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  1. #21
    2016, 2018 Player Council Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    This is an interesting Theory Build.... However, I can't help but think that for DPS, you would be better served to utilize Avatar of Nature because they get an additional x1 to their critical multiplier. If you're using dual balizardes, you're looking at 30% chance to land a critical at a x4 multiplier (not counting additional multipliers coming from Paladin Smites). The Wood-woad form adds a nice chunk of damage (as well as boosts to your constitution and strength), and if you're casting buffs often, you will find that maintaining spirit points is rather sustainable. Though you would end up probably needing to twist Sense Weakness, primal scream, and one other (I personally would recommend Endless Faith for unlimited mana - this is particularly nice for Bladeforged varients who use the Reconstruct SLA).

    Just my 10 cents. >.>
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  2. #22
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's a tie, actually, with the advantage going to strength by virtue of it being permanent, whereas the cha method is a temporary buff you have to keep re-applying and could eventually run out of.

    18 str = +4 damage & +4 tactical dc
    12 cha = +1 str (no effect, unless maybe you go for the full +5 primal scream?)

    16 str = +3 damage & +3 tactical dc
    16 cha = +3 str = +1 mod
    Yes you're right thanks for correcting that. Obviously 1 modifier doesn't always mean 1 dc because you need an even strength. However, doesn't turn undead recharge every 2 minutes? If DM still uses turn undead charges after the pass that means you can keep DM on indefinitely because the last rank lasts 2 minutes. Then again strength is the safer path if turn undead is used for something else as well after the pass or if DM has limited uses.

  3. #23
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Fun read

    but now I'm a bit confused--are you going for rapiers or for daggers?

    Or perhaps your intention is to get the competence increase to dagger threat and switch between the two as needed?

    I'd also like to point out that when PDK becomes TR-able (and I've little doubt Turbine won't capitalize on the cash cow that is Iconic TR eventually), we can make our paladins basically full CHA if they're using the correct weapons:

    "Cormyrian Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength (whichever is higher) for Hit and Damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords." (from Dev diary)

    Longswords are ****--and I've tried 'em all--but Bswords and Shortswords have quite a lot of potential to achieve the goals you've mentioned, with Bswords having the interesting twist of som evasion tanking possibility and shortswords having the ability to stay centered with enhancements... all tasty stuff.

    As far as Ellis' point about DM being temporary, I honestly don't remember the last time I ran out of turns on my paladin even without Endless Turning twisted. Combined with a paladin that is max CHA and endless turning and the new DM duration, I've no doubt that DM can be sustained indefinitely. Exceptions notably including shortmanning or possibly if you use your turns for Light the Dark.
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  4. #24
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    *snip*
    He will go for rapiers for now, but he's apparently looking for some certain effect(s) on Cormyrian daggers. With the new assassin enchancements daggers would have a crit profile of 16-20/x3. Coupled with exalted smites from KotC daggers would be 14-20/x5 under smites. This means that life stealing becomes a very nice effect and coupled with killer you could have a +20% doublestrike as well if you get the kills quickly. So there is a lot of potential life draining here.

    For EE trash, I think he's looking for something along the lines of 2xSacrificial dagger which would have a 20% chance to drain 1d3 levels under the new enchancements, excluding smites. DDOwiki is kind of vague on the effects of the Cormyrian daggers and I don't know if life stealing is a possible effect (if it isn't I have no idea what Arlathen is going for ).

  5. #25
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    He will go for rapiers for now, but he's apparently looking for some certain effect(s) on Cormyrian daggers. With the new assassin enchancements daggers would have a crit profile of 16-20/x3.
    The certain fight club effect I'm pretty sure he is referring to Life Stealing.

    The assassin enhancement T5:
    Knife Specialization: Gain +1 competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

    would take 19-20x2 normal dagger critical profile to 18-20x3, which with IC: piercing would be 15-20x3, not 16-20x3.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Coupled with exalted smites from KotC daggers would be 14-20/x5 under smites. This means that life stealing becomes a very nice effect and coupled with killer you could have a +20% doublestrike as well if you get the kills quickly. So there is a lot of potential life draining here.
    T4 Exalted Smite in the alpha is +2 Crit multiplier and threat range on smites, which would take 15-20x3 to 13-20x5.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    For EE trash, I think he's looking for something along the lines of 2xSacrificial dagger which would have a 20% chance to drain 1d3 levels under the new enchancements, excluding smites. DDOwiki is kind of vague on the effects of the Cormyrian daggers and I don't know if life stealing is a possible effect (if it isn't I have no idea what Arlathen is going for ).
    Cormyrian weapons are confirmed to have Life Stealing as a possible modifier.

