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  1. #81
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    That is not completely true. I give the creators of neverwinter much praise for actually admitting to the fact of the exploit. Transparency like that is what makes a company great.
    Yeah, that too only would mean something if they admitted to it before the exploit became so common knowledge that it not only was freely talked about on in-game channels but spawned an own internet meme, not after.

    What transparency? They acknowledged it after it could not possibly be concealed anymore either and everyone and their monkey knew about it already anyway.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Yeah. No mistakes ever made by turbine. Nothing to see here.
    I never said they made no mistakes. Why are you being so dishonest about this discussion? Most of what you cried about in your previous post is not bugs, but rather things you don't like. Why don't you take those comments to a different thread and stay on the topic of bug severity in this one.

  3. #83
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
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    Very amusing that somebody in this thread is referring to Neverwinter as NWO when it clearly is not. I guess they didn't sit in at that briefing
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    When a company like perfectworld actually relates to the playerbase a true issue and isn't ashamed of it and prepared to hide it shows how that company deserves praise for being of high integrity.
    What a completely mind boggling thing to say?! How exactly could they have kept it secret that every valuable item on the AH had a huge negative number as the current bid?

    How exactly could they hide the fact that global chat was spammed continuously with people giving away the most expensive mount?

    How exactly could they have hidden the fact that the cost of buying Zen with AD had shot up to the max allowable and even still all Zen sold out?

    It is ludicrous to suggest that owning up to those glaring issues was some saintly act on their part that they did not have to do.
    Last edited by 7-day_Trial_Monkey; 05-20-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    I would rather someone got my X item of awesomesauce that should of made me 1 million AD's for free than have my child go 1 day with no nappies/ dinner etc. Remember, not everyone has family or friends able to bail them out.
    I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?

    Those stories are either:

    1) Totally fabricated BS
    2) Examples of terrible parenting.

  6. #86
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?

    Those stories are either:

    1) Totally fabricated BS
    2) Examples of terrible parenting.
    I wouldn't intentionally skate the line that close either. I'm not VIP so it didn't affect me. From what those affected DID report though they were being charged a years worth of subs.... I don't even know how much a sub is but if it was nearing the end of the month and someone took... say £150 from my bank account they yea, that would wipe me out and leave me short.

    That is not the same as treading a fine line and spending too much money on gaming though.

    Your associations don't really match. Not everyone has savings in their account. Most people actually do come close to skint by the end of the month. The recessions hitting lots of people hard and losing a hundred quid or more in one hit could easily cause problems.

    To be fair though, you are an avid supporter and defender of Turbine, we have seen that in the past. I'm not having a go, I'm not categorising you with names or anything. You are entitled to place your support wherever you feel.

    I have backed Tub's and criticised them. I would say that I thought the neverwinter bug/ exploit was worse if I thought it was but, as a victim, one only affects you in-game with fictional items the other could cause real life financial issues that at best need explaining to other, official people like banks, and at worst could cause further (short term) costs.
    Quote Originally Posted by xanvar View Post
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  7. #87
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Sad thing is from the rumors I've heard there is a worse exploit out still currently. I'm to chicken to test it, but I've heard rumors that a third party app for hacking single player games works on neverwinter. Not going to name the program on an open forum though even if it's for another game.

  8. #88
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    The game is not a perfectly aged T-bone, it still is in active development...
    Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.

    Also, as soon as you hook up a game to LIVE cash systems, I find that Beta is no longer applicable, it is live. Unless representatives of Cryptic/PW want to admit that NWO is making money off of being a broken/incomplete product currently and that consumers have only themselves to blame for buying into a broken/incomplete product because it is "beta".

  9. #89
    Community Member debo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    What a completely mind boggling thing to say?! How exactly could they have kept it secret that every valuable item on the AH had a huge negative number as the current bid?

    How exactly could they hide the fact that global chat was spammed continuously with people giving away the most expensive mount?

    How exactly could they have hidden the fact that the cost of buying Zen with AD had shot up to the max allowable and even still all Zen sold out?

