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  1. #1
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    Question The etiquette of raid loot

    I've been running CitW a lot recently. I'm TRing my current favorite toon into a Juggernaut next life and so looking for Sireth and, more importantly, Pinion. I'm mainly aiming for 20th completion as i know this will be my best bet. Hopefully Pinion is in list........

    Up until my 16th run i'd never had an item drop for me. On my 16th Celestia dropped. Great! But i wont use it next life or in the foreseeable future, so i put it up for role and the Cleric won it. Awesome, very happy for him.

    On my next run I got both a CoH (amazing, prob only the third to drop). Someone also put Sireth up for role so i rolled (d146 low or something like that). I rolled 16! Woop! Then a Sorc18/Monk2 rolled on it. And got 9. I asked him if he planned on TRing the character. He replies "no, why?". WHY? Because, despite what you believe you're not DPS (although one of his guildies in the raid 'telled' me right away saying 'dont worry man, he will use it, he is great DPS'). Well i got news for you man. He aint. I watched him the entire raid (as i was interested to see if the "spell sword" idea can work at end game) and, when he wasn't avoiding the Lolth fight by standing around doing nothing/hiding, he was generally running away from MOBs beating on him as he flailed his greatsword around.

    This was particularly frustrating. I know everyone is absolutely entitled to make a character anyway they want and play the game for their own enjoyment (i'm a huge advocate for this) but when it comes to raid loot that is extremely hard to get, what is the general consensus on the etiquette here??

    I know I'm ranting. It's kinda frustrating. Deep in my heart i say, you won the roll, all power to you buddy. But the devil on my shoulder growls and says 'he stolesss it from usssss, preeeecious'!!

    /rant over :-S

  2. #2
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    sadly not really much you can do about it. people do this all the time so usually if i have an item for roll i usually limit it to the people who can use it right away but that is just me.

  3. #3
    Community Member Maxallu's Avatar
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    Only rule needed:

    Your loot is your loot. Do as you please.
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    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Only rule needed:

    Your loot is your loot. Do as you please.
    Agree

    This is also a good reason why many do not pug raids or they are selective. Too many idiots like that sorc running around griefing. Sure, he won the roll fair and square, but he is still an idiot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Only rule needed:

    Your loot is your loot. Do as you please.
    I would have to agree here and have followed it for some time.

    There are just too many other things to focus on, than someone not getting a piece of 'Loot'.

  6. #6
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Only rule needed:

    Your loot is your loot. Do as you please.
    Of course and, in general, I agree.

    The point and title of the thread though is "etiquette".

    Etiquette (pron.: /??t?k?t/ or /??t?k?t/, French: [e.ti.k?t]) is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group.

    I am trying to debate the 'right' code of behavior for raid loot. "Doing as you please" might mean considering the difficulty of obtaining such raid loot and deciding not to roll on items that have been put up for grabs because you know there are builds that really require the item to be more effective and are specifically searching for that item, often for some time. IMHO a Sorcerer does not need and cannot effectively use, Sireth, for example. This is a bit like a Ranger rolling on Twilight when there are real casters in the group who could put it to more effective use.

    If it drops for you, sure, do what you please. No one is under any obligation to put items that drop for them up for roll (however i would think that most people would do the altruistic thing in this situation).

  7. #7
    Community Member Xaxx's Avatar
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    Ok don't take this the wrong way, but I've seen more than a few people get bent out of shape over people rolling for raid loot saying "its for my next life" when they themselves could use said raid loot right then this life.

    I've also seen your side of the argument....

    To be fair... as long as the loot is to be used by who won the roll... well....

    Also to be fair, if you were in a group and an item you were after.. say pinion... dropped and there was you on your character your gonna tr into a jug, and an 18/2 fighter/monk bow kensai in the party... would you simply not roll against him and encourage others to do the same since pinion would be his MAIN weapon but not yours? Answer that honestly, not *oh sure yeah I'd do that" without thinking about it, answer it honestly. Because 90% of people in the game (at least) would not care what so ever and roll against the archer anyway, because *I can use it to*.

    We're not talking about proxy rolling, we're not talking about pitch and switch, we're not talkin about someone rollin on an item just for spite, then selling it to the vendor because "haha your ta suxxorz" or some **** like that.

    Maybe the other guys build was ****, and his guildies telling you HES GREAT DPS.... maybe that should make you reconsider running with said guild and people again or just out and out squelching them if you felt they were THAT horrible.

    Sorry op, but in general consensus the 18/2 has as much right to roll on it as you did.

