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  1. #121
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Let's see, has DDO never seen exploits this bad? Really? I witnessed at least two economy- and game-breaking exploits during my active play time, and Turbine handled them way worse, like allowing them to go on for ages and not punishing the exploiters beyond 3-day bans. This was fixed within days of discovery, there was active, transparent communication from the dev team, and the effect on the economy has already been minimized. They've shown that they're not afraid to perma-ban exploiters and punish people who spread exploit info, and even gave out free stuff. If Turbine handled DDO crises in such a manner, I would've still been playing actively. In DDO, on the other hand, during the challenges exploit, inflation effect lasted for months, and I bet there's still people with banks full of ill-gotten epic gear from another.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewSlarden View Post
    I am happy with how the issue was handled. There was frequent and relevant communication by the devs.
    Amen. As a note, the reason NWO is quickly gaining likes in FB and the like is because they actually use these resources actively, especially during crisis management.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's not just stamina that's there. I went in with cheat engine after reading about it. There is a bunch of stuff client side. Stamina is just the only one someone has made a third party program to exploit so far.
    *shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    I stumbled across the source code for one such program this morning... Now I have looked hard for DDO tools ( like a DAT defragmenter that works. Yes DAT files are fragmented, despite everything they say ) and there's almost zilch, nada, nothing to be found.
    DDO is older, likely with fewer people, and even less exploitable for cash. Also, DDO doesn't have that many PvPers, so motivation for cheating is also lower.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 05-23-2013 at 04:46 AM.

  2. #122
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post

    *shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.
    Because storing variables client side is a very rookie move. If it was ten years or so ago and this was one of the first mmo's made it would be excusable, however enough mmo's have been made that dev's should know that exploiters are everywhere and you need to store things server side or you will have rampant cheating.

  3. #123
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Because storing variables client side is a very rookie move. If it was ten years or so ago and this was one of the first mmo's made it would be excusable, however enough mmo's have been made that dev's should know that exploiters are everywhere and you need to store things server side or you will have rampant cheating.
    I don't disagree with you on that, all I'm saying is, the proper course of action would be to contact support/bug report such information and report anyone you know who uses these exploits, rather than take them out for a spin and then brag about it/encourage further cheating on a different forum.

    If anything, this'll probably just affect PvP so I don't really care about it. Also, if the punishment is strict enough, most people will think twice before cheating. But you know, just saying this as a matter of principle.

  4. #124
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Let's see, has DDO never seen exploits this bad? Really? I witnessed at least two economy- and game-breaking exploits during my active play time, and Turbine handled them way worse, like allowing them to go on for ages and not punishing the exploiters beyond 3-day bans. This was fixed within days of discovery, there was active, transparent communication from the dev team, and the effect on the economy has already been minimized. They've shown that they're not afraid to perma-ban exploiters and punish people who spread exploit info, and even gave out free stuff. If Turbine handled DDO crises in such a manner, I would've still been playing actively. In DDO, on the other hand, during the challenges exploit, inflation effect lasted for months, and I bet there's still people with banks full of ill-gotten epic gear from another.
    They rolled the game back 7 hours for an exploit that was happening for 3 weeks or more. Then they only banned mains. Most of the zen are either on alts or in STO or another one of their games overloading their markets. Anyone want to buy a cat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    *shrug* I'm not sure why it's so popular to blame the devs for exploiters. It's the latter who are cheating, so if you see it, it should be witness->report->cheater permabanned, rinse and repeat. If you're seeing bugs/exploits and use them for gain or even "teh lulz", you don't deserve to be a part of the community. Would you do the same in DDO? I know that good guilds in both games actively disapprove of such behavior.
    Many people reported the exploit 2-3 weeks before someone took major advantage of it in their AH browser. Alot of the people who reported it as a bug were also banned. So the very people who helped by putting in a ticket, after paying for founders packs and the like, were also disciplined. Sounds like an automated system at work here. Now, where have we seen such before. Oh wait....

