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Thread: Balence II

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    Default Balence II

    Why, oh why, would a living construct have less PRR at all stages than some dude that throws on a suit of metal.

    First, it costs them a feat.

    Second, it is ample nerf that they have less AC for it.

    Third, make wf tankies excel at something sufficient to offset healing penalties.

    Fourth, uh, they are living constructs, surely they are MORE not less resistant to damage which is what this "lovely" new stat is about.

    edit.Translation: The warforged should for purposes of balance, good sense, and good taste, have more PRR.
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 05-17-2013 at 12:32 PM.

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    I'm sure* it'll be fixed* soon**.

    *: I'm 100% sure, plus/minus 100%. Or something.

    **: Either fixed as in upping the PRR to match fleshy PRR for the same armor type, or fixed as in fixing the description for warforged. Toss a coin.

    ***: Sometime between now and the end of time.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Why, oh why, would a living construct have less PRR at all stages than some dude that throws on a suit of metal.

    First, it costs them a feat.

    Second, it is ample nerf that they have less AC for it.

    Third, make wf tankies excel at something sufficient to offset healing penalties.

    Fourth, uh, they are living constructs, surely they are MORE not less resistant to damage which is what this "lovely" new stat is about.

    edit.Translation: The warforged should for purposes of balance, good sense, and good taste, have more PRR.
    I should add that I think base warforged body(+2AC) should count as light and mithril body(again a feat should count as medium). For those who think base shouldn't let's take a brief look. Wizard with base..prr 10 maybe at 20, no biggie, and remember he is made of metal. Rogue base form same as any other rogue, earthshattering, right>?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Why, oh why, would a living construct have less PRR at all stages than some dude that throws on a suit of metal.
    Because living materials, be they meat flowing with blood or wood flowing with oil, don't like being stabbed or smashed, but an inanimate suit of metal just doesn't care. Makes perfect sense to me.

    Allow me to propose an alternate solution:

    Allow Warforged to put metal armor on over-top of their vulnerable little wooden hides to provide resistance to physical damage so they don't have so much oil gushing out of all their wounds.

    I mean, embedding a magical gem is cool and all, but is there any real reason a Warforged can't build a tin can around himself?

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    I got an idea:

    Get rid of Warforged altogether.

    Balance achieved!

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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I got an idea:

    Get rid of Warforged altogether.

    Balance achieved!
    Please go play a game not based on eb. Warforged are part of this setting and I for one like that way more than the generic fantasy that is forgotten realms. (if only we could actually forget them)

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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Because living materials, be they meat flowing with blood or wood flowing with oil, don't like being stabbed or smashed, but an inanimate suit of metal just doesn't care. Makes perfect sense to me.

    Allow me to propose an alternate solution:

    Allow Warforged to put metal armor on over-top of their vulnerable little wooden hides to provide resistance to physical damage so they don't have so much oil gushing out of all their wounds.

    I mean, embedding a magical gem is cool and all, but is there any real reason a Warforged can't build a tin can around himself?
    That's what the body feat is, they plate inanimate metal over their body. Even unarmored though they should take less damage.
    Observe what happens in a video of balistic gel vs what happens when a tree is shot ext. Flesh is much more damage prone than wood and metal.

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    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    You want to have balance with WF? let;s take a look at their immunities:

    Immune to sleep. Great. make sure they can't recover HP at REST shrines.

    Remove their immunity to holds. What specific thing about a WF that makes them immune to being held? They are partially phased-out of existence, or the fact that their brain - which takes in stimuli like a fleshy - cannot be "enachanted." if they think like a humen, they can be enchanted like a human. The same goes for being paralyzed.

    They can't be energy-drained? They have no life force? Fine. They don't leave behind a soul stone either. Make them the first permadeath player character race in the game. But if they can be partially healed, they should be able to be partially dreained as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    if they are always armoed, they have less dexterity, so decrease that too.

    Get rid of this "magical poison" nonsense. Just make them immune to poison period. Or better yet, make corrosive weapons act as a Warforged poison type.

