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  1. #21
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    I understand, except the problem is that a DPS Sorc is truly a one trick pony with limited endurance. If you nerf the damage without increasing the endurance, i.e. spellpoints, it just means you can do less before you're essentially worthless. At it's worst a druid can shift form and put out at least vaguely relevant DPS. Sorcs swinging caster sticks, or even Epic Sword of Shadows, not so much. In my experience at least.
    In theory, yes. In reality, it's not that hard to gear up a sorc with essentially never ending sp. And even that's rarely needed as there are shrines about every 50ft in most places. Shrining is, at most, an inconvenience slowing down the footrace for most.

    If you look at the class choices for DnD, you can clearly see that every class has at least one noticeable strength, and at least one noticeable weakness. This is to encourage teamwork and learning to use the strengths and weaknesses of a party. In DDO, really only raw DPS matters.

    And yes, the druid is capable of reasonable amounts of dps from both casting and melee, and while not perfect, can even do them at the same time. But the sp pool is also half what the sorc gets, and the spell power is reduced or non existent as well. So if you were to run through all the sp from both and add up the total dps, the druid would have about 1/4 of the total dps of a sorc. Increasing the melee ability to anything decent requires cutting back on spell power and points even further. While a druid is flexible, it is clearly not as powerful as a sorc for raw dps.

    All I'm saying is that wizards and sorcs can easily be built to have absolutely no weaknesses. At that point, they are significantly more powerful than any other class in DDO (other than monk) who all have definite weaknesses.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    All I'm saying is that wizards and sorcs can easily be built to have absolutely no weaknesses. At that point, they are significantly more powerful than any other class in DDO (other than monk) who all have definite weaknesses.
    I don't agree with this statement. But just to be clear, are you proposing that weakness (for sorcerers and wizards) should be dps?

  3. #23
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    In theory, yes. In reality, it's not that hard to gear up a sorc with essentially never ending sp. And even that's rarely needed as there are shrines about every 50ft in most places. Shrining is, at most, an inconvenience slowing down the footrace for most.

    If you look at the class choices for DnD, you can clearly see that every class has at least one noticeable strength, and at least one noticeable weakness. This is to encourage teamwork and learning to use the strengths and weaknesses of a party. In DDO, really only raw DPS matters.

    And yes, the druid is capable of reasonable amounts of dps from both casting and melee, and while not perfect, can even do them at the same time. But the sp pool is also half what the sorc gets, and the spell power is reduced or non existent as well. So if you were to run through all the sp from both and add up the total dps, the druid would have about 1/4 of the total dps of a sorc. Increasing the melee ability to anything decent requires cutting back on spell power and points even further. While a druid is flexible, it is clearly not as powerful as a sorc for raw dps.

    All I'm saying is that wizards and sorcs can easily be built to have absolutely no weaknesses. At that point, they are significantly more powerful than any other class in DDO (other than monk) who all have definite weaknesses.
    Funny enough, the sorcs with near-never-ending SP (mainly shiradi sorcs, as you can technically cast offensively forever with just Endless Faith twisted - 30 SP Echoes is plenty) are the ones relatively unaffected by changes like this, though people are so happy to say "YAY, THEY'RE NERFED!" any time people say their sorcs have been nerfed (not realizing that we're referring to non-shiradi-based casters). Shiradi makes casters much more powerful because it bypasses their one major restriction: limited SP. Funny enough, when this restriction is available in sufficiently difficult content for class balance to matter (for example, a DI sorc in EE content)...it's the "weaker" classes you talk about that are actually doing better. Take a good melee (preferably, but not necessarily, with blitz) or good AA (likewise, preferably, but not necessarily, with FotW) through EE GH, and you can do it with less resource expenditure than you can generally do with any but the best-geared, best-played DI sorc (this even goes back to EE MotU content - it was easier to solo many things as a melee FvS or shiradi monkcher (way before I'd tried FotW on my monkcher or TRed my melee out of FvS) than a warforged DI ice savant), unless the DI is recalling every few minutes to shrine.

    Generally, what I'm saying is I find the "no weakness" argument hilarious - the "no weakness" builds people claim (which definitely do have weakness, and even if they can often more efficiently solo...it's usually slower) are not the ones that are heavily affected by such bugs. It's the builds that DON'T have these strengths (such as my current human DI sorc into which I TRed my shiradi, which I won't even bother leveling until I hear confirmation on such bugs being fixed as the MCL issue) that are most affected by such bugs...and basically, that's punishing to those who play non-shiradi casters, which seems to accomplish the OPPOSITE of your goal.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  4. #24
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilII View Post
    I don't agree with this statement. But just to be clear, are you proposing that weakness (for sorcerers and wizards) should be dps?
    I'm not proposing anything, just expressing my opinion on the subject of whether or not casters are too powerful.