    They also use completely automated systems for chat banning if people get reported for spam. This means if someone ticks me off, I send a message to my guild to report all (insert name here) chat in general channel as spam, and they can no longer talk in chat, guild, whisper, zone, etc...for 24 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    DDO is older, likely with fewer people, and even less exploitable for cash. Also, DDO doesn't have that many PvPers, so motivation for cheating is also lower.
    Yes, older, meaning most people already have what they want.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #125
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I don't disagree with you on that, all I'm saying is, the proper course of action would be to contact support/bug report such information and report anyone you know who uses these exploits
    I think part of the problem is that PWE is not stopping the exploits, which were reported back in closed beta. I know I kept silent but at this point I actually mailed ten ton hammer and massively about the exploits and how to do them in hopes that more people knowing will actually get things fixed.
    , rather than take them out for a spin and then brag about it/encourage further cheating on a different forum.
    Performing the exploit is wrong but sometimes it feels you have to pass the info around to get things done
    If anything, this'll probably just affect PvP so I don't really care about it. Also, if the punishment is strict enough, most people will think twice before cheating. But you know, just saying this as a matter of principle.
    Actually imo even if they permabanned it wouldn't have much effect on a f2p game as you just cheat on a f2p account and if it gets banned, even without leveling exploits you can cap in a couple days. And actually it isn't just PVP some builds can use this for god mode one shots.

  6. #126

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    So much misinformation in the last few pages.

    First of all, the exploits that were fixed were not known in closed beta, and were only used by a significant measure on the 19th. They only became an issue to the economy on the 19th, and the exploits are defeated and all guilty found and banned, including mule accounts. The few that utilized the exploit before the 19th are being tracked down and banned. Most are already found and banned. Cryptic is following the AD and are really good at telling bad money from good.

    Furthermore, Cryptic is aggressively handling several other exploits, one by one. This is why the game is still in beta. There is much more to be done before you'll see the beta tag removed

    Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.

    There's not a post you made in this thread that accurately defines the reality, which is currently well in hand. And to re-enforce previous threads, the game IS in an open beta phase.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-23-2013 at 09:42 PM.


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  7. #127

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    Here's today's update - its a big one by Andy Valasquez - which covers many of the items mentioned in this thread, and a bunch more:

    http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631

    The line affirming what I've been saying throughout the thread:

    "Speaking of testing, as we progress through OBT and near the official live launch, we'll be standing up a Public Test Shard or PTS. "
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-23-2013 at 05:50 PM.


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  8. #128
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Post Here you go

    This is from one of the top guys at Neverwinter Online.
    Andy Velasquez, Neverwinter Lead Producer
    http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631
    You will notice in this statement that it is said it is still in open beta.
    Some of the things that they have addressed so far.
    Was beat to it/
    Last edited by chance2000; 05-23-2013 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Was beat to it
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  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by chance2000 View Post
    This is from one of the top guys at Neverwinter Online.
    Andy Velasquez, Neverwinter Lead Producer
    http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=896631
    You will notice in this statement that it is said it is still in open beta.
    Some of the things that they have addressed so far.
    Haha sorry for the ninja


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  10. #130
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Many people reported the exploit 2-3 weeks before someone took major advantage of it in their AH browser.
    Most people CLAIM to have reported the exploit. There's a subtle but significant difference here.

    Now here's a hard fact for you: there was a clipping bug in one of the epic dungeons used for exploiting, which surfaced on the forum 1-2 days ago. It was fixed in the latest patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    So much misinformation in the last few pages.

    Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.
    Well, IIRC (haven't been on DDO so much lately), Chai is widely known here for trusting rumor/speculation more than facts. Though to be fair, some of the recent rumors are getting more difficult to distinguish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Performing the exploit is wrong but sometimes it feels you have to pass the info around to get things done
    That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?

    There's a good reason why devs/mods exert strict control over the spread of exploit info. It's not because they're evil, it's because it does more harm than good. And from what I've seen, they actually pay attention to posts on the forums, PMs and bug reports, so if you really wanted to get "something done", there are ways to do so properly without hurting the community in the process.


    P.S. The Zen to AD exchange yesterday was already close to what it was prior to the exploit, will probably normalize in a week or two. There are no cats on sale anywhere. AH opened and nothing disastrous happened beyond some dumping due to people farming for a few days without means to sell, wit prices mostly back to normal-ish after a few hours. I think Cryptic's done their job well.

  11. #131
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Most people CLAIM to have reported the exploit. There's a subtle but significant difference here.
    Nope. It was reported 2-3 weeks ago,. by myself and a few others in my guild. We got responses on it, and they knew about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Now here's a hard fact for you: there was a clipping bug in one of the epic dungeons used for exploiting, which surfaced on the forum 1-2 days ago. It was fixed in the latest patch.
    Which was also known about for a longer period of time. The forums are not where bugs are reported or the first time. They are where people complain about them not being fixed after weeks in the wild.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Well, IIRC (haven't been on DDO so much lately), Chai is widely known here for trusting rumor/speculation more than facts. Though to be fair, some of the recent rumors are getting more difficult to distinguish.
    Wrong. Much of what Ive been saying for the past 6 months is happening. So much for trusting rumors.