    Now THAT would be balance.

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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You want to have balance with WF? let;s take a look at their immunities:

    Immune to sleep. Great. make sure they can't recover HP at REST shrines.

    Remove their immunity to holds. What specific thing about a WF that makes them immune to being held? They are partially phased-out of existence, or the fact that their brain - which takes in stimuli like a fleshy - cannot be "enachanted." if they think like a humen, they can be enchanted like a human. The same goes for being paralyzed.

    They can't be energy-drained? They have no life force? Fine. They don't leave behind a soul stone either. Make them the first permadeath player character race in the game. But if they can be partially healed, they should be able to be partially dreained as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    if they are always armoed, they have less dexterity, so decrease that too.

    Get rid of this "magical poison" nonsense. Just make them immune to poison period. Or better yet, make corrosive weapons act as a Warforged poison type.

    Now THAT would be balance.
    Doesn't hold monster rather than hold person work on wf? Might be wrong but I remember being held before but maybe it was a bug.

    Energy drain immunity is now the only benefit for a melee wf, you want to take that away? I think you have balance no where in mind and instead have a hate of warforged probably because you've mentioned the hate of wf arcanes in previous posts. Honestly you have zero crediblity in wanting true balance from what you've posted.

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    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Doesn't hold monster rather than hold person work on wf? Might be wrong but I remember being held before but maybe it was a bug.

    Energy drain immunity is now the only benefit for a melee wf, you want to take that away? I think you have balance no where in mind and instead have a hate of warforged probably because you've mentioned the hate of wf arcanes in previous posts. Honestly you have zero crediblity in wanting true balance from what you've posted.
    First, I don't *hate* anything. I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.

    Secondly, I don't care about my credibility on the forums.

    Third, the wiki states that WF are immune to paralysis and holds. Maybe that;s changed, maybe not. I dunno. I don't play WF myself. But that seems to defy reality. Weren't they once immune to elemental earth grabs? What's the resoning for that?

    Being immune to sleep and poisons and not having to breate underwater are fair immunities. Plus they get an additional 25% on their fortification, and so on. In fact, you start stacking up their advantages over fleshy-type toons, they quickly become unbalanced right away. Their only disadvantages? Rust monsters love them (no big deal there), they take a hit with healing spells (which can be mitigated) and that's basically it. In short, there are too many items in the "strenghts" category, and not enough (or hardly any) in the "weaknesses" to create "balance."

    I don't think it is unreasonable to remove their immunity from level drains (with use negative spell power) and put it on par with their being hampered with healing spells (which is positive energy).

    And since stuff like hold person is enchantment, which affects the mind, I don't see why - seeing that the WF have a mind - that can't be hampered by that as well. But the minute anyone takes away some of the lopsided immunities of running WF, people scream bloody murder.

    As it stands - minus the fact they are no wubject to poisons, which I agree is total BS - WF are unbalanced as they sit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I don't *hate* anything. I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.

    Secondly, I don't care about my credibility on the forums.

    Third, the wiki states that WF are immune to paralysis and holds. Maybe that;s changed, maybe not. I dunno. I don't play WF myself. But that seems to defy reality. Weren't they once immune to elemental earth grabs? What's the resoning for that?

    Being immune to sleep and poisons and not having to breate underwater are fair immunities. Plus they get an additional 25% on their fortification, and so on. In fact, you start stacking up their advantages over fleshy-type toons, they quickly become unbalanced right away. Their only disadvantages? Rust monsters love them (no big deal there), they take a hit with healing spells (which can be mitigated) and that's basically it. In short, there are too many items in the "strenghts" category, and not enough (or hardly any) in the "weaknesses" to create "balance."

    I don't think it is unreasonable to remove their immunity from level drains (with use negative spell power) and put it on par with their being hampered with healing spells (which is positive energy).

    And since stuff like hold person is enchantment, which affects the mind, I don't see why - seeing that the WF have a mind - that can't be hampered by that as well. But the minute anyone takes away some of the lopsided immunities of running WF, people scream bloody murder.

