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  1. #1

    Default Theorybuild - The Dark Inquisitor

    The Dark Inquisitor
    The Dark Inquisitor is a thematic theorybuild that tries to epitomise the melee DPS of a Paladin while retaining a great deal of flavour and theme.


    The Theme
    Even the Silver Flame or the Purple Dragon Knights need agents to uproot evil wherever it may lie. And with the impending conspiracies of Shar attempting to overrun the kingdom of Cormyr, now more than ever is a good time for these Agents and Investigators to step forth into those feared places and shadowed alleys find the root of any such Evil.

    Such an Inquisitor or Agent would hold true to their tenets of faith and code of honour, but have the flexibility in dealing with people on the street without immediately dealing mortal justice to every person in the path. To do so would require skills, and a marked improvement of intelligence over what is displayed by the average Paladin.


    The Core Concept
    So, I've been wanting to turn my build skills towards the Paladin class again, but this time I distinctly wanted to go the route of very strong Melee DPS with Stunning Blow. I wanted to do this without compromising on defense too much and ensuring that self-sufficiency was maintained with regards to self healing.

    So rather than the brutish full plate and Sword & Shield of the more usual Paladin, I was thinking along the lines of a two weapon fighting Paladin with dual Rapiers, light armoured for Evasion, with a deep splash of Rogue for bonus Melee DPS through sneak damage and access to fully realised trap skills.

    I also want to combine this with the Fury of the Wild Destiny. The synergy between TWF, Adrenaline OVerload and Overwhelming Force is an excellent way of getting some no-fail, high damage Crowd Control into a build. Combining this with the Paladins Exalted Smites and a very high DC Stunning Blow would really stretch out the Paladin DPS.


    Item Choices
    Fitting the theme perfectly is a slew of items from the U16 module, namely Whisperchain, Bracers of Twisiting Shade and Nether Grasps combine a strong set of Trap Gear and Melee oriented combat bonuses. I've been wanting to work these items into a build for a while, and here's that opportunity.

    In terms of weaponry, I definitly want to explore Rapiers as the core Weapon choice. Drow Rapiers of the Weaponmaster or even Balizardes are good DPS options, but I think I'm going to go hunting for a nice set of Cormyrian Rapiers from running the challenges as well. I'll let your Imagination think about what I may try to get there. You could also throw a pair of Deathnips at this build if you have the spare tome pages until something better comes along - the Destiny with these weapons will make you squirm with delight at the Critical damage numbers.


    Building for the Future
    I also wanted to build in some flexibility with a view to whats coming with the Expansion (level 28 along with another Feat and Stat Point) and also with the new Enhancements later in the year. Of course its impossible to say whats actually going to happen in Live, but I think the enhancements Alpha gives a strong direction of the possibilities.

    Essentially, if I can find the AP under the new system then I'm looking at more Tactics from Kensai, more Sneak Damage from Assassin and more DPS from Knight of the Chalice. The new Knight of the Chalice Prestige tree includes some very good extras, along with making Divine Might a damn good enhancement to take.


    And I just so happen to have a suitable character to TR....
    Yes, I have a third life character already with 3 Fighter Past Lives, which fits perfectly into this potential Theorybuild. Anyways, onto the build itself...
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  2. #2

    Default Core Build

    Core Build

    Paladin 12
    - BAB 12 / 120HP Base
    - Cha to Saves
    - LOHx4
    - CMW/CLW
    - Exalted Smite 2
    - Access to HotD 2
    - Immunity to Energy Drain
    - 21% Heal Amplification

    Rogue 6
    - BAB 4 / 36HP Base
    - 4D6+6 Sneak Attack
    - Trap Skills
    - Full UMD
    - Access to Assassin 1

    Fighter 2
    - BAB 2 / 20HP
    - 2 Bonus Feats

    Human
    - Bonus Feat & Skill Point
    - Access to Human Improved Recovery


    Starting / Potential Stats
    Level 25, 36pt Human Build:
    Str: 54 = 18 Base +6Lvl +4Tome +1Race +1Class +8Item +1Exc +3Ins +3ED +2Prof +5Rage +2Guild
    Dex: 30 = 14 Base +4tome +8Item +2Ins +2Guild
    Con: 34 = 14 Base +4Tome +7Item +2Ins +5Rage +2Guild
    Int: 16 = 12 Base +4Tome
    Wis: 22 = 08 Base +3Tome +7Item +2Ins +2Guild
    Cha: 30 = 12 Base +4Tome +2Class +8Item +2Ins +2Guild

    With Level 28 and new enhancements, potential Strength pushes up to 56.