    It is ludicrous to suggest that owning up to those glaring issues was some saintly act on their part that they did not have to do.

    Just the fact that they admitted there was a problem makes them praise worthy. They could have gone the way of other games and said because of errors in there billing upgrade system the game had to be taken down.

    Sure just like any other game, "We" as players will always know exploits and find them out first, and then they spread like the plaque. But just the fact that perfectworld even acknowledges it puts them a step higher in my opinion then companies that hide it from there paying player base who is powered by the fans.


    Lol Missing Minds that's like a reference to facebook games that are in perpetual beta, but also have "costing" features.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.

    Also, as soon as you hook up a game to LIVE cash systems, I find that Beta is no longer applicable, it is live. Unless representatives of Cryptic/PW want to admit that NWO is making money off of .... "beta".
    Hello!! Thats exactly what they have said all along. A "completed game" was not a line item in the Founders pack. Everyone knew buying in they were buying a game that was very much still in beta... in fact at that time it offered access to closed beta. To this day, they haven't tied in a guarantee of game phase into the Founders Packs or any other offer. That was never a condition. Many people buy founders packs solely to support the work of the designers. Legally, you are only buying the items mentioned in the offer.

    http://nw.perfectworld.com/founderspack
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 04:20 PM.


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  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The "fact?" Nope. By that definition, no game is ever out of beta, until they release their last update. They actually came out and stated otherwise a few days ago and then turned around and redacted their statements when these 2 major issues came to a point where they could no longer allow them to slide.

    The issue here, as I pointed out, is not the game or the company, its the appologists who use the term "beta" as a blanket excuse to let just about anything short of a complete game meltdown slide, and plow onto their forums telling anyone else who doesnt like it they can leave. Ive also noted that on reddit, many of those who have posted such an attitude are those receiving the banhammer. PW wasnt dumb enough to fall for the fanboi-ish posts as many of those posts were made by the exploiters themselves.
    You are dreaming there Chai. Apologiests? Are they like conspiracy theorists!?

    How can you be so confused about the definition of "open beta" how it applies in this case?

    Here maybe this will clear things up for ya,, heh enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=461KdHiewIM
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 04:10 PM.


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  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Quite frankly, any MMO that is not in active development is either dead or closing.
    Yes, indeed. But a development company (or publisher, in this case PW) that decides when they consider the game in beta or not. They have been clear all along. (And this comes from someone who gave them hell for what I perceived to be poor marketing in all of 2012, right on their public forums.)

    You know what, I'll pose this question to them on the next episode of the NOCS, but its a silly question to waste much time on... (yet it'll still be good for a couple of laughs).


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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    To be fair though, you are an avid supporter and defender of Turbine, we have seen that in the past. I'm not having a go, I'm not categorising you with names or anything. You are entitled to place your support wherever you feel.
    That is an incredibly dishonest characterization of my posting history.

    The only thing that I defend is the truth. When I see someone make a post that claims something as true when I know that it is false or when it is clearly something that they can't possibly know to be true, but rather only imagine it to be true, I point that out.

    If you care to take the time to check my posting history in the vast majority of cases I make no statement whatsoever on either side of the issue being raised. Rather I make a comment pertaining to whether or not the person making a particular claim can actually know if what they are saying is true or not.

    Sadly, people all too frequently knee jerk themselves into imagining that I am making my comments in an effort to defend Turbine. When my comments in fact frequently contain absolutely no statements in favor of or against Turbine. They are instead an attempt to highlight a poster's failure to support the claims they are making.

    This thread is discussing how severe I feel the bug in Neverwinter is relative to the bugs that have appeared in DDO.

    It does not provide any information whatsover about how upset I have been about any of the bugs in DDO. Nor should anyone imagine that any such information exists herein.
    Last edited by 7-day_Trial_Monkey; 05-20-2013 at 04:28 PM.

