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  1. #21
    Community Member dotHackSign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    NWO posted there will be no wipe. Sure a wipe would be easier on removing exploiters gains, but it would be tough to refund all zen spent in game as that too would require log analysis and tons of individual action.

    They released NWO too soon. There have been far too many high impact bugs.
    Funny, I thought it was still in open Beta...
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    Now that's a very silly comment to make. Neverwinter is in beta in name only.
    LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    The real money store has been active since day 1. Pretending it's just like any other beta when that aspect of the game is active is not at all appropriate.
    It is very appropriate. Claiming something that is quite clearly in beta as not being so just so you can claim a bug is bad is not at all appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    And this bug direct affects the real money transactions. Calling it beta does not excuse the fact they just screwed with a huge number of player's wallet.

    DDO has only ever screwed with a small number of player's wallets.
    No, it doesn't. It hits in game items. For real money transaction bugs, you can look at what Turbine did to people a month or two ago charging them for 200 months of subscriptions.

    For a more severe bug that has cost far more people far more time and has not been addressed after 5 years rather than Cryptic's 2 days, you can turn to Turbine and their memory leak causing crash on zone.

    So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!

  3. #23
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    The DDO devs deserve some praise for never making a bug as bad as the one on Neverwinter right now.

    You can make a bid on the Neverwinter auction house for a negative number. And if your negative number is bigger than any positive number, you win the item and GET THAT AMOUNT OF CURRENCY MAILED TO YOU!

    LOLOLOLOLOLOL

    The economy there is so screwed.

    Bid -50,000,000 on an item and you get the item and 50 million mailed to you!!!! haahhahahahah

    Then you take those millions of astral diamonds (the ingame currency) and you buy Zen (the real $ currency) on the Zen exchange.

    One person bought $90,000 worth of the Zen currency in a couple hours last night.



    So grats to the DDO devs for never ever ever ever screwing up that bad!
    Funny that they don't cover that internally. Basic testing 101. I found a bug like that in Elder Scrolls 3, morrowind. The bug was only producible on the xbox (went home after work and checked), however, the first pc patch had patch notes detailing the fix for the last minute bugs I found, which only could occur on the xbox.

  4. #24
    Community Member Zai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    The seller ends up losing the item and getting nothing. Still pretty bad, but they don't lose any of their currency on hand.

    And the bug has only been here for 2 days at most, not weeks.

    You can tell quite easily because this only worked for bids, not buyouts. And the negative bids only popped up on the ah about 48 hours or so ago.
    I couldn't see anything changed in the recent patch notes that could have backfired to create this issue. The only thing they touched on the AH in the last patch was removing an auction length. People have been complaining about not getting the AD for auctions sold since the game came out. If I was evil and wanted to exploit this without bringing attention to it I would have waited for auctions to get very close to completion and snipe a big negative bid in there at the last second. Nobody would see the negative bid and wonder what was going on, the exploit would stay quiet.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.
    I guess the producers of the game are morons! They are the ones saying it is live: http://www.perfectworld.com/

    See that green L next to the name Neverwinter? See the legend just above where it tells you it means LIVE? See how if it was open beta it would be an O?

    The producers are calling it live because the real money Zen store is active. The developers are calling it open beta as a tactic to try and keep down the complaints about the state of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    No, it doesn't. It hits in game items. For real money transaction bugs, you can look at what Turbine did to people a month or two ago charging them for 200 months of subscriptions.
    It is not just an item bug because the in game currency Astral Diamonds can be used to buy the real money currency Zen via the in game Zen exchange. And that is what was done. 100% of all Zen listed for sale by players was bought out on all servers! Also, some people went a different route and sold the Astral Diamonds to websites that sell the Astral Diamonds to players. Those people walked away with as much as $6000 to $7000 cash thanks to the exploit.