    The only true 100% enforceable rule of raid loot is your loot is your loot. One that's not completely enforceable but that if broken often can bring the entire server down on your rear is use what you roll on. Other than that, deal with the future involving said guild how you wish, remember the loot rules they go by can easily be thrown back at them at some point down the road if the roles are reversed or said loot in question is in the chest under your name.

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    I guess you are better off holding any named item you have and offering it up as trade not roll.

    If no one is willing to trade then take it and sell it or use it (Like your sorc friend )

    Unless you know for certain that someone is the run would benefit from getting the item, there is no need to place anything up for roll.

    I have formed this opinion about loot from running "a lot" of raids. Winning rolls and not getting loot, having loot and being told to hand it over and what I find worst of all, is watching a toon pull a named item,take it, then whinge about others not putting theirs up for roll (After you watched that person use the item in run and boost about it).

    As previously posted your loot is yours, get what you can for it

  9. #9
    Community Member Son_of_the_South's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Xaxx;5004947]Ok don't take this the wrong way, but I've seen more than a few people get bent out of shape over people rolling for raid loot saying "its for my next life" when they themselves could use said raid loot right then this life.

    I've also seen your side of the argument....

    To be fair... as long as the loot is to be used by who won the roll... well....

    Also to be fair, if you were in a group and an item you were after.. say pinion... dropped and there was you on your character your gonna tr into a jug, and an 18/2 fighter/monk bow kensai in the party... would you simply not roll against him and encourage others to do the same since pinion would be his MAIN weapon but not yours? Answer that honestly, not *oh sure yeah I'd do that" without thinking about it, answer it honestly. Because 90% of people in the game (at least) would not care what so ever and roll against the archer anyway, because *I can use it to*.QUOTE]

    I have, in fact, been in this situation. I was in a CitW when a Pinion was up for role and one guy had stated that he wanted it specifically (Ranger). I said id roll for it, then was reminded by a friend that this guy was specifically looking for it and it he would be using it for this build NOW so I opted not to roll and we all agreed it should go to the Ranger. I guess this is my etiquette and those of the people I play regularly with.

    However you are all have valid points and, as I said, fair is fair. He won the roll. More power to him. I wouldn't do it but im not him.

  10. #10
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    sadly not really much you can do about it. people do this all the time so usually if i have an item for roll i usually limit it to the people who can use it right away but that is just me.
    This.

    EG If I pull Antipode (I don't own Monk), I will offer it to my Guildie Monks, Druids or Arties (for pet collars), then to any Pug monks, then to any Druids and Artis, then finally to anyone else.

    When I eventually pulled the Pinion I let the whining Rangers roll for it even though I wanted it myself. But I won the roll fair and square.

    My loot, my choice.

    That said, if someone wants to try selling raid loot, I don't much care for that. Its their loot so its their choice but I don't have to like it. I just won't raid with them again.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South View Post
    I've been running CitW a lot recently. I'm TRing my current favorite toon into a Juggernaut next life and so looking for Sireth and, more importantly, Pinion. I'm mainly aiming for 20th completion as i know this will be my best bet. Hopefully Pinion is in list........

    Up until my 16th run i'd never had an item drop for me. On my 16th Celestia dropped. Great! But i wont use it next life or in the foreseeable future, so i put it up for role and the Cleric won it. Awesome, very happy for him.

    On my next run I got both a CoH (amazing, prob only the third to drop). Someone also put Sireth up for role so i rolled (d146 low or something like that). I rolled 16! Woop! Then a Sorc18/Monk2 rolled on it. And got 9. I asked him if he planned on TRing the character. He replies "no, why?". WHY? Because, despite what you believe you're not DPS (although one of his guildies in the raid 'telled' me right away saying 'dont worry man, he will use it, he is great DPS'). Well i got news for you man. He aint. I watched him the entire raid (as i was interested to see if the "spell sword" idea can work at end game) and, when he wasn't avoiding the Lolth fight by standing around doing nothing/hiding, he was generally running away from MOBs beating on him as he flailed his greatsword around.

    This was particularly frustrating. I know everyone is absolutely entitled to make a character anyway they want and play the game for their own enjoyment (i'm a huge advocate for this) but when it comes to raid loot that is extremely hard to get, what is the general consensus on the etiquette here??

    I know I'm ranting. It's kinda frustrating. Deep in my heart i say, you won the roll, all power to you buddy. But the devil on my shoulder growls and says 'he stolesss it from usssss, preeeecious'!!