    Feats
    H. Stunning Blow
    1. TWF
    2. ITWF
    3. GTWF
    4. Power Attack
    5. Cleave
    6. Great Cleave
    7. Toughness
    F1. Precision
    F2. IC: Pierce
    E1. Overwhelming Critical
    E2. Quicken Meta-magic

    With Level 28, looking at taking either Improved Sunder or Empower Heal as the level 27 feat. Potentially Toughness could also be dropped to have both.

    Enhancements
    Human Adaptability 2
    Paladin Charisma 2
    Fighter Strength 1
    Paladin Hunter of the Dead 2
    Rogue Assassin 1
    Paladin Extra Turning 2
    Paladin Improved Turning 2
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands 2
    Rogue Damage Boost 2
    Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 1
    Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 1
    Rogue Subtle Backstabbing 1
    Improved Hide 2
    Improved Move Silently 2
    Rogue Haste Boost 2
    Human Versatility 2
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil 3
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice 1
    Paladin Exalted Smite 2
    Racial Toughness 2
    Paladin Toughness 2
    Paladin Bulwark of Good 1
    Paladin Resistance of Good 1
    Human Improved Recovery 2
    Paladin Devotion 2


    Stunning Blow DC
    10 Base
    22 Strength
    03 Fighter Past Lives
    01 Fighter Stunning Blow Enhancement
    10 Item
    06 Exceptional Item
    06 LD: Legendary Tactics
    = 58DC, rising to 61DC with Level 28 and new Kensai Enhancements

    Core Skills
    Spot - 23
    Search - 23
    Disable Device - 23
    Heal - 21 Ranks
    Open Lock - 5 Ranks

    If your confident with where traps are in the game, you can swap the Spot ranks into Open Lock instead. Heal ranks will be necessary for new enhancements to provide Positive Spell Power.


    Epic Destiny - Fury of the Wild
    Unbridled Fury - Rank 1
    Fury Eternal - Rank 1
    Overwhelming Force - Rank 3
    Sense Weakness - Rank 3
    Tier 3 Strength - Rank 1
    Acute Instincts - Rank 3
    Tier 2 Strength - Rank 1
    Tunnel Vision - Rank 2
    Primal Scream - Rank 3
    Tier 1 Strength - Rank 1

    Twists
    1. SD: Grim Precision or LD: Haste Boost
    2. LD: LEgendary Tactics
    3. PA: Rejuvenation Cocoon

    Defenses
    HP: Circa 800HP with Self/Ship Buffs only.
    Saves: Circa 54/48/41 Saves with Self/Ship Buffs only.
    AC: Circa 80+
    Concealment: 20% Item / 50% Displacement Scroll
    Incorproeal: 10% Item
    Dodge: Circa 10% depending on items
    C/I/D = 35.2% Miss Chance, rising to 59.5% with a Displacement Scroll


    Potential Gear Setup
    Armour: Whisper Chain
    Gloves: Nether Grasps
    Bracers: Bracers of Twisting Shade
    Belt: Girdle of Giants Brawn - Con +7, Heavy Fort
    Helmet: Dragon Helm Ins Str +3 - Ins Con +2, Natural AC+7
    Necklace: Jorgundals Collar - Exc Str +1, Good Luck +2
    Boots: Halcyon Boots - Ins Wis +2, Ins Cha +2
    Goggles: Intricate Field Optics - Cha +8, Wis +7, Vitality +20HP
    Ring 1: Seal of Dun'Robar, Stunning +10
    Ring 2: Seal of Avithoul, Ins Dex +2
    Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Bear

    I went after utilising the U16 items as far as is reasonable, as it allows me to incorporate Rogue skill items into Melee centric Gear, and the EE whisperchain gives me a rare source of Superior False Life and Exceptional Sneak Attack +5.

    However, you don't need all this gear straight away. The gear setup is very flexible and can be built up over time. Don't have the raid Halcyon Boots? Go farm U16 Quests for Epic Normal Treads. Don't have the Intricate Field goggles? Buy some random loot goggles with Wisdom and colourless slot and put Charisma in the slot. The Whisperchain, Nether Grasps and Bracers of Twisiting Shade can all be U16 chain end reward pulls until your lucky enough (and brave enough) to go after the EH/EE version from chest drops.
    Last edited by Arlathen; 05-23-2013 at 05:20 AM. Reason: Current Enhancements
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    It looks like a pretty good build. I would say you're probably better off taking empower heal instead of quicken as a metamagic feat since cocoon is exceptionally good, and EH is the only feat that impacts it.

