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  1. #101
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years. Only 1 complaint was never resolved out of 49 in three years. In the last year Cryptic dealt with 5 complaints, zero issues with billing. Last billing complaint was back on 02/21/2012.

    Turbine had 127 complaints in 3 years, more than double. 10 of them were related to billing. In the last 12 months Turbine was hit with 30 complaints, six times the amount of Cryptic.

    These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern... just opinions. When it comes to real monetary concerns, both companies have taken care of business, in almost every case.

    http://www.bbb.org/boston/business-r...-hgts-ma-81889

    http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-...atos-ca-221613
    The BBB rating is heavily influenced by whether or not the complaint was resolved. This is why company A can have alot of complaints and have a higher grade than company B who has less, because if company B doesnt resolve their complaints they will have the lower grade.

    Cryptic /PW deals with alot of countries that have far better consumer protection laws than here in the US as well. If people post a complaint, and PW denies them a refund, they can basically just call their card company and do a chargeback declaring that what was bought was not delivered, and this will look far worse on their business rating.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Cryptic /PW deals with alot of countries that have far better consumer protection laws than here in the US as well. If people post a complaint, and PW denies them a refund, they can basically just call their card company and do a chargeback declaring that what was bought was not delivered, and this will look far worse on their business rating.
    Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage. Both companies here have done a wonderful handling money if they dealt with so few complaints in the millions of gamers that use/play their products.

    The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money. The truth is, and I'm a lifelong fan of the BBB, the BBB has turned into a forum every bit like an internet forum due to the advent of them accepting internet based complaints. You cannot paint a true picture of the two companies by looking solely at those two reports.


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  3. #103
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years.
    I'd agree with your assessment if we'd be talking about a difference between A to B or B to C, but A+ to F? Please.

    Also, it is besides the point since I was bringing the whole thing up mostly to show both companies (Turbine and Cryptic) had bad things<tm> happen in the past with their billings. Six people going so far to file complaints with the BBB proofs that no one ever had billing issues with Cryptic how again?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern.
    You serious? Yeah, the DDO forums are totally filled with mindlessly devoted fans. What are you saying? That if someone complaints about Turbine they voice a real concern, but if someone complaints about something with Cryptic they are merely whining?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money.
    That's another good example.

    Turbine had a billing issue that caused a problem for four! people (of which two caused a stink). That's a huge issue and totally proof how worse the company is.
    Cryptic had issues with billing in the past but because it only affected a minute percentage of their customers it doesn't really count.

    Please, tell me you can see how silly this is starting to get because I really used to have a lot of respect for your opinions.
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  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    I'd agree with your assessment if we'd be talking about a difference between A to B or B to C, but A+ to F? Please.

    Also, it is besides the point since I was bringing the whole thing up mostly to show both companies (Turbine and Cryptic) had bad things<tm> happen in the past with their billings. Six people going so far to file complaints with the BBB proofs that no one ever had billing issues with Cryptic how again?



    You serious? Yeah, the DDO forums are totally filled with mindlessly devoted fans. What are you saying? That if someone complaints about Turbine they voice a real concern, but if someone complaints about something with Cryptic they are merely whining?



    That's another good example.

    Turbine had a billing issue that caused a problem for four! people (of which two caused a stink). That's a huge issue and totally proof how worse the company is.
    Cryptic had issues with billing in the past but because it only affected a minute percentage of their customers it doesn't really count.
    Look at those reports again. How many customers do you think Cryptic and Turbine serviced in the past 12 months? How many overall complaints did they get? How many were billing issues?

    Both companies had problems, both showed improvements, but considering that you and I actually have a good handle on how many issues make it to the company websites alone, those are awfully low numbers of folks that took it as far as the BBB. That means to me that both companies have handled an aweful lot of complaints. The BBB are simply the ones they let get away... That small a sample does not define a company's integrity. There's many many other criteria that comes into play, at least for me anyway.

    As for whiners, trust me when I tell you, as bad as we've seen it in DDO-land, its nothing compared to other gaming sites out there. DDO is a great community, NWO also is a great community, but deal with a younger demographic many of which have a different way of communicating. Whats so interesting with the NWO community however, and this is largely because its a D&D poduct, is that there is a very loyal group of old farts like me on there!! But I digress

    Please, tell me you can see how silly this is starting to get because I really used to have a lot of respect for your opinions.
    I bet anything if we were having this convo in person, we'd be shaking hands at the end of it.

    Sometimes forums arent the best place for getting your point across, hell I'm getting a headache just typing to you (not because of you but because of our new upgraded Grey & White website).

    Either way, I still respect you for your opinions, including this one. I just think we are nitpicking on the reports and think we are closer than you might think on frustrations with DDO and Neverwinter.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 09:11 PM.


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  5. #105
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    Now that I've had some time to digest this bug and the way it resolved, I am reasonably satisfied that PW made the best call given the nature and extent of the bug involved. There is a bit of a heated debate at the moment. Some people want a complete server wipe and others are upset that 7 hours of gameplay were rolled back. Most are like me and seem satisfied with how it was resolved.