    I might be making a mistake in that math as I rarely do any hard calculations in DDO, but yeah.
    Last edited by SealedInSong; 06-03-2013 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Infrariot's better math
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  6. #26
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Yes you're right thanks for correcting that. Obviously 1 modifier doesn't always mean 1 dc because you need an even strength. However, doesn't turn undead recharge every 2 minutes? If DM still uses turn undead charges after the pass that means you can keep DM on indefinitely because the last rank lasts 2 minutes. Then again strength is the safer path if turn undead is used for something else as well after the pass or if DM has limited uses.
    Turn undead only recharges for a Paladin if you have the US ED Twist; Eternal Turning or something. Or I guess if you take enough Cleric levels.

  7. #27
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    The certain fight club effect I'm pretty sure he is referring to Life Stealing.

    The assassin enhancement T5:
    Knife Specialization: Gain +1 competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

    would take 19-20x2 normal dagger critical profile to 18-20x3, which with IC: piercing would be 15-20x3, not 16-20x3.



    T4 Exalted Smite in the alpha is +2 Crit multiplier and threat range on smites, which would take 15-20x3 to 13-20x5.
    I was under the impression that Improved Critical adds to the base critical threat and always applies first before all other effects. For example, a Kensei III with Kensei Specified Weapon Mastery III and IC:Slashing wielding a khopesh has a threat range of 16-20, not 15-20. Base 19-20, IC:Slashing brings it to 17-20 and -1 for Kensei III brings it to 16-20. I wasn't aware this has or will be changed. Or is this competence bonus something special then? If it works like you say then all the better obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Cormyrian weapons are confirmed to have Life Stealing as a possible modifier.

    With a critical threat range of 13-20, the chance to level drain would be ~42% (8/19 rolls critting, rolls of 1 excluded), not 20% under the new enhancements. If your math were correct for 15-20x3, it would be 31% chance to enervate (6/19 rolls critting, rolls of 1 excluded), not 20%.

    I might be making a mistake in that math as I rarely do any hard calculations in DDO, but yeah.
    I actually said excluding smites to point out that it's quite a lot without the smites, but my percentage is wrong. It should be 25% not 20%. Regards to your math, I'm not sure I follow your logic here or you made a mistake like you said. You either roll within the critical threat range or you don't as I see it. I don't understand why you exclude 1. A 1 is not a critical hit obviously, but should still be counted. You roll on a range of 1-20 and if you if your critical threat range is 13-20 you will have a 8/20 = 40% chance of rolling withing this range. If you roll 1-12 you don't critical hit. If you look at weapon tooltips in the game they have the same percentages on the Critical Roll line. 19-20 has 10%, 18-20 has 15% and so on because we're using a D20 and 1 more threat is 5% more probability to roll within the threat range. All this math is of course excluding the critical confirmation roll which in the end decides what happens (not a problem in the later levels). Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about all this.

    Can you get life stealing on other Cormyrian weapons than daggers? A scimitar or rapier beats a dagger if the critical threat is 16-20 and not 15-20 for daggers. Rapiers or scimitars with just Improved Critical will have a threat of 13-20 compared to 14-20 for the daggers using exalted smites. The daggers will critical hit for more damage thanks to the T5 enhancement, but the scimitar and rapier will critical more often. If the point is to drain as fast as possible then rapiers and scimitars are better for the job.

  8. #28
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Competence threat range increase

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    I was under the impression that Improved Critical adds to the base critical threat and always applies first before all other effects. For example, a Kensei III with Kensei Specified Weapon Mastery III and IC:Slashing wielding a khopesh has a threat range of 16-20, not 15-20. Base 19-20, IC:Slashing brings it to 17-20 and -1 for Kensei III brings it to 16-20. I wasn't aware this has or will be changed. Or is this competence bonus something special then? If it works like you say then all the better obviously.
    I've always seen calculations indicating competence came before IC, i.e. Pulverizer and Kensei. I could definitely be wrong about that without someone providing some citation regarding each. It's very possible that Turbine's shoddy coding/labeling has resulted in different abilities with the same 'competence' bonus being calculated differently.