    I also wonder why you didn't take divine might? It looks like you would meet the requirements for DM2, and it is tough to beat +4 damage as far as heroic enhancements go.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    It looks like a pretty good build. I would say you're probably better off taking empower heal instead of quicken as a metamagic feat since cocoon is exceptionally good, and EH is the only feat that impacts it.

    I also wonder why you didn't take divine might? It looks like you would meet the requirements for DM2, and it is tough to beat +4 damage as far as heroic enhancements go.
    Thanks for the feedback.

    Re: Quicken/Empower Heal: Absolutely, in an ideal world (read: Level 28) I'll most likely have both, but your spot with Empower Heal since Rejuvenation Cocoon behaves like a SLA and is uninterruptible, albeit a little slow to cast.

    As for Divine Might, I can live without another slow-to-cast/short-duration buff; but the initial Enhancements Alpha lifts the CHA requirement and the third rank means it will last for 2 Minutes. Then it will be a much more useful enhancement, as +10 Damage from 30 Charisma is much more enjoyable

    Food for thought though.

    I'm looking forward though to grinding my way through some level 24 Cormyrian Weapons and seeing what I can pull out of the hat. I have a strange hope that with the right weapons, this chap will be become an absolute monster above and beyond the core build outline above.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  5. #5
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    Default Bladeforge Changes

    What would you do to adapt this to the new iconic race as at least one lvl of pally is required.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    As for Divine Might, I can live without another slow-to-cast/short-duration buff; but the initial Enhancements Alpha lifts the CHA requirement and the third rank means it will last for 2 Minutes. Then it will be a much more useful enhancement, as +10 Damage from 30 Charisma is much more enjoyable
    My understanding is that the new divine might will add your cha mod to str, not damage. 30 cha = 10 mod = str +10 = +5 damage. Still solid.

    Any way to squeeze in 2 more pally levels to get "permanent" +10% doublestrike?

    In fury of the wild, exalted smite II gives no meaningful benefit over exalted smite I.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Appollyon View Post
    What would you do to adapt this to the new iconic race as at least one lvl of pally is required.
    Hmm, difficult...

    Thanks to the Dex penalty, I'd be inclinded to stay with THF and Greatswords, but that immediately reduces the value of TWF Paladin Smites, lowers the recharge rate of Adrenaline strikes through Fury Eternal and halves the benefit of any Sneak Attack damage you can get.

    Your also going to be missing the Fighter Past Lives for the increased Stunning Blow DC, with no current way of obtaining them. The only upshot here is your access to racial Tactics instead. However, your also losing a feat going Bladeforged instead of Human, with the missing racial skill point a serious detriment to your Skill progressions.

    In short - there's two many trade-offs for me just to make a Bladeforged fit. If you want to roll a Bladeforged with Stunning Blow, do so with a decent amount of Fighter Levels (6 should do the trick) so you can score extra Damage bonuses through Kensai 1 and the associated Weapon Specialisation feats and also get a decent amount of bonus Stunning Blow through Fighter/Kensai/Warforged Tactics.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My understanding is that the new divine might will add your cha mod to str, not damage. 30 cha = 10 mod = str +10 = +5 damage. Still solid.
    Oooh, good find. I could of sworn it was straight bonus to damage on Lamma-land, but the Wiki is contradicting me. Still, its essentially free Power Attack at 30 Charisma so still worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Any way to squeeze in 2 more pally levels to get "permanent" +10% doublestrike?
    I wish there was. Human was already a requirement due to the tight amount of feats I wanted, 2 Fighter was needed for Feats and potential access to Fighter tactics under the new enhancements, and dropping from 6 Rogue to 4 Rogue is a big drop in skill points, sneak attack damage damage, and loses me access to Tier 5 Assassin tree under the new enhancements.

    So unfortunately, not in this build.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In fury of the wild, exalted smite II gives no meaningful benefit over exalted smite I.
    True. In Turbine's SoonTM period of waiting for the new enhancements, it's 2AP that could be freed up. Or the ability can still be taken and enjoyed mostly for the heroic level-ling, especially if you choose to use some low crit-range weaponry.

    But looking forward, I'm hoping to get the full Exalted Smite 4 from the new enhancements.

    Thanks for the feedback, though
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  9. #9
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Hey and thanks for another interesting theory build.

    I rolled up one of these yesterday for a first lifer (can't be bothered for crazy TRing for 3 DC of stunning blow) 32-point build by dropping strength to 16 and raising charisma to 14. Sure my Stunning Blow will be 4 behind yours but I still think the build will do fine. But if the new DV adds charisma to strength then that's a nice boost to the DC and should work fine.