    As it stands - minus the fact they are no wubject to poisons, which I agree is total BS - WF are unbalanced as they sit.
    I think WF should get an ability that activates every 30 seconds that gives attackers only glancing blows for 15 seconds.....
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    To the OP question, yes they should be technically better armored. Considering they are made of wood and metal, meaning they already have some armor in place. As for the Docent, it is simply another form of armor used to cover vunerable points that their natural body plate can't cover. It's like most armor designs in that areas that need be flexible, are usually the most vunerable. And one of the main reasons armor has undergone many variations in an attempt to add the best of both worlds. You will notice most armors are made up in layers of material and/or metals to provide good overall protection, and for the join areas are sometimes covered with a moveable plate or larger radius plate. This is why you will notice in some designs there will be neck guards, shoulder plates, pit joint plates, knee joint plates, wrist plates, etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I don't *hate* anything. I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.
    The other option would probably be to splash 2 rogue for traps and better umd but self healing is a big part of the game, if you can't self heal you are going to have problems, especially on an arcane which is typically not in mass heal range if the healer is keeping the melee pile alive.
    Third, the wiki states that WF are immune to paralysis and holds. Maybe that;s changed, maybe not. I dunno. I don't play WF myself. But that seems to defy reality. Weren't they once immune to elemental earth grabs? What's the resoning for that?
    The wiki while good is outdated on a lot since u14, but yes I think originally wf were treated like they had permanent fom, that changed quite a while back and earthgrab goes thru fom ext, I think that was back in the spell pass but could be wrong.
    Being immune to sleep and poisons and not having to breate underwater are fair immunities. Plus they get an additional 25% on their fortification, and so on. In fact, you start stacking up their advantages over fleshy-type toons, they quickly become unbalanced right away. Their only disadvantages? Rust monsters love them (no big deal there), they take a hit with healing spells (which can be mitigated) and that's basically it. In short, there are too many items in the "strenghts" category, and not enough (or hardly any) in the "weaknesses" to create "balance."
    The fort thing is good now with how monsters bypass fort with sa. However the heal amp penalty is friggin huge till epic levels. There is not a lot of heal amp available at until level 16 with a dragon touched docent. It is a huge disadvantage, I've healed quite a few tr trains now and when I can heal 400hp on a horc and 150hp on a wf tell me which melee is going to be able to stay alive best and not be a drain on the group. I can't count how many puggers (our tr train typically has about 4 members and we open up a lot of the time to puggers for the final spots to be social) I've told to stay back and use a throwing weapon when they were wf because there was just no way to keep them alive with the damage they take compared to what they heal for without me chugging sp potions which I won't do.

    I don't think it is unreasonable to remove their immunity from level drains (with use negative spell power) and put it on par with their being hampered with healing spells (which is positive energy).
    If you had experience playing them you'd change your mind. It's a big benefit but unless you can self repair (juggernaut) a wf melee is still at a huge disadvantage overall.
    And since stuff like hold person is enchantment, which affects the mind, I don't see why - seeing that the WF have a mind - that can't be hampered by that as well. But the minute anyone takes away some of the lopsided immunities of running WF, people scream bloody murder.
    Depends on how an enchantment works, how does magic work? Does it effect neurons? Wf don't have them ext ext, unless they spell out how exactly magic works detail by detail this is really not a good arguement imo.
    As it stands - minus the fact they are no wubject to poisons, which I agree is total BS - WF are unbalanced as they sit.
    The only unbalanced (maybe) wf are wf sorcs, please go play one which I'm positive from your comments you haven't before you make these claims.

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    As I just after 5 years started playing a WF Druid I will admit that I never actually looked at the discrepancy between the body types and their "Armor" counterparts as it concerns PRR.

    I remember 6+ years ago being totally impressed with a WF Fighter in the group as they seemed to take almost no damage. While they were hard to heal from a Cleric point of view, it is kind of impressive when they only take 9 points of damage through an entire fight. This was my first introduction to DR.