    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    I actually said excluding smites to point out that it's quite a lot without the smites, but my percentage is wrong. It should be 25% not 20%. Regards to your math, I'm not sure I follow your logic here or you made a mistake like you said. You either roll within the critical threat range or you don't as I see it. I don't understand why you exclude 1. A 1 is not a critical hit obviously, but should still be counted. You roll on a range of 1-20 and if you if your critical threat range is 13-20 you will have a 8/20 = 40% chance of rolling withing this range. If you roll 1-12 you don't critical hit. If you look at weapon tooltips in the game they have the same percentages on the Critical Roll line. 19-20 has 10%, 18-20 has 15% and so on because we're using a D20 and 1 more threat is 5% more probability to roll within the threat range. All this math is of course excluding the critical confirmation roll which in the end decides what happens (not a problem in the later levels). Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about all this.
    Your argument is right, I think! I definitely don't think I should've excluded ones. See, this is why I shouldn't do the math. Yeah, you roll a 1 and it should still be counted.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Can you get life stealing on other Cormyrian weapons than daggers? A scimitar or rapier beats a dagger if the critical threat is 16-20 and not 15-20 for daggers. Rapiers or scimitars with just Improved Critical will have a threat of 13-20 compared to 14-20 for the daggers using exalted smites. The daggers will critical hit for more damage thanks to the T5 enhancement, but the scimitar and rapier will critical more often. If the point is to drain as fast as possible then rapiers and scimitars are better for the job.
    Yeah, it appears so.

    Anyway, thanks for your well-reasoned responses to my bad math.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    I've always seen calculations indicating competence came before IC, i.e. Pulverizer and Kensei. I could definitely be wrong about that without someone providing some citation regarding each. It's very possible that Turbine's shoddy coding/labeling has resulted in different abilities with the same 'competence' bonus being calculated differently.
    on one of banes pally lives i can tell you that an esos was definatly a 13-20 crit range.

    for what its worth

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  10. #30
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default As I thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobgoblin View Post
    on one of banes pally lives i can tell you that an esos was definatly a 13-20 crit range.

    for what its worth

    hob
    Base: 18-20x3
    Kensei competence threat range: 17-20x3
    Improved Critical: 13-20x3

    So at the very least, I think I can find citation for Kensei and Pulverizer applying competence threat range increases before IC feat.

    That's good to know.

    If assassin knife specialization follows this trend, there's a 15illusionist/5assassin build I've been really wanting to try out.
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  11. #31
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Base: 18-20x3
    Kensei competence threat range: 17-20x3
    Improved Critical: 13-20x3

    So at the very least, I think I can find citation for Kensei and Pulverizer applying competence threat range increases before IC feat.

    That's good to know.

    If assassin knife specialization follows this trend, there's a 15illusionist/5assassin build I've been really wanting to try out.
    I assume Hobgoblin meant with exalted smites. I find it very hard to believe he was constantly wielding an eSoS with a 13-20 threat range. I know for a fact that Kensei III is at least applied after Improved Critical (the weapons box under the inventory says 16-20 for khopeshes). The wiki also states that Kensei III is applied second. From http://ddowiki.com/page/Critical_threat:
    "The Fighter Kensei Mastery III enhancement will add 1 to the threat range of a single specific weapon type, such as Kukri. This stacks with Improved Critical or Keen/Impact, but is applied second."

    Doesn't say anything about Pulverizer though, but I would wager it is the same.

  12. #32

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    Wow, walk away for 5 minutes and the thread explodes....

    Ok, yes, I want Cormyrian Life-Stealing Rapiers. Cat's out the bag so that's what I want to spend a gazillion years grinding for when I hit level cap. Massive Strength, High Stun DCs, Adrenaline & Overwhelming Force & Sense Weakness, and then cap it off with the ability to Life Drain as well would make it pretty rediculous in terms of trash destruction.

    Secondly, I was looking at the Knife Specialisation from the new Assassin PrE simply because I wouldn't need to do the Challenge grind with a pair of Sacrifical Daggers from Impossible Demands. However, I understand the dispute over a 16-20 or 15-20 crit range, so we'll just have to see how that one pans out in the future.

    I must admit I've been back at the grind on my Stormbringer in LOB raiding, so haven't gotten much work done on my Inquisitor.... stay tuned for updates though...
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Doesn't say anything about Pulverizer though, but I would wager it is the same.
    Pulverizer is applied before imp crit, I have dualwielding stalwart with Mornhs, crits on 15 -20.
    I assume kensei with dual Mornhs would be at 14-20, which looks bloody amazing, especially with Anvil of Thunder, which is okay even on 15-20, you get stun chance on both hands. In addition to standard stunning blow.

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