  14. #94
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Yes, indeed. But a development company (or publisher, in this case PW) that decides when they consider the game in beta or not. They have been clear all along. (And this comes from someone who gave them hell for what I perceived to be poor marketing in all of 2012, right on their public forums.)

    You know what, I'll pose this question to them on the next episode of the NOCS, but its a silly question to waste much time on... (yet it'll still be good for a couple of laughs).
    Already asked them. They stated they feel beta and live are the same thing, save for the intention to put more attention on content creation than bug fixes for the time being.

    This is literally stating they put out an unfinished product, which they knew the entire time.

  15. #95
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    You are dreaming there Chai. Apologiests? Are they like conspiracy theorists!?

    How can you be so confused about the definition of "open beta" how it applies in this case?

    Here maybe this will clear things up for ya,, heh enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=461KdHiewIM
    I am not the one confused about the definition of open beta. It is a semantic adjective that means absolutelty nothing to anyone else other than the company, and a small number of people who will use "its in beta so its OK" as an excuse even if PW caused the third world war, LOL (hence the term apologists). THey toss this stuff around like its a blanket license to screw up the game free of consequences, which the users will not continue to pay for. You see, once they started taking money from people, the word beta holds no meaning when something gets hosed to the point where it devalues the product people paid for.

    To a paying customer there is no difference between open beta and live. Once they took money, they must deliver what was promised for that payment in the customers eyes. And in case youre not up on your marketing 101, the customers are the most important people in that equation.

  16. #96
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    That is an incredibly dishonest characterization of my posting history.

    The only thing that I defend is the truth. When I see someone make a post that claims something as true when I know that it is false or when it is clearly something that they can't possibly know to be true, but rather only imagine it to be true, I point that out.

    If you care to take the time to check my posting history in the vast majority of cases I make no statement whatsoever on either side of the issue being raised. Rather I make a comment pertaining to whether or not the person making a particular claim can actually know if what they are saying is true or not.

    Sadly, people all too frequently knee jerk themselves into imagining that I am making my comments in an effort to defend Turbine. When my comments in fact frequently contain absolutely no statements in favor of or against Turbine. They are instead an attempt to highlight a poster's failure to support the claims they are making.

    This thread is discussing how severe I feel the bug in Neverwinter is relative to the bugs that have appeared in DDO.

    It does not provide any information whatsover about how upset I have been about any of the bugs in DDO. Nor should anyone imagine that any such information exists herein.
    Wow, thats a really long post not at all responding to the topic at hand which made up the majority of the post you quoted.

    Maybe I should have added, in my opinion, but thats how it is for the paragraph you quoted. We will leave it there and not derail further.

    As for the actual point, we disagree with the severity. That is nothing to do with previous posting habits.

    That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.

    Whereas I feel that, while it may well have damaged the in-game economy of neverwinter, losing a pixilated item and having a game economy crash is far less serious.
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  17. #97
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    I wouldn't intentionally skate the line that close either. I'm not VIP so it didn't affect me. From what those affected DID report though they were being charged a years worth of subs
    Actually, roughly a year worth of subs and another customer got charged ten times for a point purchase. The (four) affected parties had been overcharged by roughly a hundred bucks. Turbine did refund the money though and agreed to carry and all surcharges.

    You realize there have been complaints for wrong and erroneous charges filed also against both Cryptic and Perfect World and in half the cases customers complained Cryptic and PWE refused to pay surcharges? It is horrible what happened, but lets no pretend these things never happened to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    Just the fact that they admitted there was a problem makes them praise worthy. They could have gone the way of other games and said because of errors in there billing upgrade system the game had to be taken down.
    Yes, they truly have shown their integrity by only remaining silent until they no longer could sweep it under the rug. It is about as commendable as their fast reaction to a bug that directly costs them money. Please, name one case where a bug/exploit Turbine did not acknowledge /after/ it hit the gaming press?

    You are pretending there haven't been other, less known exploits/bugs Cryptic hasn't fixed, quietly and behind the scenes without public announcement. That's wrong too. Personally, I know of at least two cases where exactly that happened. Seriously, they average how much down time these days? Thrice a week? What do you think they are doing when they take the game down?