    /rant over :-S
    Few days ago, i was on CitW raid. While we waiting for the lolth+ana chat, raid was commenting "Im looking for x and y" I told i was looking for the warhammer. So odds where favorable and the warhammer drops on someone else. He put it for roll, i roll for, like a 5 or so.. 20 or so secs happend without noone rolling and then pum, a random barbarian roll for it and beat my roll. The barbarian commented he was looking for Cleaver, so the guy who owned the item passed it to me instead to him.

    Why? Cause it was his loot and he decided i wanted more than him and the barbarian just rolled for roll.

    Your loot its your loot, but as other said, you can make decitions bout who "need" or who "greed"

  12. #12
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    Maybe I'm one of the idiots but if any loot comes up for a roll and I am looking for it for an alt, I'll roll for it even if my current toon isn't specced for it. I won't roll just for the sake of it and I certainly won't vendor trash it for some arbitrary reason.

    Loot that is up for roll is up for roll.

  13. #13
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    The character of the guy who won the roll might be a bad build. He might be a bad player.

    But he desires that weapon because he plans to use it on his current life. Not because he is a greedy donkey that just rolls on everything to vendor it for a few coppers, or because someday he might perhaps have a reason to consider using it (aka pure greed). Or to silently slide it to a guildy who lost his roll on it.

    He wants the item to use it. This gives him all the right to roll on it and he won fair and square.
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    Hey i was in that raid too..Probably with ribopaido my ex druid now jagg...it was totally pathetic and i hate ppl that greed ..And trust me this sorc wasnt doing anything!!!!
    Sad to see looters...

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    If I get an item I might use in the future in CITW I keep it since they are so hard to get when you are looking for them.

    with the enhancement pass looming I ended up keeping Pinion which was my weapon at end game and fully upgraded it. I kept the repeating heavy crossbow and handwraps because after the enhancement pass I could change into an arti or go melee more with a monkcher for the furyshot benefit. I even took agony with my 20th end reward list in case I end up fighting with two weapons even thought I passed a few to others during raids.

    My rule is if I need an item I will loot it if it drops and roll on it if the opportunity comes up. If I might need an item (crossbow, wraps) I will keep it if I loot it but won't roll on it. I don't feel right rolling on an item I might use although I did roll on cleaver once since I was strongly considering Jug as a build and then declined to take it after winning the roll. I don't expect anyone else to follow this - it's just what I do.

    I passed 4 items in CITW and won one item with a roll. I passed 3 items in FOT and never rolled on a single item. If someone is upset because I kept my loot that is their issue and not mine.
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    This post can easily be answered because its been asked many times before, "your loot, your decision" with the caveat "accept that not everyone agrees with you." I can empathize with you that it is frustrating to run content and not get the loot that you want. But its important to just let it go. Part of the function "your loot your decision mentality" seems to be a way of helping players cope with this kind of frustration.

    Lets boil down the situation and then examine it hypothetically in reverse. We have two players that were employing some melee combat. One was (in their own opinion) doing a better job of melee than the other. A melee item falls, its put for roll, and the player who could use it less effectively won the roll and received the item. I recall a ToD raid where the encrusted ring fell (way back when that raid was end-game). Two barbs rolled on it, but a bard won the roll. Granted, the bard did have some barbarian multi-class but the person who put it up for roll in chat said that they were giving it to the barb who rolled highest, rather than the bard, because they could use it better. As you might imagine, all hell broke loose on the forums with people arguing over raid loot etiquette.

    So I don't see a solution that everyone will agree to. What should we do instead? Weight dice rolls by kill counts, adjusted for party functionality (healing/buffing/raising), weighted by group consensus of who can properly use an item? That opens up another long-winded discussion that will in the end leave no one happy. So at the end of the day, its up to the person who originally looted it to determine its fair distribution. The general consensus seems to be no proxy rolling or selling, but beyond that they can give it out how they see fit even though not everyone will agree with that decision or want to run with them again.
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    Let's see, what is this now...the millionth thread about this topic?

    The etiquette is that the item was put up for a roll, people who wanted to roll did so, and someone other than OP won the roll.

    We can make all the assessments that we desire. Winner's DPS isn't great. Winner won't use item as well as OP. Winner plans to TR, OP does not. Winner can't even use item. Winner sells item to vendor.

    Maybe the winner simply thinks the item looks cool for his character. Maybe it fits their character concept for RP reasons.

    Any and all of these are completely irrelevant to the fact that the roll was won by someone other than OP. While I can certainly understand the disappointment, I'll never understand the angry judgement.

    Here, the OP acknowledges much of what I've mentioned - and yet the question remains "what is the general consensus?" It appears to be the same as it always has been. So we're not breaking any new ground here.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South View Post
    I've been running CitW a lot recently. I'm TRing my current favorite toon into a Juggernaut next life and so looking for Sireth and, more importantly, Pinion. I'm mainly aiming for 20th completion as i know this will be my best bet. Hopefully Pinion is in list........