    That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    There's a good reason why devs/mods exert strict control over the spread of exploit info. It's not because they're evil, it's because it does more harm than good. And from what I've seen, they actually pay attention to posts on the forums, PMs and bug reports, so if you really wanted to get "something done", there are ways to do so properly without hurting the community in the process.
    And yet just above youre acting like when we hear about it on the forums its the first time the company heard about it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    P.S. The Zen to AD exchange yesterday was already close to what it was prior to the exploit, will probably normalize in a week or two. There are no cats on sale anywhere. AH opened and nothing disastrous happened beyond some dumping due to people farming for a few days without means to sell, wit prices mostly back to normal-ish after a few hours. I think Cryptic's done their job well.
    This is also incorrect. The exchange rate is up past 45 and is nearing 50. Before the exploit it hovered near 35. Rumors versus facts? Mirror.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #132
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    So much misinformation in the last few pages.

    First of all, the exploits that were fixed were not known in closed beta, and were only used by a significant measure on the 19th. They only became an issue to the economy on the 19th, and the exploits are defeated and all guilty found and banned, including mule accounts. The few that utilized the exploit before the 19th are being tracked down and banned. Most are already found and banned. Cryptic is following the AD and are really good at telling bad money from good.

    Furthermore, Cryptic is aggressively handling several other exploits, one by one. This is why the game is still in beta. There is much more to be done before you'll see the beta tag removed

    Chai I dont know where you come up with this stuff.

    There's not a post you made in this thread that accurately defines the reality, which is currently well in hand. And to re-enforce previous threads, the game IS in an open beta phase.
    Myself and other guild members reported that exploit in closed beta and received responses on it, that it was already known.

    Doesn't look like beta to me. Of course youll just dismiss this, as it doesn't support your claim.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ... Much of what Ive been saying for the past 6 months is happening.

    Myself and other guild members reported that exploit in closed beta and received responses on it, that it was already known.

    Doesn't look like beta to me. Of course youll just dismiss this, as it doesn't support your claim.


    And I already told you that the L is a display bug, per Sominator, go ask him yourself.

    Now as for the rest of your claims in this thread, and your 6 months of hypothesis, let's see who should we believe, the very active lead producer of the project (Andy Velasquez) or Chai?

    Let me get back to you on that one.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-24-2013 at 08:39 AM.


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  14. #134
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    And I already told you that the L is a display bug, per Sominator, go ask him yourself.
    A display bug? You realize they could change this back if they wanted to at a moments notice right?

    And I already explained to you how they announced the game was live, then redacted that when the exploits they knew about for 2+ weeks got so huge that they had no other choice but to answer for it.

    That dude will say what hes paid to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Now as for the rest of your claims in this thread, and your 6 months of hypothesis, let's see who should we believe, the very active lead producer of the project (Andy Velasquez) or Chai?

    Let me get back to you on that one.
    Please dont. People who will defend at all costs, regardless of how bad it gets, are not being realistic. I think the game has potential, but there are far too many exploits, and features that do not enforce good community etiquette that need to be changed before they will have a game that has a decent amount of replay value.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #135
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is also incorrect. The exchange rate is up past 45 and is nearing 50. Before the exploit it hovered near 35. Rumors versus facts? Mirror.
    Ahahaha. This here just shows how much we can trust your claims. Exchange last night was at 380-390 and falling, which isn't even close to your numbers. So yeah, allow me to trust my eyes and the more reputable sources like dev communication

    EDIT: Correction, it's at 360 now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    A display bug? You realize they could change this back if they wanted to at a moments notice right?

    And I already explained to you how they announced the game was live, then redacted that when the exploits they knew about for 2+ weeks got so huge that they had no other choice but to answer for it.
    They never announced it was live. They've stated it was OBT from the start in all communications - I still have that e-mail for the Alpha team in late April saying "This is your last chance to participate in Neverwinter Alpha testing before we go into Open Beta", for example.

    If that's not enough here's some logic - the Founders' Program. They've announced that it's ending soon, and also that the game will be out of Beta soon. You're a Founder if you're there from the start - from Beta. Makes sense to me.

    Moreover, RaiderZ, another PWE game, handled OBT EXACTLY the same way. Cept people weren't complaining about it.

    Finally, if they really were in the middle of a huge sh*tstorm and lying through their teeth - they would try to have as little, not as much communication with the player base as possible. If you understand how PR works, you'll agree. Or you could look to Turbine for examples.

