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  1. #121
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This game's entire playerbase is too small to notice, and my bard is one of my most powerful characters. He needs nerfed, bigtime.
    Please speak only for your own bard, and if you'd like some help I can tell you that I am in no way interested in telling you how to trivialize this game to the point of complete boredom.



    My cleric is my necromancy-focused character and can drop mobs left and right in epic elite Faerun. Gianthold is full of high-fort enemies, so naturally you resort to CC as a surrogate (I use heightened cometfall on my cleric - it works fine). As for being a hagebot and cc-bot, you seem to have missed the changes put in during the MotU expansion. You can choose to be a Shiradi pew-power (currently deemed one of the BEST ways to handle EE Gianthold), or you can use the mass damage abilities of Draconic Incarnation at key intervals, or you can attempt defensive and DC measures with Magister. MotU also made it pretty feasible to just break out a good DPS weapon and contribute small amounts of damage while your CC keeps things in check.

    Don't mistake your inability to adapt to change as a failure of the game design. There's already plenty of blame there.
    Because bard is sooo hard to figure out, with all the spreadsheet gaming on these forums.

    All of this stuff has been experimented with over the last year, and most people figured it out over the first 2-3 months after MOTU dropped. Bard certainly doesnt need to be nerfed. Anything it can do as a B or C other classes can do at the level of A. It just has the ability to doo alot of things at B and C level while the specialists chose to only do one thing at A level.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #122
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Anything it can do as a B or C other classes can do at the level of A. It just has the ability to doo alot of things at B and C level while the specialists chose to only do one thing at A level.
    So how is your non-bard at fascinating? At restoring spell points? At increasing everyone's DC in the party? At increasing everyone's damage?

    The things that a bard specializes in put groups so far above bardless groups that its really hard to quantify how much power the bard alone has. Most of those things depend on other factors and other characters in the group.

    I leave bard alone when I compare the classes. It's really in its own category. That category is way overpowered for the game, though. Nothing you can say will change my mind, because if the game is trivial for MY bard... what is it for the ones with 24 past lives and every grindable bonus in the game?

    Note this is also a case where a single occurence of overpoweredness makes all your incidents of ineptness false.

  3. #123
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    It is most amusing that you claim to know so much about my work ethics. My work does seem to fascinate you for some reason. As I recall (and I do have a fairly good memory), in the past you have told me that I am not a professional software engineer after I mentioned that I am in a conversation, and you recently claimed knowledge of how successful my consulting firm is, to the point that you believed that you had a better grasp of the subject than I did.

    In general, I would have to admit that you are pretty impressive, if in fact you actually knew as much as you thought you knew. In light of how little you actually do know on the subjects that I have noted, in spite of your claims to the contrary, it does lead a reasonable person to wonder what factors are at play which would lead to such a substantial disconnect between your perception of yourself vs actual reality. That topic, however, is well outside of my professional expertise, and I will let you find someone in a suitable field to help you address that question.
    You're reading too much into it. You are not really that important to me. Mostly I was poking fun at your helpless flailing based on your helpless failing here. The bit about systematically taking notes was coming from you. You need me to refresh your memory I can dig up the quote for you again. Anyhow, even if all you said there were true, how again do you feel telling me to seek professional help constitutes a constructive contribution to the topic of Spellpower? I am asking since you seem to be overly concerned about other peoples contributions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    This is not how it used to work, so it probably still isn't how its working in update 18.

    Empower simply adds 75 spellpower. Maximize adds 150 spellpower. It doesn't show up on the character sheet, but that is how it worked before. Other sources of spellpower always just stacked additively, there were no multiplications.
    My point was that if Wizza's Sorcerer has a Spellpower of 283 and Maximize and Empower only add to it for a final Spellpower of 508, his Lightning Bolts should not be hitting with 500+ damage on a non-crit and neither should mine have. You find a flaw in my numbers, please share. Being wrong would actually put my mind at ease since I personally preferred the spell damage from before U18.

    I hypothesized that - given there are no other factors I am forgetting about - the damage a lightning bolt would be doing if cast at CL 13 (10 Cap +3 for Air Savant III) and with 508 Spellpower would be in the low 300s, which it is currently doing. What opens the possibility there may have been a bug/error in the way Spell Damage was calculated prior to U18.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

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  4. #124
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    So how is your non-bard at fascinating? At restoring spell points? At increasing everyone's DC in the party? At increasing everyone's damage?

    The things that a bard specializes in put groups so far above bardless groups that its really hard to quantify how much power the bard alone has. Most of those things depend on other factors and other characters in the group.