    First I thought of a pure pally, but after looking at the alpha KOTC enhancements, I came to the conclusion that there's no point in that because the core abilities are just horrible (not many undead or outsiders in the end game so far at least) and the capstone isn't really worth it since you get 1d6 vs all evil from just pally 3. All you lose is 1d6 holy vs all evil with the capstone and 2d6 vs undead and outsiders + charisma. They might of course beef up the capstone later, but right not it seems that pally is a splash class since the spells are not very good except zeal. You practically gain very little for going past 14. This made me a bit sad because I would've liked a pure pally, but splashing just brings so much more to the table.

    Going 14 pally for zeal could be worth it in my opinion. 6 rogue gives nothing (except trap sense +2) after the pass since you get all the goodies with 5 levels of rogue. You will also get more sneak attack with the new enhancements (depending on how much you want to spend AP) which in turn means you could drop to rogue 4 and lose 1d6 class SA. I for one don't see the need to go 6 rogue right now to get just 1d6 SA from assassin 1. Dropping 1 fighter (drop toughness and choose between imp sunder and emp heal, in any case I would drop toughness for sure after the pass) and 1 rogue is possible as well to get zeal and keep 3d6 SA.

    It all depends a bit which the main tree is where most points will go. But you don't need t5 for assassin since it gives nothing to this build so no need for rogue 5 enhancement wise.

    I have to say I haven't calculated the skill points for this at all and if it's even possible with just 4 rogue levels. Right now I started rogue, pally, fighter, pally and plan to take the rogue levels last to just pump up umd to max. Right now I'm just raising search and disable device. We probably get a free LR after the pass so can see if it's possible to get the skills maxed by careful planning.

  10. #10
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Oh just noticed you need 2 fighter for the tactics so the only way to get zeal is by dropping rogue levels.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Hey and thanks for another interesting theory build.
    Your most welcome I love to share my ideas to get constructive feedback, even if I get told "It's total gimp".

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    I rolled up one of these yesterday for a first lifer (can't be bothered for crazy TRing for 3 DC of stunning blow) 32-point build by dropping strength to 16 and raising charisma to 14. Sure my Stunning Blow will be 4 behind yours but I still think the build will do fine. But if the new DM adds charisma to strength then that's a nice boost to the DC and should work fine.
    *Shock* Of course! Well, that does play right into my hands - Ellis spotted the sacred bonus to Strength, which of course means bonus Stunning Blow DC. Another +5DC to Strength would lift that ability right up to the mid 60's for me.

    In terms of your own build, absolutely, I think that will work out fine. Especially if your not aiming for Epic Elites.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    First I thought of a pure pally, but after looking at the alpha KOTC enhancements, I came to the conclusion that there's no point in that because the core abilities are just horrible (not many undead or outsiders in the end game so far at least) and the capstone isn't really worth it since you get 1d6 vs all evil from just pally 3. All you lose is 1d6 holy vs all evil with the capstone and 2d6 vs undead and outsiders + charisma. They might of course beef up the capstone later, but right not it seems that pally is a splash class since the spells are not very good except zeal. You practically gain very little for going past 14. This made me a bit sad because I would've liked a pure pally, but splashing just brings so much more to the table.
    Hmm, Outsiders shave some play if you like the CitW Raid, and of course the Truthful One is undead for Epic Gianthold. And unless your doing something like my Angel of Death build, I agree that Pure Pally is not the way to go. Paladin 12 gives you the 2D6 vs. Evil in the new enhancements, however, and I think that's worth having.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Going 14 pally for zeal could be worth it in my opinion. 6 rogue gives nothing (except trap sense +2) after the pass since you get all the goodies with 5 levels of rogue. You will also get more sneak attack with the new enhancements (depending on how much you want to spend AP) which in turn means you could drop to rogue 4 and lose 1d6 class SA. I for one don't see the need to go 6 rogue right now to get just 1d6 SA from assassin 1. Dropping 1 fighter (drop toughness and choose between imp sunder and emp heal, in any case I would drop toughness for sure after the pass) and 1 rogue is possible as well to get zeal and keep 3d6 SA.
    The main consideration with 6 Rogue is the additional skill points to make the skills wanted viable. the Assassin PrE is just to add a little extra Sneak DPS now, as I would be taking most of the Pre-Req enhancements anyway. Rogue 6 also scores another 1% Dodge for Uncanny Dodge.