    Pretending this is just a minor issue involving items is blatantly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!
    1) The producers say it is live.
    2) You obviously don't understand the impact of the exploit.
    3) Turbine has not done anything close to this bad.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    I couldn't see anything changed in the recent patch notes that could have backfired to create this issue. The only thing they touched on the AH in the last patch was removing an auction length. People have been complaining about not getting the AD for auctions sold since the game came out. If I was evil and wanted to exploit this without bringing attention to it I would have waited for auctions to get very close to completion and snipe a big negative bid in there at the last second. Nobody would see the negative bid and wonder what was going on, the exploit would stay quiet.
    Well I didn't give all the details on the bug and that is likely why it's not so obvious. This bug did not affect bids made using the in game AH interface. It was only exploitable when using the web based Gateway. This is a website the devs provide that lets you login and see your characters, and perform crafting and browse the AH, without actually running the game client. It's all web based.

    That website was the source of the exploit. I don't recall seeing update notes for the Gateway being posted along with the game update notes.

  7. #27
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.
    They waffled on that pretty hard. Their website has three status for all of their games: Closed beta, Open bets, and Live.

    A few days ago NWN was marked live, with a L in a box on the PW main site and there was a thread saying NWO is now LIVE!! They also took all the open beta logos off their site, temporarily...

    When the exploit reports started rolling back in, where 2 different classes could one shot kill t2 epic bosses and players could bid a negative value on their AH to receive huge amounts of shards, PW/Cryptic went right back to their wonderful little 'its still in beta" spiel, even though its been like 4 days now that its been marked live. All those "beta" logos went right back up on their site.

    So yes, it is "beta" in name only, as an excuse for releasing a game WAY TOO EARLY. Also note that their devs are posting on twitter by the hour now since the servers came down that there will be no mass wipe, no start over, nothing. At this point the word "beta" is simply a semantic detail, and regardless if they continue to use it or not, the end result will be the same.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #28
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    LOL! It was just released in open beta. Not "in name only" but in fact. Claiming otherwise is moronic.
    Exactly.

    It'd be open, it would be open to the general public while NWO currently ... well, it is open to the general public.
    However, open games require you to spend real money whereas NWO you buy stuff ... with real money.
    But the line where games go from testing into open is usually marked by a final reset and NWO ... did a final reset and from now on there will be no more resets.

    Maybe I am a moron. So could you please explain in simple terms how NWO is different from a fully open game other than just calling it beta? Because, y'know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck and I cannot see anything "moronic" in saying it seems to be a duck. Not even if the duck keeps claiming it is a merely in beta and will one day be an oxen.

    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    So, you're arguing the sky isn't blue with your "it isn't actually a beta", you're wrong about the bug's impact, you're wrong that Turbine hasn't done worse. 3 for 3. Good job!
    Because it is absolutely not moronic to equate a bug which potentially allows every single player to purchase virtually every convenience and the ultimate end-game gear across three games with /some/ people crashing when entering a zone.

    Speaking of which, why are (some) people over at NWO claiming they keep getting disconnected from the serves while in (outdoor) zones or is zone crashing also fine as long as the company uses the cop out of "being in beta"?

    Beta is probably one of the most abused terms in gaming industries (right up there with "hotfix") as meaning, we are actually open but would like a grace period where we are not held responsible for the quality of the product. Historically though quantity and severity of bugs rarely decreases once game leave beta.
    Last edited by Beethoven; 05-19-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default Perhaps you should tell PW

    Perhaps you should tell Perfect World / Cryptic their game is no longer in open beta.
    They did not seem to get that memo.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chance2000 View Post
    Perhaps you should tell Perfect World / Cryptic their game is no longer in open beta.
    They did not seem to get that memo.
    I guess you didn't bother to read the thread. Perfect World's website, right now, says it is live.

  11. #31

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    The game is still in open beta folks, after all it just phased in on April 30. I agree, the terms "live" and "Beta" typically mean something very very different nowadays.

    Cryptic has long stated that beta would be very old school in its definition. They are very much still in a testing phase. The dev team is very much still active, just like they were in alpha phase. Today's cheaters unfortunately require much more time spent in safeguards, because they spend so much more time trying to break the systems. This is the risk all game developers face today. You cant eliminate cheaters and exploiters. But you can make a more enjoyable environment for the honest players and those that are there to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

    Turbine did a great job in a much easier environment 7 years ago, but still was privy to game braking exploits eventually. If DDO was "the new shiny" today, it would have been broken the same way Neverwinter is now.