    That's if all this is not bloody obvious - what released MMOs have scheduled DAILY downtimes and patches, or placeholder icons for items? But of course we can trust tinfoil hat theories and rumors over what makes logical sense, cause it supports what you're trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Please dont. People who will defend at all costs, regardless of how bad it gets, are not being realistic.
    Neither are people who whine/flame at all costs, even beyond logic. Making this argument pointless. I just wish such people would stop spreading misinformation just out of spite.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 05-24-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  16. #136
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post

    That's a really weak justification. As an analogy, would you steal from a store just to show their security isn't up to snuff?
    Actually it's a long running debate.

    Some hackers when they find a bug in software security notify the company but when the company doesn't fix the bug for an extended period of time, release the information to news outlets to put pressure on the company to fix the problems it has.

    It's an ethical debate, some call it grey hat, I still see it as a white hat. I think in someways you could tie it to the dnd alignment system. Not making it public and continuing to wait would probably be lawful good, releasing the info after the company has done nothing for an extended time is probably chaotic good.

  17. #137
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Actually it's a long running debate.

    Some hackers when they find a bug in software security notify the company but when the company doesn't fix the bug for an extended period of time, release the information to news outlets to put pressure on the company to fix the problems it has.

    It's an ethical debate, some call it grey hat, I still see it as a white hat. I think in someways you could tie it to the dnd alignment system. Not making it public and continuing to wait would probably be lawful good, releasing the info after the company has done nothing for an extended time is probably chaotic good.
    You can debate vertical alignment, but horizontal alignment is clearly chaotic, which I don't like. Unfortunately, cheating in online games isn't punishable in quite the same ways as hacking.

  18. #138
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    You can debate vertical alignment, but horizontal alignment is clearly chaotic, which I don't like. Unfortunately, cheating in online games isn't punishable in quite the same ways as hacking.
    See for me I don't like lawful types, because outside of certain laws (murder is bad) most laws are written by those in power, to create more power for themselves.

  19. #139
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Ahahaha. This here just shows how much we can trust your claims. Exchange last night was at 380-390 and falling, which isn't even close to your numbers. So yeah, allow me to trust my eyes and the more reputable sources like dev communication

    EDIT: Correction, it's at 360 now.
    Way to quote the lowest. There were two orders for that amount. Most are still in the 400+ range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    They never announced it was live. They've stated it was OBT from the start in all communications - I still have that e-mail for the Alpha team in late April saying "This is your last chance to participate in Neverwinter Alpha testing before we go into Open Beta", for example.
    Wrong - they sure did announce it, and redacted that anouncement when they had to patch the shinola out of all the exploits and bugs the community was no longer allowing them to ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    If that's not enough here's some logic - the Founders' Program. They've announced that it's ending soon, and also that the game will be out of Beta soon. You're a Founder if you're there from the start - from Beta. Makes sense to me.
    Youre a founder if you PAY THEM to gain the founder tag by buying the founder pack. It has absolutely nothing to do with some arbitrary date where they change the beta tag to live tag.

    And the "founder program" has been "ending soon" for 6 weeks now. I have a feeling that Soon™ in DDO and Soon™ in NW are very similar in definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Finally, if they really were in the middle of a huge sh*tstorm and lying through their teeth - they would try to have as little, not as much communication with the player base as possible. If you understand how PR works, you'll agree. Or you could look to Turbine for examples.
    I agree, I like the fact that they tell us what the exploit it and tell us what the consequences are for those who did it. It shuts up the "if they dont define it as an exploit its perfectly legit" crowd real quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    That's if all this is not bloody obvious - what released MMOs have scheduled DAILY downtimes and patches, or placeholder icons for items? But of course we can trust tinfoil hat theories and rumors over what makes logical sense, cause it supports what you're trying to say.
    Its not a tinfoil hat theory simply because you disagree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Neither are people who whine/flame at all costs, even beyond logic. Making this argument pointless. I just wish such people would stop spreading misinformation just out of spite.
    Ive posted both positive and negative on NW as I do on these boards as well. People arent spreading misinformation out of spite. Its not hard to understand that someone can like a game and still post about negative things in order to provide feedback about how the game could be better. What needs to be understood here is the error being made is calling the game beta AND taking money at the same time. Once players pay for things, they have all the clout they need to provide any desired feedback. When the white knights tell PAYING CUSTOMERS to stop complaining, hilarity ensues.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #140
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default Answers alot here

    We are pleased to announce that Neverwinter, the most anticipated action MMORPG of 2013, will be transitioning out of Open Beta on June 20th!

    There ya go.
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