    But now that I'm looking at the numbers I have to admit I'm scratching my head as to why...

    Formula ?(1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65

    So a WF in Adamantine Body will be down 6 PRR to its Flesh Counterpart
    And a WF in Mithral Body will be down 1/6 th and 4 PRR to its flesh counterpart

    Now the value of this amount of PRR is actually very dependent on the Total PRR achieved. At Lower PRR values 6 may be as much as 2.5% and Higher values less than a 1% difference.

    I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I'm saying this because it make no sense to not make them the same as the difference is so miniscule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I don't *hate* anything. I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.

    Secondly, I don't care about my credibility on the forums.

    Third, the wiki states that WF are immune to paralysis and holds. Maybe that;s changed, maybe not. I dunno. I don't play WF myself. But that seems to defy reality. Weren't they once immune to elemental earth grabs? What's the resoning for that?

    Being immune to sleep and poisons and not having to breate underwater are fair immunities. Plus they get an additional 25% on their fortification, and so on. In fact, you start stacking up their advantages over fleshy-type toons, they quickly become unbalanced right away. Their only disadvantages? Rust monsters love them (no big deal there), they take a hit with healing spells (which can be mitigated) and that's basically it. In short, there are too many items in the "strenghts" category, and not enough (or hardly any) in the "weaknesses" to create "balance."

    I don't think it is unreasonable to remove their immunity from level drains (with use negative spell power) and put it on par with their being hampered with healing spells (which is positive energy).

    And since stuff like hold person is enchantment, which affects the mind, I don't see why - seeing that the WF have a mind - that can't be hampered by that as well. But the minute anyone takes away some of the lopsided immunities of running WF, people scream bloody murder.

    As it stands - minus the fact they are no wubject to poisons, which I agree is total BS - WF are unbalanced as they sit.

    Ok, fleshling, how about the dragon and various other bittie things doing double damage and stun to your tasty flesh. Oh and how about wf take half damage from the things that munch on you conversely..You are indeed a wf hater.

    Btw, wf have been taking acid damage from the poisons they are "immune" to for just about forever. In other words, real damage.
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 05-18-2013 at 03:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    As I just after 5 years started playing a WF Druid I will admit that I never actually looked at the discrepancy between the body types and their "Armor" counterparts as it concerns PRR.

    I remember 6+ years ago being totally impressed with a WF Fighter in the group as they seemed to take almost no damage. While they were hard to heal from a Cleric point of view, it is kind of impressive when they only take 9 points of damage through an entire fight. This was my first introduction to DR.

    But now that I'm looking at the numbers I have to admit I'm scratching my head as to why...

    Formula ?(1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65

    So a WF in Adamantine Body will be down 6 PRR to its Flesh Counterpart
    And a WF in Mithral Body will be down 1/6 th and 4 PRR to its flesh counterpart

    Now the value of this amount of PRR is actually very dependent on the Total PRR achieved. At Lower PRR values 6 may be as much as 2.5% and Higher values less than a 1% difference.

    I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I'm saying this because it make no sense to not make them the same as the difference is so miniscule.
    Without substantial investment the DR on a non-wf was and is better and cheaper. For instance adamantine body cost a feat and at base had 1 less DR. Is DR on a flashie generally gear or class dependent? Sure. Who had more than the wizard though? And the wizard could cast it on anyone, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I don't *hate* anything. I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.
    Wrong, I count at least 2 additional options. As someone already said, 2 rog splash, or 1/2 arti splash. That gives you 3 possible class combinations with any fleshy to get decent self healing with umd. Another option is Half elf with cleric or fvs dilly. cleric dilly will get you 95% success with heal scrolls, fvs I would guess 90%, but I'm not sure. If you count each individual split, you have a total of 6 options: fleshy pm (pure or otherwise), WF AM, fleshy 18/2 wiz/rog AM split, fleshy 18/2 wiz/arti AM split, fleshy 19/1 wiz/arti AM split, and Half elf AM (pure or otherwise) with cleric/fvs dilly. Sorry if I'm a bit late to the party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    As I just after 5 years started playing a WF Druid I will admit that I never actually looked at the discrepancy between the body types and their "Armor" counterparts as it concerns PRR.