    All that really matters at the end of the day is that they get the economy fixed, close the exploit, and ban the accounts. Its very much to their credit that they didnt do a wipe as that would be unfair to the large majority of the playerbase, who had nothing to do with it. Instead they are taking time to learn rectify and go after each toon and account who took advantage, whether its dummy accounts or not. They have very sophisticated means of tracking goods back and forth, and they are taking advantage of it with a full team of engineers.

    Open beta will last quite a while. The game is not "live", the open beta is "live".


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  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    They are the ones saying it is live: http://www.perfectworld.com/

    See that green L next to the name Neverwinter? See the legend just above where it tells you it means LIVE? See how if it was open beta it would be an O?
    This is a display bug. The game is in open beta.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 12:59 AM.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    This is a display bug. The game is in open beta.

    I have to admit, I have stayed out of this thread until I observed how this was handled by NWO.

    But frankly, the quoted comment made me laugh so hard my cat got stuck in the mini blinds.

    Note to self: Never bust out laughing so hard you make your cat jump into the blinds and get stuck.
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  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So yes, it is "beta" in name only, as an excuse for releasing a game WAY TOO EARLY.
    Actually it really is still in beta. There's no question the game is in a testing phase. Its not just a typical marketing beta. And this exploit proves there was a need to stay in beta until they feel ready.

    As far as "releasing" the game way too early I agree 100%. However, people need to get paid and sometimes you just have to press the green button and work together as a team and a community to tighten the bolts. I would have loved to see double or triple the classes developed before release but its just not practical in todays market.

    The game is very playable, very fun, and it was time to move to the next phase. I think we'll see them hard at work for at least another 4-6 months before they are out of open beta.


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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    the quoted comment made me laugh so hard my cat got stuck in the mini blinds.
    Glad you find it amusing, but the fact is I know what I speak of.


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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    Maybe I am a moron. So could you please explain in simple terms how NWO is different from a fully open game other than just calling it beta? Because, y'know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck and I cannot see anything "moronic" in saying it seems to be a duck. Not even if the duck keeps claiming it is a merely in beta and will one day be an oxen.



    Because it is absolutely not moronic to equate a bug which potentially allows every single player to purchase virtually every convenience and the ultimate end-game gear across three games with /some/ people crashing when entering a zone.

    Speaking of which, why are (some) people over at NWO claiming they keep getting disconnected from the serves while in (outdoor) zones or is zone crashing also fine as long as the company uses the cop out of "being in beta"?

    Beta is probably one of the most abused terms in gaming industries (right up there with "hotfix") as meaning, we are actually open but would like a grace period where we are not held responsible for the quality of the product. Historically though quantity and severity of bugs rarely decreases once game leave beta.
    You are definitely not a moron Beethoven. However some of the bugs you mention are exactly the reason to continue to call it exactly what it is, open beta. Just because they did a final reset doesnt mean there's not more bugs to fix, more classes/content and many other details to cover before they feel comfortable announcing the game is out of it's final beta phase.

    I completely agree with you that the term "Beta" is one of the most abused terms in gaming, no question about it. In this case however, they fact that there is clearly more work to do, they are perfectly in the right to keep the game in beta phase. More sophisticated cheaters require more time to develop/redevelop systems to dissuade them.

    I am of the same mind when DDO was under the same fire -- lets not blame the developers who work hard to put out a fun game, or the engineers who make broken things work again, blame the cheaters and the exploiters who have nothing else better to do but cheat and profit for their own benefit, at the expense of others (whether monetary or simply enjoyment).
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 01:33 AM.


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  17. #37
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Default Beta is live

    NWO Beta is live the official live release has not happened.
    As of this moment people can still buy the founder's packs.
    Just because a few in the DDO forums claim the game is not in beta does not make it so.