    If I proposed anything, it would be to eliminate epic destinies and provide proper class advancement in high levels. The epic destiny system is quite imaginative, but it's a fundamentally lazy way to try to provide balance at end game.

  5. #25
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I'm not proposing anything, just expressing my opinion on the subject of whether or not casters are too powerful.

    If I proposed anything, it would be to eliminate epic destinies and provide proper class advancement in high levels. The epic destiny system is quite imaginative, but it's a fundamentally lazy way to try to provide balance at end game.
    Oh, I'd be quite happy with that myself - epic spells (hopefully alongside giving us the powerful level 8 and 9 spells currently not available) would put an end to anyone thinking casters and non-casters should be balanced. >_>
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  6. #26
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Oh, I'd be quite happy with that myself - epic spells (hopefully alongside giving us the powerful level 8 and 9 spells currently not available) would put an end to anyone thinking casters and non-casters should be balanced. >_>
    Actually! I wouldn't have a problem with that. As long as the sp pool was not seemingly infinite, and you couldn't use the entire sp pool to spam the same two spells over and over again. You know, like in DnD.

  7. #27
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Actually! I wouldn't have a problem with that. As long as the sp pool was not seemingly infinite, and you couldn't use the entire sp pool to spam the same two spells over and over again. You know, like in DnD.
    Thing is, In DnD, I can destroy a city with a single level 5 spell (Control Winds...I'm banned from taking this spell in my PnP group for good reason).

    Things being more like PnP will completely upset the balance.

    Compare that to DDO, where the worst imbalance is casters can do a lot of damage for a short amount of time, or alternatively casters can minimize resource needs.

    Saying the game should be more like PnP in the same post where you talk about how the game should be more balanced...it has little to do with the reality of PnP vs DDO (believe you me, DDO is far more balanced between non-casters and casters than PnP could ever be for 3.X editions)...especially when, once you get to the same levels in PnP that we're at in DDO, you realize the limitations of things like spells/day are a limitation for lower levels...there's so many ways to circumvent them at higher levels.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    Funny enough, the sorcs with near-never-ending SP (mainly shiradi sorcs, as you can technically cast offensively forever with just Endless Faith twisted - 30 SP Echoes is plenty) are the ones relatively unaffected by changes like this, though people are so happy to say "YAY, THEY'RE NERFED!"
    I must say, although me and Wrunt have had some disagreements in the past, he is SPOT ON.

    My main is a multi TR sorc, currently on his 4th consecutive sorc life. 2nd consecutive shiradi.

    Wrunt is correct. These changes, with the removal of the perma dots and all, did hardly anything to my Shiradi. He still tears through content. They will need something bigger than this to bring him down. Shiradi does not rely on crit lines.

    Also, to those complaining the nerve venom does not proc as much...lay down some acid fog and ice storm on one another...locks anything down.

    So, to all the shiradi haters...hate some more, as we are still VERY viable.

    To all the DI sorcs, I feel our pain. Maybe switch to shiradi until this is changed back?

  9. #29
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    might be of interest for this thread too :
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5007608

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Our investigations turned up an issue with (maximum) caster levels and two groups of spells: Spells which use projectiles such as Lightning Bolt, and spells that deal lingering area damage such as Wall of Fire or Radiant Servant healing aura.

    We believe this caster level issue does not extend to other kinds of spells.

    We are working on a fix.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  10. #30
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    I don't know why people insist on talking about EDs like capped characters are the only ones to be concerned with. There are plenty of people who don't run through Heroic levels in a week or two. In Heroic levels if Sorcerer damage is nerfed what else do they have? That is the point of a Sorcerer.

  11. #31
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergie_2010 View Post
    To all the DI sorcs, I feel our pain. Maybe switch to shiradi until this is changed back?
    I just swapped my sorc over to DI. I feel like I'm getting nerfed just for trying something different. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I don't know why people insist on talking about EDs like capped characters are the only ones to be concerned with. There are plenty of people who don't run through Heroic levels in a week or two. In Heroic levels if Sorcerer damage is nerfed what else do they have? That is the point of a Sorcerer.
    It's because the bugs have much less impact at heroic levels: MCL is an issue only at a couple level points before epic levels, and enemies die so quick anyways...the crits hurt, but only so much. The major place you see the issues like this presenting themselves are epic levels, so epic levels are the main concern that people have.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 05-24-2013 at 10:04 AM.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  12. #32
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I don't know why people insist on talking about EDs like capped characters are the only ones to be concerned with. There are plenty of people who don't run through Heroic levels in a week or two. In Heroic levels if Sorcerer damage is nerfed what else do they have? That is the point of a Sorcerer.
    A properly built sorc (like the jug) with any kind of twink gear steamrolls heroic content.