    As you've rightly pointed out below, dropping a level of Fighter isn't viable either as it will be needed under the new enhancements. It would also mean losing out on the +1 Str Class enhancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    It all depends a bit which the main tree is where most points will go. But you don't need t5 for assassin since it gives nothing to this build so no need for rogue 5 enhancement wise.
    Ahh. T5 Assassin means +1 Crit Range on Daggers under the new enhancements. Yes, Daggers. Think carefully about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    I have to say I haven't calculated the skill points for this at all and if it's even possible with just 4 rogue levels. Right now I started rogue, pally, fighter, pally and plan to take the rogue levels last to just pump up umd to max. Right now I'm just raising search and disable device. We probably get a free LR after the pass so can see if it's possible to get the skills maxed by careful planning.
    I don't think you'll get close to the Skill Points really wanted if you go less than 6 Rogue & Human. Stats, even at 36pt, are stretched across Str, Dex, Con, Int, Cha at build and losing rogue levels means neededing more base Int. Have a play with the skills and see what works for you.

    In terms of level/feat progression for me:

    1. Rogue - Power Attack, Stunning Blow
    2. Paladin
    3. Fighter - Cleave, TWF
    4. Paladin
    5. Rogue
    6. Paladin - Great Cleave
    7. Fighter - ITWF
    8. Paladin
    9. Paladin - IC: Pierce
    10. Rogue
    11. Paladin
    12. Paladin - GTWF
    13. Paladin
    14. Rogue
    15. Paladin - Precision
    16. Paladin
    17. Rogue
    18. Paladin - Toughness/Improved Sunder
    19. Paladin
    20. Rogue
    E21. Overwhelming Critical
    E24. Quicken
    E27. Empower Heal/Improved Sunder

    I've not made my mind up about Improved Sunder yet, it depends on how much HP gets affected by the nerfs in the New Enhancements in terms of Class/Racial Toughness.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  12. #12
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Your most welcome I love to share my ideas to get constructive feedback, even if I get told "It's total gimp".



    *Shock* Of course! Well, that does play right into my hands - Ellis spotted the sacred bonus to Strength, which of course means bonus Stunning Blow DC. Another +5DC to Strength would lift that ability right up to the mid 60's for me.

    In terms of your own build, absolutely, I think that will work out fine. Especially if your not aiming for Epic Elites.
    Yes I mainly play EH and not so fussed with optimizing that much. I just really liked your idea and premise for the build and that's always the most important for me. Just seems like a ton of fun (especially after the pass). I think I have to try your Stormbringer build after the enhancement pass.

    I have to say your heavily themed builds and mad synergy has made you my favourite builder so thanks and keep it up.

    Anyways the charisma to strength should help us nicely for this build. Hope it stays like it is!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post

    Hmm, Outsiders shave some play if you like the CitW Raid, and of course the Truthful One is undead for Epic Gianthold. And unless your doing something like my Angel of Death build, I agree that Pure Pally is not the way to go. Paladin 12 gives you the 2D6 vs. Evil in the new enhancements, however, and I think that's worth having.
    12 paladin is definitely worth it because of this and what you lose with the minor capstone additional light damage you gain with a bunch of SA. (precision helps too)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    The main consideration with 6 Rogue is the additional skill points to make the skills wanted viable. the Assassin PrE is just to add a little extra Sneak DPS now, as I would be taking most of the Pre-Req enhancements anyway. Rogue 6 also scores another 1% Dodge for Uncanny Dodge.

    As you've rightly pointed out below, dropping a level of Fighter isn't viable either as it will be needed under the new enhancements. It would also mean losing out on the +1 Str Class enhancement.
    I have to see how skills can be done with the char planner. Spot or more than half ranks of Open Lock isn't critical since eventually you remember where the traps are and only a handful of things can't be opened with a high OL (My wiz/rog has half ranks and does fine). Seeing stealthed creatures is convenient however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Ahh. T5 Assassin means +1 Crit Range on Daggers under the new enhancements. Yes, Daggers. Think carefully about that.
    Ahh so you're going for daggers then and t5 in assassin. Well I guess t5 Kotc doesn't offer that much. I thought rapiers based on the OP. Was thinking some pallyish weapons like Balizarde and Celestia myself. What exactly have you got in mind with the daggers? And what are you hoping for from the challenges?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    I don't think you'll get close to the Skill Points really wanted if you go less than 6 Rogue & Human. Stats, even at 36pt, are stretched across Str, Dex, Con, Int, Cha at build and losing rogue levels means neededing more base Int. Have a play with the skills and see what works for you.