    You really want to go into the topic of integrity then you may want to explain how the BBB rates Cryptic as F, Perfect World as F and Turbine as A+?
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.
    The highlighted part directly contradicts what I have previously said.

    When talking about that specific bug I made a reference to the difference in the number of people affected.

    The number of people hit with that bug in DDO was very low.

    I consider that to be a very significant point. And because of that I do not feel it elevates the severity enough to say it's worse than what happened in Neverwinter over the past few days.

    Having money wrongly taken out of people's accounts is a terrible thing. However we are not talking about all VIPs, we are talking about just a few. The difference in scale is significant and your characterization of my opinion which completely ignores the fact that I addressed that issue of scale is entirely dishonest.

  19. #99
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    I could never agree with that. If you are skating the line that close to not be able to feed your kids then what the heck are you doing spending any amount of money on video games?
    I don't think it does contradict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    That is largely because you feel that having actual real life money taken out of your bank account is not as serious and that if it happens to someone it is, somehow, their fault for living on the breadline and not having enough to cover internet companies overcharging.
    Quote Originally Posted by 7-day_Trial_Monkey View Post
    The highlighted part directly contradicts what I have previously said.

    When talking about that specific bug I made a reference to the difference in the number of people affected.

    The number of people hit with that bug in DDO was very low.

    I consider that to be a very significant point. And because of that I do not feel it elevates the severity enough to say it's worse than what happened in Neverwinter over the past few days.

    Having money wrongly taken out of people's accounts is a terrible thing. However we are not talking about all VIPs, we are talking about just a few. The difference in scale is significant and your characterization of my opinion which completely ignores the fact that I addressed that issue of scale is entirely dishonest.
    Ok, so we debate the numbers affected.It may have been a few in DDO and many in neverwinter. But still, the fact that one affects "me" in real life and one affects "me" in-game is the important factor, to me.

    If you gave me a choice between losing the entire game, all my characters, all their items and not being able to log in at all until the servers were rolled back.

    Or

    Have £100 taken from my account unannounced at a random time when it could leave me very short, which however would still be sorted and reimbursed.

    I would still choose the first one. That has a far lesser effect on my real life. Both situations have been/ will be sorted, and NEITHER are acceptable, or good to have (just want to be clear I'm not undermining the neverwinter bug in that it is fine and dandy or anything).

    But the one that gives problems in game is less of a bother to me than the one that gives problems out of game.

    I had a bank take too much money out, it was their fault and they admitted that and sorted it eventually, but that took a week for them to get back to my creditors etc... it was a stressful 7 odd days.

    I wouldn't want to go through it again and losing items in game doesn't affect me as bad.
    Last edited by Aurora1979; 05-20-2013 at 05:31 PM. Reason: affected =/= effected... its getting late.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beethoven View Post
    You really want to go into the topic of integrity then you may want to explain how the BBB rates Cryptic as F, Perfect World as F and Turbine as A+?
    I'll take that one. BBB ranking doesnt tell the whole story, it never did, and especially so in the age of the internet where anyone can post a review/complaint. BBB lists 6 complaints for billing throughout all their games in the last 3 years. Only 1 complaint was never resolved out of 49 in three years. In the last year Cryptic dealt with 5 complaints, zero issues with billing. Last billing complaint was back on 02/21/2012.

    Turbine had 127 complaints in 3 years, more than double. 10 of them were related to billing. In the last 12 months Turbine was hit with 30 complaints, six times the amount of Cryptic.

    These ratings tells me Cryptic deals with more whiners than Turbine does, but not dealing with any real concern... just opinions. When it comes to real monetary concerns, both companies have taken care of business, in almost every case.

    http://www.bbb.org/boston/business-r...-hgts-ma-81889

    http://www.bbb.org/sanjose/business-...atos-ca-221613
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 05:41 PM.


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