?

    Seriously, Turbine -- y'all are prioritizing your bugs the wrong way.
    The Brotherhood of BYOH--Thelanis: Charged, WF Artificer; Venomshade, Half-Elf Monk; Poxs, Fist of an Angry God; Crash, Pale Monkster

  10. #10
    Community Member PestWulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I would like to say that the developers should look at making it MORE desirable rather than LESS desirable...it was barely competitive before, now it's trash that almost won't see use (people say use it for boss fights, but I don't know any boss fight where the extra DPS would help and you can actually stand still for even several seconds without being absolutely destroyed).
    Yes, that's been my experience using it as well since the fix.

    You need to move during combat for the following reasons.
    1. Line of Sight
    2. Avoid danger
    3. Keep up with party

    You can't dodge out of the way or side step to keep an enemy in line anymore nor can you maneuver to try and stay within a safe position in your party . You literally can only make use of the stacking damage buff when all three of the conditions I listed above are not a factor and allows you to act as a stationary turret. Any one of them eliminates the ability to utilize the buff.

    I couldn't imagine trying to stand still against the demon queen or nurse ratchet or any number of other bosses or boss situations that incorporate the environment and ranged or area damage. It's usefulness against most boss mobs is just idealistic and not practically sound. Literally...portals...that's about it.

    I'll still use it for a portal of course, it just mildly disappointing that now that it is working as intended that it turns out to be exceptionally not useful. It definitely needs a re-balance tweak when time allows.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I'd hardly even consider Shroud in this - it's not even a real consideration, as even elite has pretty much been a faceroll since u14.
    More or less, this is true. It still comes down a lot to communication, as I have been in groups where a few or some people refused to communicate and there was still a wipe - and that is with mostly 25's in the group. The extra damage from Archer's Focus was still helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I would like to say that the developers should look at making it MORE desirable rather than LESS desirable...it was barely competitive before, now it's trash that almost won't see use (people say use it for boss fights, but I don't know any boss fight where the extra DPS would help and you can actually stand still for even several seconds without being absolutely destroyed).
    Well this statement made me want to relog back in and respond

    The first part I agree with in making feats more desirable as opposed to less. However I would argue with your statement about not knowing any boss fights where more dps is not appreciated. In my book all dps is good dps so all added dps in a boss fight is appreciated. Heck why do people do force rituals on their weapons? Why bother with the Deadly Weapon buff? If I had to share my Hostess Cupcakes with Rosie O'Donnell to get one more point of damage per swing I'd do it. Any believe me. There wouldn't be much sharing. She's eat the whole lot.

    As for not being able to stand still; I hate kiters. Granted there are times when it is necessary, but let's be honest. On single mobs fights it reduces overall damage because you've got one person kiting doing dps while the other 11 (or 5) are swinging at air.

    I just ran CiTW and I tried Archer's Focus and it wasn't bad. For each of the Spider Queen fights I sat out of her range and stood there blasting her with my rune arm and stacked archer focus bolts. For each of the red named fights in the portals before Anna can disable teh artifacts I did the same.

    I also build my characters to be able to stand and take some hits so when I got aggro from some mobs I stood there and beat the heck out of them. Also in some large group fights it was helpful like when you have to kill the driders below and the mistresses above them after the second artifact. Just stand in the middle, Kill, turn, kill, turn, kill. Now admittedly this may not be the best stance for that situation, but it assured I didn't pull too much aggro and get overwhelmed. Same for killing legs. Stand under the alcove and kill.

    I thought it worked OK. Again though it is situational and will be something I toggle on and off based on which fight I'm at. I would certainly prefer to have some movement allowed, even if it reduces movement speed like with a rune arm charge.

  13. #13
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    You can still leave it always on. It doesn't interfere with any other stances as far as I have seen. Of course it is then just always on and always practically impossible to gain any benefit from... *shrug*
    It conflicts with Improved Precise Shot

  14. #14
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    Granted there are times when it is necessary, but let's be honest. On single mobs fights it reduces overall damage because you've got one person kiting doing dps while the other 11 (or 5) are swinging at air.
    Except if you brought any melee along you already gimped yourself. Ranged groups can kill 90% of mobs before they ever even reach the party (or the party reaches them).

    Which is why Archer's Focus while moving can in fact be a severe hindrance to retaining customers. Five rangers on Archer's Focus while one is Manyshotting can bring what should have been a survivable mob down before you can blink.
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 05-23-2013 at 07:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    Well this statement made me want to relog back in and respond

    The first part I agree with in making feats more desirable as opposed to less. However I would argue with your statement about not knowing any boss fights where more dps is not appreciated. In my book all dps is good dps so all added dps in a boss fight is appreciated. Heck why do people do force rituals on their weapons? Why bother with the Deadly Weapon buff? If I had to share my Hostess Cupcakes with Rosie O'Donnell to get one more point of damage per swing I'd do it. Any believe me. There wouldn't be much sharing. She's eat the whole lot.