    Up until my 16th run i'd never had an item drop for me. On my 16th Celestia dropped. Great! But i wont use it next life or in the foreseeable future, so i put it up for role and the Cleric won it. Awesome, very happy for him.

    On my next run I got both a CoH (amazing, prob only the third to drop). Someone also put Sireth up for role so i rolled (d146 low or something like that). I rolled 16! Woop! Then a Sorc18/Monk2 rolled on it. And got 9. I asked him if he planned on TRing the character. He replies "no, why?". WHY? Because, despite what you believe you're not DPS (although one of his guildies in the raid 'telled' me right away saying 'dont worry man, he will use it, he is great DPS'). Well i got news for you man. He aint. I watched him the entire raid (as i was interested to see if the "spell sword" idea can work at end game) and, when he wasn't avoiding the Lolth fight by standing around doing nothing/hiding, he was generally running away from MOBs beating on him as he flailed his greatsword around.

    This was particularly frustrating. I know everyone is absolutely entitled to make a character anyway they want and play the game for their own enjoyment (i'm a huge advocate for this) but when it comes to raid loot that is extremely hard to get, what is the general consensus on the etiquette here??

    I know I'm ranting. It's kinda frustrating. Deep in my heart i say, you won the roll, all power to you buddy. But the devil on my shoulder growls and says 'he stolesss it from usssss, preeeecious'!!

    /rant over :-S
    Your position seems unfair. After all, on a jug, you are likely 16 Arty / 2 Monk / 2 (ranger / pally). So, if he can't roll on it for being a 18 sorc, should a 16 arty be allowed to roll on it? Shouldn't you have to roll on only the crossbow?

    Really, he could be trying to build a variation of something like the jug. As a sorc, he gets recon and tensor's transformation as spells too. He can cast displacement instead of scrolling it. Don't get me wrong, overall, arty seems as a better base class for it. But by your description, he was in melee, and it sounds like he was really planning on using Sireth. I see no reason that your unusual not normally thought of as a melee class build should be allowed to grab it but his couldn't (aside from the fact that yours is forum-approved). Like the jug, maybe most of his melee power comes from destinies and he just hadn't finished farming over to LD or Fury yet.

    I was in a raid not long ago where people were confused as to why the Arty (clearly a jug) kept fighting in melee. This cuts both ways. Now, I can understand doing need before greed on items you put up for roll. A sorc can clearly get better use out of a Telvi's ring (since it requires the tier 3 PRE to get the +2 MCL), but a general melee weapon? Seems like anyone who is in melee would be fair to roll on that.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South View Post
    I've been running CitW a lot recently. I'm TRing my current favorite toon into a Juggernaut next life and so looking for Sireth and, more importantly, Pinion. I'm mainly aiming for 20th completion as i know this will be my best bet. Hopefully Pinion is in list........

    Up until my 16th run i'd never had an item drop for me. On my 16th Celestia dropped. Great! But i wont use it next life or in the foreseeable future, so i put it up for role and the Cleric won it. Awesome, very happy for him.

    On my next run I got both a CoH (amazing, prob only the third to drop). Someone also put Sireth up for role so i rolled (d146 low or something like that). I rolled 16! Woop! Then a Sorc18/Monk2 rolled on it. And got 9. I asked him if he planned on TRing the character. He replies "no, why?". WHY? Because, despite what you believe you're not DPS (although one of his guildies in the raid 'telled' me right away saying 'dont worry man, he will use it, he is great DPS'). Well i got news for you man. He aint. I watched him the entire raid (as i was interested to see if the "spell sword" idea can work at end game) and, when he wasn't avoiding the Lolth fight by standing around doing nothing/hiding, he was generally running away from MOBs beating on him as he flailed his greatsword around.

    This was particularly frustrating. I know everyone is absolutely entitled to make a character anyway they want and play the game for their own enjoyment (i'm a huge advocate for this) but when it comes to raid loot that is extremely hard to get, what is the general consensus on the etiquette here??

    I know I'm ranting. It's kinda frustrating. Deep in my heart i say, you won the roll, all power to you buddy. But the devil on my shoulder growls and says 'he stolesss it from usssss, preeeecious'!!

    /rant over :-S
    Many people will say "your loot is your loot to do with as you please" including allowing sorcs (2 monk levels: smirk) to roll on a melee weapon but it is frustrating. I personally think that if there are people in the quest right now that could use the item they should get it over even someone who claims they will TR. But people make their own decisions about their loot.

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