    In terms of level/feat progression for me:

    1. Rogue - Power Attack, Stunning Blow
    2. Paladin
    3. Fighter - Cleave, TWF
    4. Paladin
    5. Rogue
    6. Paladin - Great Cleave
    7. Fighter - ITWF
    8. Paladin
    9. Paladin - IC: Pierce
    10. Rogue
    11. Paladin
    12. Paladin - GTWF
    13. Paladin
    14. Rogue
    15. Paladin - Precision
    16. Paladin
    17. Rogue
    18. Paladin - Toughness/Improved Sunder
    19. Paladin
    20. Rogue
    E21. Overwhelming Critical
    E24. Quicken
    E27. Empower Heal/Improved Sunder

    I've not made my mind up about Improved Sunder yet, it depends on how much HP gets affected by the nerfs in the New Enhancements in terms of Class/Racial Toughness.
    This looks ok and I have to check it out in the planner. With an LR at 20 (+tomes) you can of course optimize taking heal only with pally levels etc.

    Improved sunder is nice and even nicer if they fixed the bugged sundering swings from LD. That could be a nice situational twist as well with double cleaving. Probably best to wait and see how the HP is affected in the end.

    One question though regarding gear. Do you think you have enough healing amp to skip for example 30% from PDK gloves and 20% from convalescent bracers? Or is that overkill healing amp compared to the rogue synergy and skipping item swaps?
    Last edited by InfraRiot; 05-27-2013 at 10:08 AM.

  13. #13
    Hero InfraRiot's Avatar
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    Just realized that if DM goes through as planned and adds to strength you should consider dropping strength to 16 and raising charisma to 16 (+2 modifier up from 12). This will give you +1 damage and +1 DC for tactical feats.

    If charisma and strength are both 16 and if DM can be kept up all the time, it might be better to put all ability raises in charisma too instead of strength to get a higher UMD in the process.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post

    1. Ahh so you're going for daggers then and t5 in assassin. Well I guess t5 Kotc doesn't offer that much. I thought rapiers based on the OP. Was thinking some pallyish weapons like Balizarde and Celestia myself. What exactly have you got in mind with the daggers? And what are you hoping for from the challenges?

    2. One question though regarding gear. Do you think you have enough healing amp to skip for example 30% from PDK gloves and 20% from convalescent bracers? Or is that overkill healing amp compared to the rogue synergy and skipping item swaps?
    To respond to these points directly:

    1. Possibly I know I'm only darkening the waters with my comments but it depends on what happens with my Challenge grinding and what happens with the enhancement pass. For now, yes, I'm going with Rapiers. I want the crit range for Smites. But if you think outside the box a little, you'll figure out what would make this build so damn superior in terms of trash DPS for Epic Elites.

    Fight Club and an all that

    2. I don't see Item Heal Amp as necessary here - there's going to be a lot of heal amp available from Paladin Enhancements and Human Enhancements, and any more is overkill. Even just 20% Paladin + 10% Human + 10% Ship is more than enough with Empowered Heal meta'd Rejuv Cocoons healing you, I would think. Particularly with the Devotion/Potency gear and other spellpower extras. And because of all that, I prefer the thematic U16 item choices with the strong Rogue DPS & Skill synergies.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Just realized that if DM goes through as planned and adds to strength you should consider dropping strength to 16 and raising charisma to 16 (+2 modifier up from 12). This will give you +1 damage and +1 DC for tactical feats.

    If charisma and strength are both 16 and if DM can be kept up all the time, it might be better to put all ability raises in charisma too instead of strength to get a higher UMD in the process.
    Yes, that's definitely another idea to explore!
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    1. Rogue - Power Attack, Stunning Blow
    2. Paladin
    3. Fighter - Cleave, TWF
    4. Paladin
    5. Rogue
    6. Paladin - Great Cleave
    7. Fighter - ITWF
    8. Paladin
    9. Paladin - IC: Pierce
    10. Rogue
    11. Paladin
    12. Paladin - GTWF
    13. Paladin
    14. Rogue
    15. Paladin - Precision
    16. Paladin
    17. Rogue
    18. Paladin - Toughness/Improved Sunder
    19. Paladin
    20. Rogue
    E21. Overwhelming Critical
    E24. Quicken
    E27. Empower Heal/Improved Sunder
    I would swap levels 2 & 3 for the shallowest of all possible reasons: So that from level 2 on, your character's icon in parties will always be paladin. heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    2. I don't see Item Heal Amp as necessary here - there's going to be a lot of heal amp available from Paladin Enhancements and Human Enhancements, and any more is overkill. Even just 20% Paladin + 10% Human + 10% Ship is more than enough with Empowered Heal meta'd Rejuv Cocoons healing you, I would think. Particularly with the Devotion/Potency gear and other spellpower extras. And because of all that, I prefer the thematic U16 item choices with the strong Rogue DPS & Skill synergies.
    For between fights, sure, but during combat rejuvenation cocoon needs a lot of amp to keep up in big fights. Once the 120 or so temporary hit points go away it stops healing. My ranger has improved recovery 3, PDK gloves and the tod tempest ring with 20% amp, ranger devotion IV, a 108 devotion hat and empower healing spell and IIRC cocoon gives him back low-100s per tick. With only low-100s temp hp you'll only get 1 or 2 ticks per cast during big fights.