    I leave bard alone when I compare the classes. It's really in its own category. That category is way overpowered for the game, though. Nothing you can say will change my mind, because if the game is trivial for MY bard... what is it for the ones with 24 past lives and every grindable bonus in the game?

    Note this is also a case where a single occurence of overpoweredness makes all your incidents of ineptness false.


    Like to know how his non-bard hits 110-120 DCs for CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  5. #125
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  6. #126

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    Maybe I missed what I ask for, but Id love if someone do following test.

    max caster lvl for lightning bolt is 10
    +3 form air savant 3
    +2 from tod set
    +3 dragon spell knowledge(draconic, can twist)
    +3 master of evocation(magister)

    which sum to 21.

    So it would be nice if someone show numbers for lightning bolt with cl 10 and cl 21(the difference looks big enough to notice... For example that avg dmg looks same). Oh and be sure It is cast with same spellpower
    trixalai \o/ xirrantha \o/ trixilai //argonessen // Trolls Lair

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by KookieKobold View Post
    This particular issue is in fact just a Display issue.

    The spellpower display on the character sheet is only showing the bonuses to individual spellpower amounts (instead of all spellpower bonuses as it should be)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As far as we can tell spellpower is unaffected except for the independent display bug, where universal spellpower is not displaying properly on the character sheet, but is otherwise functioning correctly. The existing live enhancements are also properly adding to spellpower as far as we can tell.

    If you have reason to believe spellpower since U18 is incorrect, other than the noted universal spellpower display issue, please submit a bug with details.
    My cleric's aura went down from 62 to 58 on himself. This just happens to be the expected drop if he suddenly lost his implement bonus. So I don't believe you that it's a display issue.

  8. #128
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My cleric's aura went down from 62 to 58 on himself. This just happens to be the expected drop if he suddenly lost his implement bonus. So I don't believe you that it's a display issue.
    It's not... but Turbine keeps thinking they can throw sand into our eyes and that we buy every single excuse they throw out.

    Anyone that spent more than 2 minutes at the enhancement pass in Lammania and did a couple of tests on post-u18 live, knows what's going on, Turbine. You can drop the appearances now because you'll only fool the newbies and the fanboys.
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  9. #129
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    After playing this game since launch, i never thought I would take part in such a thread. This is a major fail. Epic Fail. If this was a japanese company, they would probably suicide after bringing this *update* online.

    Fix this asap, take down the servers and just do it, because if you want the money to flow, you must work, like everybody else.

    I am really really angry loging in and seeing my 279 spell power toned down to 234. Eardweler aint working, epic dragons eye, not working, then I say oh wait this might be a display bug. Then tried it in a few EE quest bosses and guess what, i am doing half the damage i was doing before, and criting once every xmas, for half damage.

    Guess, what, I have one toon. It has the best possible loot one can have, best possible build to my needs, and now I will have to quit until this is fixed because its now useless.

    great job. oh and the site, great job as well. oh and motu, great great job, so much money to get a raid 1 month later. I can keep going, what is the next expansion gonna be like? a bugged raid again? - sorry but chances say that 90% of the times, you screw up updates.

  10. #130
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My cleric's aura went down from 62 to 58 on himself. This just happens to be the expected drop if he suddenly lost his implement bonus. So I don't believe you that it's a display issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    It's not... but Turbine keeps thinking they can throw sand into our eyes and that we buy every single excuse they throw out.

    Anyone that spent more than 2 minutes at the enhancement pass in Lammania and did a couple of tests on post-u18 live, knows what's going on, Turbine. You can drop the appearances now because you'll only fool the newbies and the fanboys.
    {cough}{cough}robotoverlordsarelistening{cough}{co ugh}


    Sorry, what was that?

  11. #131
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    It's not... but Turbine keeps thinking they can throw sand into our eyes and that we buy every single excuse they throw out.

    Anyone that spent more than 2 minutes at the enhancement pass in Lammania and did a couple of tests on post-u18 live, knows what's going on, Turbine. You can drop the appearances now because you'll only fool the newbies and the fanboys.
    What's your definition of fanboi these days? Anyone who uses data based on numbers and relies on actual testing over just spewing some unfounded nonsense on the internet?

    It's ridiculous easy to test. All it takes is casting a spell once with and once without implement bonus. So, there:

    Cleric /w 219 positive Spellpower: aura ticks away on myself with 60 points.
    I equip an Ornamented Dagger with +15 implement bonus, sheet still says 219 Spellpower but the aura ticks away with 61 points.

    The same goes for the heal spell. Without implement bonus (219 Spellpower) I heal for 796 points. I equip an Ornamented Dagger (+15 implement bonus), sheet still shows 219 positive spell power but heals go up to 815 points.