    As for not being able to stand still; I hate kiters. Granted there are times when it is necessary, but let's be honest. On single mobs fights it reduces overall damage because you've got one person kiting doing dps while the other 11 (or 5) are swinging at air.

    I just ran CiTW and I tried Archer's Focus and it wasn't bad. For each of the Spider Queen fights I sat out of her range and stood there blasting her with my rune arm and stacked archer focus bolts. For each of the red named fights in the portals before Anna can disable teh artifacts I did the same.

    I also build my characters to be able to stand and take some hits so when I got aggro from some mobs I stood there and beat the heck out of them. Also in some large group fights it was helpful like when you have to kill the driders below and the mistresses above them after the second artifact. Just stand in the middle, Kill, turn, kill, turn, kill. Now admittedly this may not be the best stance for that situation, but it assured I didn't pull too much aggro and get overwhelmed. Same for killing legs. Stand under the alcove and kill.

    I thought it worked OK. Again though it is situational and will be something I toggle on and off based on which fight I'm at. I would certainly prefer to have some movement allowed, even if it reduces movement speed like with a rune arm charge.
    It's not being unable to kite that's the problem. It's being unable to move to react to your surroundings (important in things like FoT) without taking a DPS cut.
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  16. #16
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    It is incompatible with Improved Precise Shot. You must choose one or the other. So, if you don't have or don't like IPS, then you're good with Archer's Focus being always on.
    Ahhh. I stand corrected. I tried to think of anything that I didn't have on my ranged character that might interfere, but IPS didn't occur to me. Also, "good" with archer's focus on is probably not quite accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    Ahhh. I stand corrected. I tried to think of anything that I didn't have on my ranged character that might interfere, but IPS didn't occur to me. Also, "good" with archer's focus on is probably not quite accurate.
    Well, by "good" I meant "okay" - and I just realized what that whooshing sound was!

  18. #18
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    Blarg. Say one thing and it totally gets taken out of context. Or perhaps I didn't say it right.

    In any case yes. If you are in a group of 12 ranged or even mostly ranged players then yes. I don't very often find myself in these groups, but I suppose static groups might.

    The example you point out though shows that it is in fact something that can be useful (as it is) which is what I was saying. You also seem to be pretty high on yourself and your own techniques and maybe that's what is giving you a headache. I.e. if you brought a melee along you're already gimped? Yes we should all play ranged. That will make for a fun game with lots of variance. There'll be about as much diversity in DDO as there is at the University of Vermont. (PS I'm sure this isn't what YOU meant, but see how fun it can be to misconstrue?)

    Also as I said I will likely toggle it situation-ally. I probably wouldn't use it in FOT, but maybe when destroying the crystal I might switch it on for a bit of extra dps. If someone else is kiting the mobs at the end and I can for the most part sit for a short period and range the dragon I might switch it on. As soon as I have to move I can easily turn it off and put on Improved Precise Shot. It's like how I treat my rune arm charging. I don't run around with it on all the time because it slows me down. When I can be stationary for a few seconds I turn it on. Then when I need to jet and be mobile I turn it off and use the ALT key as necessary.

    Also not having it on is not a DPS cut. Turning it on is a DPS addition if you are standing still. By not turning it while standing still THAT is a dps cut. When you move change stances. The game isn't always about just either standing still or moving. I mean you switch weapons based on the DR for a particular mob. Why wouldn't you change stances based on your current ability to be mobile. I don't ALWAYS find myself having to be moving. Sometimes I can stand and deliver. When I can, on goes the feat. It's simple and it's extra dps.

  19. #19
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    That will make for a fun game with lots of variance.
    I am here, precisely, to promote variety in DDO so that it can stay afloat a few more years. Hopefully by then someone will have relieved Hasbro and Blizzard of their completely mismanaged intellectual property empires.

    The problem is that is NOT why you are here...

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    There'll be about as much diversity in DDO as...
    The diversity that exists in DDO is entire driven by people who don't know what they are doing. That should never be considered a valid basis for game design. You could justify ANY feature you dreamt of simply by stating that some poor soul who just wandered in wouldn't know how to use it properly anyway. Obviously, just any feature you dreamt of is NOT necessarily what is best for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post
    Also not having it on is not a DPS cut...
    I was debating mentioning this as well, but my head hurts...

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I'm sorry that this change slipped through our net as we were putting together the Release Notes. After reading your post I went into our documentation system and found this, which is the official dev note on this change:

    If you are not currently using the Manyshot ability and have been stationary for 3 seconds, while you are stationary you gain On Damage: Up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times.

    So yes, it does indeed look like the removal of the effect upon movement is intended.
    Do you understand that "WAI" is pure garbage and only in it's bugged manner was it worth using at all?

    Of course the devs don't understand that, they'd have to actually play the game to get it.

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