    We are still investigating the situation. There is a high likelihood that we will be performing character-specific rollbacks on any accounts that were found to be utilizing the exploit. Additionally, we are investigating the extent of what can additional steps can be taken to remove any illegitimately obtained Astral Diamonds that have entered into the economy. We are also investigating the possibility of a shard-wide rollback.

    This is from Cryptic/PW
    And this one was just posted


    5.19.13 - Server Status Update and Important Announcements

    Dearest Beta Testers and Bravest Adventures,

    In the dark hours of this Sunday morning an in-game bug was discovered and taken advantage of by a very small group of villainous Nashers intent on exploiting Neverwinters Open Beta Gateway and Auction House systems for unearned Astral Diamonds.

    Thanks in no small part to the efforts of our continually amazing Beta community, we were able to quickly identify the exploit and the perpetrators. Once identified, we took immediate action, calling in the entire development and publishing teams to lock down the Neverwinter OBT as we sought out a solution.

    Rest assured, the issue has been corrected and we have taken appropriate action against all players who took advantage of the bug, including but not limited to enforcing permanent bans.

    Sadly, the damage to the economy was done.

    Rather than let the malicious efforts of a few unsavory players linger and continually impact the games economy and balance as we progress through these later stages of Open Beta, we have made the extremely difficult decision to rollback Neverwinter to a time shortly before the abuse and exploitation began.

    This means that roughly seven hours of progress made between 5:20 AM and 12:20 PM Pacific Time will be lost to all players. For that, we do sincerely apologize.

    Following an extensive QA check, Neverwinter will begin again as soon as possible. We hope to have them available soon, and will continue to post updates on the forums and other channels.

    When the servers do come back up, a few systems will not be active: the Auction House and the Astral Diamond exchange. When the servers are back up and running, well still be examining these features and preparing some resolutions.

    Any attempt to use the Astral Diamond exchange will give an error message. The Auction House, however, wont give an error -- it simply will fail to post the item. This is the known behavior, and were working to bring these systems back up as soon as possible.

    As a token of our appreciation for you, the community, and all that youve done for the game throughout these days of Beta, we will be sending a thank-you gift to players and opening ourselves up on the forums and various other channels to answer any and all questions we can.

    For more exact details on the rollback and other efforts related to it, please see our comprehensive forum FAQ.

    With sincerest thanks for the continued support and feedback,

    Your Neverwinter Team
    Last edited by chance2000; 05-20-2013 at 01:35 AM.
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  18. #38

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    Ha ya beat me to it Chance, good reporting!

    And a woop arse job by Cryptic engineers it seems.


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  19. #39
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    Wow, there really are some gullible people out there. The reason that they make the claim that they are still in 'beta', despite having released their game, is because they have still not lived up to the preorder promises that they made. The game is live in absolutely every sense of the word. The only thing that is 'beta' about it is a trick of language that allows them to short change those who bought in before hand, while they benefit from having a released product.

  20. #40
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Actually it really is still in beta. There's no question the game is in a testing phase. Its not just a typical marketing beta. And this exploit proves there was a need to stay in beta until they feel ready.

    As far as "releasing" the game way too early I agree 100%. However, people need to get paid and sometimes you just have to press the green button and work together as a team and a community to tighten the bolts. I would have loved to see double or triple the classes developed before release but its just not practical in todays market.

    The game is very playable, very fun, and it was time to move to the next phase. I think we'll see them hard at work for at least another 4-6 months before they are out of open beta.
    The word "beta" is mere semantics, used by the appologists in that game as an excuse for anything that could possibly go wrong when it does go wrong. Either the game is open to the general public and accepting any and all payments, or its not. And since it is, the word beta is irrelevant in most customers eyes. When stuff goes this horribly wrong, the status of beta versus live really doesnt mean much to paying customers, who expect to get what they pay for.

    The L for live is NOT some oversight or bug. They actually took all beta logos off their sites for 3-4 days, and when these 2 MAJOR exploits were reported, put them all back up, but did not change the L back to O for open beta. Oops.

    I also note that both issues were reported in closed beta, and both made it to live.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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