    My Sorcerer /w 130 Repair Spellpower hits himself for 397 points with Reconstruct holding a throwing dagger.
    I switch to Twilight for Erudition Set bonus (+21 Implement Spellpower) my sheet still shows 130 Repair Spellpower but Reconstruct goes up to 428 points worth of repairs.

    So, please, to me how this is not a display only error on the sheet when the actual spell effect gets amplified correctly? I can screenshot that for you if that's what it takes to make you stop spread misinformation.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

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  12. #132
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    The display bug is pretty strange. Seems like a new enhancement pass thing.

  13. #133
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    What's your definition of fanboi these days? Anyone who uses data based on numbers and relies on actual testing over just spewing some unfounded nonsense on the internet?

    It's ridiculous easy to test. All it takes is casting a spell once with and once without implement bonus. So, there:

    Cleric /w 219 positive Spellpower: aura ticks away on myself with 60 points.
    I equip an Ornamented Dagger with +15 implement bonus, sheet still says 219 Spellpower but the aura ticks away with 61 points.

    The same goes for the heal spell. Without implement bonus (219 Spellpower) I heal for 796 points. I equip an Ornamented Dagger (+15 implement bonus), sheet still shows 219 positive spell power but heals go up to 815 points.

    My Sorcerer /w 130 Repair Spellpower hits himself for 397 points with Reconstruct holding a throwing dagger.
    I switch to Twilight for Erudition Set bonus (+21 Implement Spellpower) my sheet still shows 130 Repair Spellpower but Reconstruct goes up to 428 points worth of repairs.

    So, please, to me how this is not a display only error on the sheet when the actual spell effect gets amplified correctly? I can screenshot that for you if that's what it takes to make you stop spread misinformation.
    Tested lightning bolt sla on my sorc, did around 1k+ non crit before the update, now it only does around 300. Vortex tick for 1k per tick before the update, now it only does 500. Tested energy burst on sorc, before the update it deal around 6-7k non crit, now it only does around 3k. On wiz, unequip twilight deal the same damage on spell as I equip it back. Positive healing spell work fine on cleric and repair spell on arti doesn't seem to be affected.

    Edit: I don't even crit much as I did before the update also.

  14. #134
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    *snip snip* speaks about heal/repair
    Go test some actual damage spells and come back to us.
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  15. #135
    Community Member Vengeance777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Tested lightning bolt sla on my sorc, did around 1k+ non crit before the update, now it only does around 300. Vortex tick for 1k per tick before the update, now it only does 500. Tested energy burst on sorc, before the update it deal around 6-7k non crit, now it only does around 3k. On wiz, unequip twilight deal the same damage on spell as I equip it back. Positive healing spell work fine on cleric and repair spell on arti doesn't seem to be affected.

    Edit: I don't even crit much as I did before the update also.

    Tested on my sorc as well. Getting pretty much the same numbers as you are.

    I had to swap to spamming Prismatic Ray to banish and Greater Sunburst to blind the mobs to contribute at all in an Epic CITW earlier. Even with the damage boosts in the demonweb the damage from my lightning spells wouldn't top 500.

    Something is seriously wrong with damage spells especially the Savant SLAs.
    Last edited by Vengeance777; 05-23-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    Go test some actual damage spells and come back to us.
    Damage spells are a little harder to test because of the variable nature of dice. It makes you happy though, here:

    10 casts of Lightning Bolt with +21 Implement bonus:
    298
    273
    291
    297
    308
    291
    285
    314
    320
    291
    Average: 296.8

    10 casts of Lightning Bolt without Implement bonus:
    275
    256
    292
    287
    241
    286
    297
    292
    287
    292
    Average: 280.6

    That's an average of 16.2 damage more when using an implement bonus even though the Electric Spellpower entry on the sheet staid the same.

    That's different from spell damage having gone down. I do agree Spell Damage has gone down but far more significant than an Implement Bonus could account for. The highest Implement Bonus in the game currently is +21, but not even loosing 21 Spell Power would make a 1K Energy Burst tick only for 500 anymore.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Tested lightning bolt sla on my sorc, did around 1k+ non crit before the update, now it only does around 300. Vortex tick for 1k per tick before the update, now it only does 500. Tested energy burst on sorc, before the update it deal around 6-7k non crit, now it only does around 3k. On wiz, unequip twilight deal the same damage on spell as I equip it back. Positive healing spell work fine on cleric and repair spell on arti doesn't seem to be affected.

    Edit: I don't even crit much as I did before the update also.
    There does seem to be a significant bug with spell criticals right now, but from the numbers you are describing, it sounds like they actually fixed a bug with spellpower (looks like you mixed up the vortex & bolt damage numbers though). I can't really say for certain on the Twilight part, but with the amount of spellpower it adds, the 'same damage' you are seeing is just within the normal variance of the spell; you need to come back with several hundred consecutive bolts recorded for any real conclusion on that.