    Between combat it's great, of course. During combat I sometimes have to go to his high-200s cure serious.

  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    The Dark Inquisitor
    Sorry I had to quote but the forums keep crashing when using reply to thread. I've only been playing DDO a little while (D&D and CRPG's for a good 30 years though) so please be understanding if I'm missing anything vital through lack of game experience.

    You have some options. Like Improved Feint instead of Stunning Blow and dropping Improved Sunder for the Combat Expertise prereq. Or you could trade two of Paladin/Rogue levels for fighter levels to work Feint in alongside Stunning Blow. Focus on more Charisma to beef up your Bluff and get some higher saves (more reflex always welcome). To get Combat Expertise you would need 13 Intelligence but this would help you out a bit on the skills side. Should you decide to splash Fighter 4 it would would unlock Fighter Strategy II for an extra +1 Trip DC. Combat Expertise would allow you to purchase the Improved Trip feat for a further +4 Trip DC.

    My take on what you are after is a Paladin 10, Rogue 6, Fighter 4 something like this:

    1 Rogue *Two Weapon Fighting*
    2 Paladin
    3 Rogue [Evasion] *Power Attack*
    4 Paladin [Divine Grace]
    5 Fighter (Trip DC) *Cleave*
    6 Fighter *Stunning Blow* *Great Cleave*
    7 Fighter
    8 Fighter (Trip DC) *Improved TWF*
    9 Rogue (update skills, extra 1d6 sneak attack) *Combat Expertise*
    10 Paladin
    11 Paladin
    12 Paladin (Divine Sacrifice) *Greater TWF*
    13
    14
    15 *Improved Feint*
    16
    17
    18 *Improved Trip*
    19
    20

    Organize the last 3 feats to taste, you might take Greater TWF at level 18 for instance. No toughness so you would have to pay attention to Con. How you level 13 to 20 is based on your priorities (Paladin 10 or Rogue 6 essentially). At least to make it fun to play you don't want to carry all your AP's until level 20 before you can spend the darned things, better to finish off one class first. Drow is the obvious race of choice for what you want, very stat friendly, Spell Resistance and can get +2 to hit & damage with rapiers though enhancements.

    Losing HotD II isn't a big deal (drow SR) and Paladin 10 is the minimum requirement for all the other enhancements you wanted. To go to the next enhancement level up is Paladin 13 & 14 which you wouldn't have been able to unlock with a 12th Paladin anyway.

    Lastly, unaware that Smite Evil and Sneak Attack would proc on the offhand so the thread has been very helpful. The Valenar build I've designed is weapon/shield with the Shield Mastery feats but since the rest of it is full DPS (Divine Might IV, Divine Sacrifice III & Exalted Smite IV) I might rework it for TWF.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aolas View Post
    I've only been playing DDO a little while (D&D and CRPG's for a good 30 years though) so please be understanding if I'm missing anything vital through lack of game experience.

    You have some options...
    Interesting, but allow me to shed some light.

    First of the all race choice of Human vs. Drow. This is no contest for me, the additional Feat and Skill Point per level out weighs any potential Drow Rapier advantage. Paladin & Rogue are Feat starved classes in the main, and I need feats for melee offense, and self-healing. Taking Drow race for Drow SR is a poor idea as frankly Drow SR is useless after maybe Vale, and won't offer the Immunity to Energy Drain that I can get with HotD2.

    Paladin12 vs. Paladin 10: While your initially right in that there's precious little in enhancements taken from 10-12, you do miss out on HotD 2 and its massive bonuses of Immunity to Energy Drain and an additional Multiplicative 10% Heal Amp. Also, you miss out on level 3 spells, so I lose access to Cure Moderate Wounds. I don't like not having CSW to be honest, but losing access to CMW and thus another Quickened, Empowered-Heal meta'd spell when fighting in melee. 12 Paladin is also significant in thenew enhancements, allowing me to get access to the 2D6 Damage vs. Evil creatures on every attack aura enhancement.