    One bit of irony is that during the downtime from this rather massive bug, Neverwinter "likes" on their facebook page went up rather fast - even passing up DDO which had a 100,000 like headstart. I don't know what facebook likes really mean, but I assume it correlates roughly the size of the fanbase.

    It's great to see both D&D MMOs with over 100k facebook likes and 2 terrific (albeit flawed) products.

    I don't really understand the exploit or how it impacted the game economy, but the game is just as fun for me today as it was yesterday. The exploit is really a non-issue for me.

    I am happy with how the issue was handled. There was frequent and relevant communication by the devs.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    The difference is the fact that they feel they'd like to add more to the game - and fix more before it leaves beta phase. There is still stress testing and other types of testing which required larger sample size than closed beta phase offered. They feel the beta tag is warranted, and so do I.
    This would be valid, if they were doing wipes at the end of the beta phase. The fact that they are running the cash shop and not wiping characters makes the choice of terms nothing more than weaseling out of responsibility, though.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    weaseling out of responsibility
    Weasle? They are running a business. They always said they were going to take this path. People knew for months that a live open beta would follow closed beta. They are making bug fixes and making changes on an almost daily basis. They test and code every day. They also update the community on a regular basis and are clearly workin hard.

    An important part of responsibility to me is communication with the playerbase. During the dowtime, there was a constant presence and non-stop tweets. And I mean non-stop. The longest pause I saw was ten minutes, which was mostly related to waiting on other parties to confirm information before they released it to the public. The twitter->facebook->forums->internal update cycle was impressive to watch from my vantage point.

    Again DDO is my favorite game, by a longshot, and I truly have a ton of respect for the peeps at Turbine (to me its never ddo vs nwo), but when did we ever see updates every 10 minutes during any downtime, none the less something as large as this??

    Say the game sucks, but dont say they are weasling responsibility. There's a lot of misinformation that was broadcast -- Exploit found exploit defeated and they caught who they needed to catch. In very very short order with minimal impact to the game economy (which is already back to normal) or 99.99999% of the player population.


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  8. #108
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Turbine did a great job in a much easier environment 7 years ago, but still was privy to game braking exploits eventually. If DDO was "the new shiny" today, it would have been broken the same way Neverwinter is now.
    As someone who's played DDO since the 10 day beta access I got for preordering the game, I can positively attest that game breaking exploits have been present in DDO since(at a minimum) when the very first raid came out. I wouldn't really qualify that as "eventually". I'm pretty sure there were some zero day game breaking exploits, but I can't confirm those from my experience in parties, only from second hand sources.
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  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    As someone who's played DDO since the 10 day beta access I got for preordering the game, I can positively attest that game breaking exploits have been present in DDO since(at a minimum) when the very first raid came out. I wouldn't really qualify that as "eventually". I'm pretty sure there were some zero day game breaking exploits, but I can't confirm those from my experience in parties, only from second hand sources.
    Yeah but remember, I've been around as long as well, and I was personally impressed with how well Turbine held it together in the early days. Sure there were exploits, but they fixed them all before they broke the game back in the first 2-3 years (or we wouldnt be here now). Again, its not DDO vs NWO for me. I like both games and respect both developers. My only point though was if DDO came out in today's market, the exploiting lowlifes would be poking the same holes in DDO that they did NWO. There were lots of duping going on in those days, but Turbine got a handle on matters much quicker then much of the competition did.


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  10. #110
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage. Both companies here have done a wonderful handling money if they dealt with so few complaints in the millions of gamers that use/play their products.

    The few complaints that the BBB took, a minute percentage had a problem with money. The truth is, and I'm a lifelong fan of the BBB, the BBB has turned into a forum every bit like an internet forum due to the advent of them accepting internet based complaints. You cannot paint a true picture of the two companies by looking solely at those two reports.
    Then how did PW/Cryptic get a far worse grade?

    One can pretty solidly objective paint a picture of how those companies handle serious customer disputes by looking at BBB reports. The reason why people get so dismissive of this is because they never had a serious subjective customer dispute, combined with dismissing all issues the company has by using the adjective "beta" to allow them unlimited license to take money while not delivering what was paid for.

    And no, chargebacks do not damage the consumer unless they have a pattern based habit. Many European countries have far better consumer protection laws than the US, where people can screw up your credit uncontested on 3 different reports simply over a personal dispute. If something is declared not fit for purpose, chargebacks cannot be held against them.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #111
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Chargebacks can also look bad on consumers though... and do far more damage.
    More damage? Not really. The consumer only has itself and family to worry about. Companies have employees (and hence their families) let alone stock holders (when appropriate).

    What follows is something I saved off from a post I never made a while back, but the damage aspect is still appropriate.