    Again, I'm not proposing nerfing sorcs (or wizzes) I'm just stating my opinion. I played a jug 1st life with sorta kinda twink gear (I'm not a big fan of grinding for gear, so if it doesn't drop into my lap while I'm playing I don't have it) and he very rarely had any problems soloing anything. Yes, without a torc and/or a few pots some careful management of sp and shrines is necessary, but I'd hardly call it a weakness.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    A properly built sorc (like the jug) with any kind of twink gear steamrolls heroic content.

    Again, I'm not proposing nerfing sorcs (or wizzes) I'm just stating my opinion. I played a jug 1st life with sorta kinda twink gear (I'm not a big fan of grinding for gear, so if it doesn't drop into my lap while I'm playing I don't have it) and he very rarely had any problems soloing anything. Yes, without a torc and/or a few pots some careful management of sp and shrines is necessary, but I'd hardly call it a weakness.
    This answer is also to Wrunt: New players aren't necessarily going to know which sorc build from the forums (assuming they go to the forums) is a good build. And they aren't going to have twink gear. Why is no one concerned with the new player experience? DDO needs a good retention rate.

  14. #34
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    In theory, yes. In reality, it's not that hard to gear up a sorc with essentially never ending sp. And even that's rarely needed as there are shrines about every 50ft in most places. Shrining is, at most, an inconvenience slowing down the footrace for most.

    If you look at the class choices for DnD, you can clearly see that every class has at least one noticeable strength, and at least one noticeable weakness. This is to encourage teamwork and learning to use the strengths and weaknesses of a party. In DDO, really only raw DPS matters.

    And yes, the druid is capable of reasonable amounts of dps from both casting and melee, and while not perfect, can even do them at the same time. But the sp pool is also half what the sorc gets, and the spell power is reduced or non existent as well. So if you were to run through all the sp from both and add up the total dps, the druid would have about 1/4 of the total dps of a sorc. Increasing the melee ability to anything decent requires cutting back on spell power and points even further. While a druid is flexible, it is clearly not as powerful as a sorc for raw dps.

    All I'm saying is that wizards and sorcs can easily be built to have absolutely no weaknesses. At that point, they are significantly more powerful than any other class in DDO (other than monk) who all have definite weaknesses.
    1. Please provide this "easy to gear" infinite SP sorcerer. I don't think it exists. I've run with a Torc of Rayium, spell storing ring, mysterious bauble, greensteel Con OP, and still haven't come close to "infinite Sp" in quests like Cabal in GH. Given that it took nearly 100 ADQ's to get the Torc, and 5 lives of farming the desert to finally get the spell storing ring; I don't think "easy" is appropriate. The only alternative I can think of is a Shiradi Sorceror with one of those increase Echoes of power twists, but that's

    a. Only for Shiradi who were least impacted by the nerf and
    b. Only relevant for post heroic play.

    2. Your comparison between Druids and Sorcs is odd. Druids are designed generalists having access to some of the more important buffs deathward, freedom of movement for example, the ability to deal with debilitating effects through Restoration, Heal etc. I am not arguing that a designed glass canon class such as the Sorceror should hold a candle to the melee capability of a designed generalist "gish" character like the druid clearly is. A druid without spell points is still a viable contributor (and given certain common enhancements can actually gain SP); a Heroic (i.e. Non-20+) or an Epic Non Shiradi Sorceror without spell points is basically relegated to opening doors and spotting.

    3. Not all classes have a weakness. Most of the gish characters do not. Rangers have evasion, self healing, adequate but inexhaustible ranged and melee dps, and bundles of skill points. Druids have self healing, limited but rather powerful spell based dps and crowd control (earthquake, snowslide, freedom+snow storm etc.) and adequate dps. Artificiers have good to excellent ranged dps which is essentially inexhaustible, good to excellent group and self buffs (weapon buffs, Tenser's etc.) access to self healing (reconstruct) piles of skill points. Are any of these characters as good in the one trick of specialists like Barbarians in DPS? Generally not, but does that make them "weak."

    4. If it is so easy to create a wizard or sorcerer with essentially no weakness please share the benefit of your wisdom and provide the build and gear set.