    Losing Rogue levels: It's not an option for me realistically. It will mean losing precious skill points and sneak attack damage, both major factors of the build. If anything, i woudl want more skills points for other skills (Move Silently) and as much sneak attack as I can muster.

    Bluff: Taking Bluff as a primary skill choice is unnecessary in the long term. Improved Deception is more than enough to enable regular sneak attacks, especially when fighting raid bosses or higher difficulty enemies where there's more time spent beating on trash to kill. The Proc rate is very high when TWF and hasted.

    Also, lets talk about feats.

    1. Improved Feint is broken beyond belief. It has poor timing, poor cooldown and can be interrupted too easily to prevent the bluff check from happening. I wouldn't take this feat on my build. I also believe it relies on your Bluff skill and thus this would drain already tight skill points.

    2. Combat Expertise. This is a waste on a build not built for high Armour Class, or High PRR, or even a character that just wants to maximise available defenses. If I wanted to max out potential defenses then it would be a viable option, but for this build its a poor choice against Power Attack or Precision. Speaking of which...

    3. Precision: You've missed this in your feat list, and I highly value this feat on any build that has a significant amount of Sneak Attack damage. Combined with the earlier mentioned Improved deception, 4D6+22 Sneak Damage will grant me an Avg +36 Damage per swing, per main and offhand attack. If I combine Precision, Improved Sunder and Grim Precision I can achieve a 50% Fortification Bypass, and thus my Sneak Damage is hugely more useful against High Fort enemies over leaving Power Attack Enabled.

    4. Losing Improved Sunder: I already have a difficult choice in where to fit this, but am seriously wanting to fit this feat in to provide the aforementioned 10% Fort Bypass and also for the Fort save reduction. I can use this to effectively gain +3 Stunning Blow DC on each attempt, regardless of my Improved sunder DC.

    5. Improved Trip: While not a bad idea, this is more damage mitigation than a melee DPS increasing tactic, but has the poor pre-requisite of Combat Expertise. Also, I can't afford the gear slot to get Vertigo+10 in alongside Stunning+10 for my Stunning Blow. I'd potentially have to drop the Seal of Avithoul for another Seal of Dun'Robar (which would mean changing out the Nether Grasps for Backstabber Gloves), or restrict myself to a Drow Weapon with Vertigo +10. Unfortunately, this is to much like trying to crowbar in yet another ability on an already 'crowded' build that could end taking away from the primary build goals.

    I think there the main counter points, but don't take this as criticism of your idea's, its more along the lines of "I've already thought of this idea, or tried that idea out in other builds". For every Theorybuild I post, there 3 or 4 other variations that never get off the spreadsheet or out of theorycrafting even
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  19. #19

    Default Level 1.....to Level 3.

    Level 1 - Level 3

    Sign, Yes, the Tr is done and am back at level 1 and in Korthos. I haven't TR a character in quite some time so its quite refreshing to venture back through some of the older content.

    I've quickly progressed last night through level 1 and level 2 and eventually finished up at level and thus Paladin 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 1.

    There's nothing significant to report at such an early stage of development, other than to say that I'd be sorely tempted to take a Martial Weapon Proficiency just for use at level before swapping it out to Power Attack as you level up to 2, next time. Swinging that Flame Touch Heavy Mace in Korthos Elite quests had some dicey moment.

    As soon as I took the Paladin level though and got my lowbie Greatswords/Maul (Flaming of Bleed, Acid of Lesser Construct Bane, Flaming Maul of Flametouched Iron & Lesser Undead Bane) out to play with, it was back to the good ol 'Rarrrrr SMASH' attitude to Kobolds in the harbour..

    One Final note: Turbine's recent free 50% XP Pot was enjoyable - sneaking out 5K XP Per First time Elite run on some Harbour quests certainly made my levelling time quick!
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InfraRiot View Post
    Just realized that if DM goes through as planned and adds to strength you should consider dropping strength to 16 and raising charisma to 16 (+2 modifier up from 12). This will give you +1 damage and +1 DC for tactical feats.

    If charisma and strength are both 16 and if DM can be kept up all the time, it might be better to put all ability raises in charisma too instead of strength to get a higher UMD in the process.
    It's a tie, actually, with the advantage going to strength by virtue of it being permanent, whereas the cha method is a temporary buff you have to keep re-applying and could eventually run out of.

    18 str = +4 damage & +4 tactical dc
    12 cha = +1 str (no effect, unless maybe you go for the full +5 primal scream?)

    16 str = +3 damage & +3 tactical dc
    16 cha = +3 str = +1 mod

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