    ------------------------------

    While trying to figure out some legalese terms I stumbled across this.

    setup: Gold farming was a lot more obvious back in the day, but as a player the only aspect I ever thought about was how it was messing with the game economy.

    http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Real_world_trading

    Subsection: RWT Criminal Behavior

    "Perhaps the most significant issue that Jagex had to directly face was the use of stolen credit cards being used to pay for membership fees by RWT organisations. The credit card information was obtained from other criminal activities and then used to help pay for the gold farmer accounts on member worlds... where after a certain period of time it would be reported that the card was stolen. When this happens, the "vendor" (in this case Jagex) is required by the credit card agreements to "pay back" the charges that were not authorized by the legitimate account holder. This issue very directly impacted Jagex from a fiscal standpoint, and represented a significant loss of income for Jagex as a company. It is usually up to the "vendor" to try and recover the money if they can, but considering most of these RWT companies are well outside of the jurisdiction of a UK court there is little chance of actually recovering this money or even finding out who is responsible for the charges.

    According to Jagex:

    What ultimately proved to be the final breaking point for Jagex was when several of the banks that provided the credit card processing services for Jagex started to charge a much higher processing fee due to the excessive number of charge-backs that were happening compared to other internet-based companies. It should be noted that Jagex wasn't necessarily singled out individually, as nearly all on-line gaming companies have had to address this issue to one extent or another. In addition, these banks threatened to completely cut off these financial services, report Jagex to various credit bureaus as a fraudulent enterprise, and issued an ultimatum that Jagex had to get the RWT issue under control. Quite literally, the very existence of Jagex as a company was threatened and had anti-RWT policies and game changes not been enacted, RuneScape as a game would no longer exist either. "

  12. #112
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Yeah but remember, I've been around as long as well, and I was personally impressed with how well Turbine held it together in the early days. Sure there were exploits, but they fixed them all before they broke the game back in the first 2-3 years (or we wouldnt be here now). Again, its not DDO vs NWO for me. I like both games and respect both developers. My only point though was if DDO came out in today's market, the exploiting lowlifes would be poking the same holes in DDO that they did NWO. There were lots of duping going on in those days, but Turbine got a handle on matters much quicker then much of the competition did.
    Well, we're not allowed to talk about any specifics, but I'll just say that some of these items persist to this very day, and leave it at that.
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  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    Well, we're not allowed to talk about any specifics, but I'll just say that some of these items persist to this very day, and leave it at that.
    Sadly, you are correct. Back in the day they did it for sport, now its done many times because it's their only job.

    As far as Cryptic goes, the jury is still out how they will handle cheaters. Just too early to tell, however compared to past experiences in other games, it seems they have learned a lot and are engaging their entire team to address each and every bug/exploit they can. They've made 10 patches in the last 20 days, that's a whole lot of fixes, so as long as they stay active and vigilant, they'll remain above water and keep the majority of the honest folks engaged and happy.

    Just like in DDO here, guilds are the strength of the game over there. On average it seems those are the ones really stick around and support a game like ours (DDO & NWO).
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-21-2013 at 04:00 PM.


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  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    More damage? Not really. The consumer only has itself and family to worry about. Companies have employees (and hence their families) let alone stock holders (when appropriate).

    What follows is something I saved off from a post I never made a while back, but the damage aspect is still appropriate.
    Absolutely. Cant minimize the impact to companies. Its just that as a current small business owner, I can tell you 1st hand that many folks dont have a clue what a chargeback can do to your credit and buying power. It be listed as an unpaid balance on your credit report and dissuade businesses from lending to you. In today's market, where its so hard to get credit, banks are looking for any reason not to lend to you. Have a few blemishes, a few chargeback on your file, that paints a picture. Bad customers = bad credit risk.


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  15. #115
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Absolutely. Cant minimize the impact to companies. Its just that as a current small business owner,
    Ah, now that paints a different picture. Most of us are just grunts at companies so we don't have such worries.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Ah, now that paints a different picture. Most of us are just grunts at companies so we don't have such worries.
    Nah man we are all grunts, we all cater to others wants and needs or we are broke. Dig this: "Being good in business is the most fascinating kind of art. Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art."- Andy Warhol.


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  17. #117
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    Well it's confirmed now. Neverwinter has an even worse bug than the AH bug in concept now. They store multiple character variables client side instead of server side during gameplay. That means that "hacking" programs can change these values to create a "god" mode of play. It's pretty standard that you don't give the client anything like this in a mmo because there are always exploiters and hackers and sadly I don't know if this is even a bug that could be easily fixed as it involves changing a lot of variables in client server communication.

  18. #118
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Well it's confirmed now. Neverwinter has an even worse bug than the AH bug in concept now. They store multiple character variables client side instead of server side during gameplay. That means that "hacking" programs can change these values to create a "god" mode of play. It's pretty standard that you don't give the client anything like this in a mmo because there are always exploiters and hackers and sadly I don't know if this is even a bug that could be easily fixed as it involves changing a lot of variables in client server communication.
    I stumbled across the source code for one such program this morning... Now I have looked hard for DDO tools ( like a DAT defragmenter that works. Yes DAT files are fragmented, despite everything they say ) and there's almost zilch, nada, nothing to be found.
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  19. #119
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Infinite Stamina is the first one after the rollback people are seeing abused. This is geting more and more hilarious by the day.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #120
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Infinite Stamina is the first one after the rollback people are seeing abused. This is geting more and more hilarious by the day.
    It's not just stamina that's there. I went in with cheat engine after reading about it. There is a bunch of stuff client side. Stamina is just the only one someone has made a third party program to exploit so far.

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