    I recognize that my build skills are puny, so I am serious, if you can point the way to one of these builds without weaknesses I'd appreciate it.

  15. #35
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    This answer is also to Wrunt: New players aren't necessarily going to know which sorc build from the forums (assuming they go to the forums) is a good build. And they aren't going to have twink gear. Why is no one concerned with the new player experience? DDO needs a good retention rate.
    The MCL issue comes as a direct result of gear and levels. It's not going to really be relevant to someone leveling. It matters when you get to the MCL a spell will normally have (for example, 10 for fireball), and then try to go beyond that (a fire savant could do this at level 9, or gear could cause it to happen at level 8 alongside fire savant)...but the difference will be minor, and a better spell is only a few levels away. At cap, however, there is a significant difference between a level 20 Delayed Blast Fireball (which is what the MCL would have it be stuck at) versus a level 28 Delayed Blast Fireball (to my knowledge, the highest you can raise the MCL). It gets even more severe when people such as air savants are using a spell like Lightning Bolt, which is MCL 10...when it should be raised to MCL 18, being forced to cast it at CL 10 means you do nearly half the damage.

    The crit may or may not be significant for leveling, but often it'll only mean one more cast. The gear and abilities that make crits really powerful are closer to epic levels.

    That's what I mean when I say it's not relevant for levleing.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    The MCL issue comes as a direct result of gear and levels. It's not going to really be relevant to someone leveling. It matters when you get to the MCL a spell will normally have (for example, 10 for fireball), and then try to go beyond that (a fire savant could do this at level 9, or gear could cause it to happen at level 8 alongside fire savant)...but the difference will be minor, and a better spell is only a few levels away. At cap, however, there is a significant difference between a level 20 Delayed Blast Fireball (which is what the MCL would have it be stuck at) versus a level 28 Delayed Blast Fireball (to my knowledge, the highest you can raise the MCL). It gets even more severe when people such as air savants are using a spell like Lightning Bolt, which is MCL 10...when it should be raised to MCL 18, being forced to cast it at CL 10 means you do nearly half the damage.

    The crit may or may not be significant for leveling, but often it'll only mean one more cast. The gear and abilities that make crits really powerful are closer to epic levels.

    That's what I mean when I say it's not relevant for levleing.
    The game used to only have 20 levels and we still had MCL. Yes it is relevant for Heroic.

  17. #37
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Thought this thread was about ninja nerfing.

    Shiradi needs a nerf.
    I kinda feel bad when I play shiradi cuz it's so cheap.
    Albeit, I love being able to solo farm EE stuff with Shiradi.

    So, I understand it needs a nerf but I hope it is never nerfed.

    Weird? Meh.

    The main problem with ninja nerfing is the obscurity of what's nerfed.

    I can't plan or adjust my character in accordance to what's nerfed.




    The non-disclosure of the nerfing is what ticks me off.

    I get that Turbine wants to lessen the nasty rhetoric and discussion of the ninja nerfs they plan, but.... it's just damn annoying not knowing your character's new weakness till you figure it out yourself.

    Some people will always bash the balancing Turbine does to ddo, so; really no point in hiding the changes.

    Maybe have a secret turbine club to only let the ddo vets know about the nerf's specifics?


    Or.... I guess maybe it's just too much of a hassle writing the nerfing changes down.

    Albeit, not really complaining atm. TR'ed and just popped an xp stone. 4 more stones to go. WOOt.
    Last edited by DynaTheCat; 05-24-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  18. #38
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Spell critical chance and spell critical damage changes to text and functionality (which are not the same) are not intended and we are working on fixing them.

  19. #39
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The game used to only have 20 levels and we still had MCL. Yes it is relevant for Heroic.
    It's not really relevant for leveling is what I'm saying, as the affect isn't properly seen for most spells until around level 18 when a sorc can have +3 MCL (or, with gear from a past life, +5...but that requires a ToD set). DI makes it much more visible, though, with an additional +3 MCL.

    +5 MCL requires things beyond what you'd generally accomplish at heroic levels, and +3 MCL is a small enough impact that it might not be overly obvious.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  20. #40
    Community Member HotMaarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Spell critical chance and spell critical damage changes to text and functionality (which are not the same) are not intended and we are working on fixing them.
    Thank you for your forum posts today/yesterday, addressing the bugs relevant to casters. Acknowledging them and confirming a fix is in the works means a LOT. I was super depressed yesterday, after u18 went live.

    Please hotfix us as soon as you are able and props on getting invisibility corrected btw.

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