    Code:
    Lighting Bolt
      4 -   6 ( 5 average) per caster level
     72 - 108 (90 average) at CL 18 (10 + 3 [savant] + 3 [draconic] + 2 [ToD]
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    150  Maximize Spell
     75  Empower Spell
    ---------------
    649  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
     72 - 108 * 6.49
    ---------------
     467.28 -  700.92 damage (584.10 average)
    
    
    
    Energy Vortex
      1 -   6 ( 3.5 average) per character level
     25 - 150 ( 87.5 average) at level 25
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    ---------------
    424  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
     25 - 150 * 4.24
    ---------------
     106 -  636 damage (371 average)
    
    
    
    Energy Burst
     16 -  30 ( 23 average) per character level
    400 - 750 (575 average) at level 25
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    ---------------
    424  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
    400 - 750 * 4.24
    ---------------
    1696 - 3180 damage (2438 average)
    Edit: Forgot to include sorcerer capstone enhancement
    Last edited by Muspellsheimr; 05-23-2013 at 10:51 PM.

  18. #138
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr View Post
    There does seem to be a significant bug with spell criticals right now, but from the numbers you are describing, it sounds like they actually fixed a bug with spellpower (looks like you mixed up the vortex & bolt damage numbers though). I can't really say for certain on the Twilight part, but with the amount of spellpower it adds, the 'same damage' you are seeing is just within the normal variance of the spell; you need to come back with several hundred consecutive bolts recorded for any real conclusion on that.


    Code:
    Lighting Bolt
      4 -   6 ( 5 average) per caster level
     72 - 108 (90 average) at CL 18 (10 + 3 [savant] + 3 [draconic] + 2 [ToD]
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    150  Maximize Spell
     75  Empower Spell
    ---------------
    649  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
     72 - 108 * 6.49
    ---------------
     467.28 -  700.92 damage (584.10 average)
    
    
    
    Energy Vortex
      1 -   6 ( 3.5 average) per character level
     25 - 150 ( 87.5 average) at level 25
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    ---------------
    424  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
     25 - 150 * 4.24
    ---------------
     106 -  636 damage (371 average)
    
    
    
    Energy Burst
     16 -  30 ( 23 average) per character level
    400 - 750 (575 average) at level 25
    
    100  Base
    100  Enhancements
     20  Sorcerer Capstone
     30  Draconic Incarnate
    120  Item
     24  Implement Bonus
     15  Planar Conflux Set
     15  Draconic Mind Set
    ---------------
    424  Total Effective Spellpower
    
    
    400 - 750 * 4.24
    ---------------
    1696 - 3180 damage (2438 average)
    Edit: Forgot to include sorcerer capstone enhancement
    The spellpower I'm getting from item (electric, force, etc.) did nothing, only the universal spellpower added up.

    Ex: I did 1k+ non crit with lit bolt sla b4 update, 2.6k crit on a non-stunned target with weakness. Now it only deal 300 dmg non crit and 700 crit. Vortex tick for 1k+ on target with weakness on them non crit and 2.7k crit and now it only does around 500-600 and 1.5k crit. Same case for energy burst, lose about 2/3 of its original spellpower. Force, electric, fire, sonic, negative, etc. spellpower from items doesn't work, only universal and positive/repair spellpower work.

    I don't mixed up lit bolt and vortex dmg numbers.

    And isn't sorc capstone still broken? :P some friends report that 20 percent dmg from it is not working.

  19. #139
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    I've noticed on my shiradi that it would appear that shavarath lava and deep tar has been removed. Or at the very least been reduced in proc chance. Was wondering if anyone else noticed this or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Ex: I did 1k+ non crit with lit bolt sla b4 update, 2.6k crit on a non-stunned target with weakness. Now it only deal 300 dmg non crit and 700 crit. Vortex tick for 1k+ on target with weakness on them non crit and 2.7k crit and now it only does around 500-600 and 1.5k crit. Same case for energy burst, lose about 2/3 of its original spellpower. Force, electric, fire, sonic, negative, etc. spellpower from items doesn't work, only universal and positive/repair spellpower work.
    I'm telling you that the damage you did prior to the update was FAR GREATER than what it was supposed to be. What you claim to be doing now is much closer to what it should be. In addition, as of U18 spellpower now has a display error - the actual spellpower of your spells is calculating correctly, and likely not what is shown on the character sheet.

    The sorcerer capstone is a text error; it should be adding 20 spellpower, not 20% damage.

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