    I remember 6+ years ago being totally impressed with a WF Fighter in the group as they seemed to take almost no damage. While they were hard to heal from a Cleric point of view, it is kind of impressive when they only take 9 points of damage through an entire fight. This was my first introduction to DR.

    But now that I'm looking at the numbers I have to admit I'm scratching my head as to why...

    Formula ?(1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65

    So a WF in Adamantine Body will be down 6 PRR to its Flesh Counterpart
    And a WF in Mithral Body will be down 1/6 th and 4 PRR to its flesh counterpart

    Now the value of this amount of PRR is actually very dependent on the Total PRR achieved. At Lower PRR values 6 may be as much as 2.5% and Higher values less than a 1% difference.

    I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I'm saying this because it make no sense to not make them the same as the difference is so miniscule.

    By the way, it is entirely possible that you are not being sarcastic but you are being dismissive, intentionally or otherwise. Do you realize that the difference you speak of represents 2 feats for warforged? Adamantine body for instance to be 6 behind and then an essentially lost shield mastery to be equal with a plate wearing equivalent melee..nevermind that they arent even using the shield.

    Yes I know that the shield adds something..on the other hand the feat adds nothing without the shield..wash the raw part the shield adds..especially with the bug

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    You seem to be so disgruntled, that you are even slinging at those that agree with you...

    Lets take out my verbose response and bring it down to the main sentences...
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    ...
    But now that I'm looking at the numbers I have to admit I'm scratching my head as to why...

    Formula ?(1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65

    ...

    I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I'm saying this because it make no sense to not make them the same as the difference is so miniscule.
    It makes no sense to me that WF have less PRR than their counterparts. The difference is small, but it makes no sense for it to be different


    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Without substantial investment the DR on a non-wf was and is better and cheaper. For instance adamantine body cost a feat and at base had 1 less DR. Is DR on a flashie generally gear or class dependent? Sure. Who had more than the wizard though? And the wizard could cast it on anyone, yes?
    DR on a non-WF comes from Gear Slot Cost or constantly keeping up Stone Skin

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    By the way, it is entirely possible that you are not being sarcastic but you are being dismissive, intentionally or otherwise. Do you realize that the difference you speak of represents 2 feats for warforged? Adamantine body for instance to be 6 behind and then an essentially lost shield mastery to be equal with a plate wearing equivalent melee..nevermind that they arent even using the shield.

    Yes I know that the shield adds something..on the other hand the feat adds nothing without the shield..wash the raw part the shield adds..especially with the bug
    Its not just possible I'm not being sarcastic, it was a fact that I wasn't being sarcastic. Personally I was shocked that there was a difference.

    I'm sorry that you felt my response was not agreeing with you, I understand that in communication that part of the "noise" that needs to be overcome is the position and interpretation of the reader. In this case it appears I failed to convey to you that I was in agreement that it does not make sense that WF PRR is LESS than its equivalent Armor Type. Hopefully that is a bit clearer on where I stand on the issue.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Adamantine body shouldn't be as protective as a full plate. A full plate is a suit of armor designed for combat, to be removed when not needed. Adamantine body is a always-on protective layer.
    It's like comparing a main battle tank and an ankylosaurus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I just dislike having basically two options for being a "good" wizzy: a fleshy PM or a WF AM. It's mind-numbing and idiotic.
    It's not good or bad. The problem lies with the healers. Since it is possible for a wizard of any race to self heal, they expect every wizard to self heal and don't even bother asking them anymore "are you AM or PM?" since being a self healing wizard is now standard. That is why making a fleshy AM is not a good idea (unless you want to UMD Heal scrolls like fleshy sorcerers).

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