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  1. #1
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    Default How should I proceed with a rogue to gain more self-sufficiency? Halfl, f2p, 28pt, l6

    Hi all,

    I seem to be drifting even more towards the self-sufficiency movement, but still as a newbie, I find I really don't know enough to make "good" decisions...

    Now, I have a level 6 halfling rogue. (Actually, I have several, but let's discuss this one first.) At the moment mechanic 1 with a sorta-halfway ranged/melee build (toughness, finesse and point blank shot), +1 int tome and unused birthday box. (Str tome from it, I guess?)

    I started with the "revisited" mechanic in https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...players/page37 , but, well...

    I have the feeling that this is insufficiently self-sufficient for my playstyle and circumstances (mostly solo or with even "worse" newbies, as in my sons...) so I was wondering if I could make this into something that could keep itself and maybe even the kids alive. Say, the dragonmark thing?

    Being as of now all-f2p and saving TP for packs, I don't have monk. But if I was to take, say, a few levels of fighter and that one of wizard for metamagics, would it still be a "viable build"?

    Say, 13 to 15 rogue, 4 to 6 fighter, and that 1 of wizard? Should I just use my LR and rework the stats for more str and no finesse, or does that reduce reflex saves too much? Or maybe swap either finesse or PBS for the first dragonmark? (Actually that does sound reasonable so I could mostly just keep playing... I'm still a newbie, I don't necessarily know what to expect in quests yet. Swap that now and take 1 of fighter next so bring it back then? Or, drop PBS altogether and just take TWF instead?)

    Or, would it make more sense to go mostly fighter, or something? I do get the feeling that mechanic might be a worthwhile thing to keep in these circumstances, what with the repeater proficiency for when ranged is needed and a doggy too, all without using a feat slot, and I'm sort of stuck with at least the 6 levels of rogue anyway now...
    Last edited by mna; 05-15-2013 at 05:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    Default use that UMDI would

    Not sure if I would just take one level of wizard. You can probably educate me on what that one level of wizard gives you.


    I use a halfling rogue/ranger. Why? You can use cure wands. You get to use buffing spells. You can DPS and you can do traps. You can range with some nice bows. I use this one to solo a lot on new servers.

    I also play with halfling wizard 18/ rogue 2. But he is not really capable of soloing much due to the one hit damage he can take and take him out.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    In general, you shouldn't multi-class a character unless you planned that multiclass from the start.

    There are several f2p builds that have some ability to do what you want, but mechanic rogue isn't really one of them.

    It's possible for veteran rogue characters to provide a surprising amount of party support, but this generally relies on having the gear to raise the use magical device (UMD) skill, and the bank roll to pay for all the scrolls. For a first character / first life rogue, I'd guess that this sort of thing isn't really possible until level 16 to 18.

    Now, what about the builds that might do what you want:

    'Exploiter' Ranger variant: Ranger 18 / Fighter 1 / Rogue 1
    Able to do traps, has reasonable melee power, able to provide some party support by using cure wands. Also has the resist energy spell, which is generally important to new (guildless) characters.

    Various Bard builds (Warchanter, axesinger, etc | usually bard 16 / rogue 2 / fighter 2 or bard 16 / rogue 2 / barbarian 2)
    Able to provide some very good party buffs, and most variants can manage reasonable melee damage. Potentially has problems with low hit points and low spell points. A bit wasted on solo play.

    Radiant Kensei and variants (Cleric 12 / Fighter 6 / rogue 2: or cleric 12 / paladin 6 / rogue 2 or cleric 12 / fighter 6/ paladin 2, etc)
    Has problems with social expectations caused by cleric icon. Some variants still able to use rogue skills.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    Not sure if I would just take one level of wizard. You can probably educate me on what that one level of wizard gives you.
    Maximize and empower for the dragonmarks, mostly. Oh, and easier time with some wands and such, but mostly the metamagics.

    I figure I could get it to have by level 20, toughness, finesse, least dragonmark, TWF, maximize, ITWF, lesser dragonmark, empower, dodge, power attack, greater dragonmark, slippery mind, and opportunist... or are there better options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    In general, you shouldn't multi-class a character unless you planned that multiclass from the start.

    There are several f2p builds that have some ability to do what you want, but mechanic rogue isn't really one of them.
    Oh, I know, but I figure that at least with the free LR (if not just a feat swap) I could still salvage this without rerolling?
    And with mechanic, I'm able to provide the trap/lock role no questions asked, but as a pure mechanic it sort of feels underpowered for soloing already and a one-trick pony in groups.

    Sure, I could rework it into assassin or something, but that's not all that much better, is it? And that's just an enhancement swap anyway (no feat prerequisites) so I could do that at any later point too, right?

    Now, with 3 to 4 fighter bonus feats, there should be enough to get the dragonmarks meta'd up and still not be too underpowered, and then there's the str and toughness fighter enhancements and higher BAB... so, more soloable, and when in groups backup healing, not useless in melee, not _completely_ useless for emergency ranged due to repeaters, and still full trap skills and UMD without expensive gear? And without rerolling too?


    Sure, it'd be "better" to start the other classes earlier to be able to balance up skill points and not need the mechanic 2 as much, but...


    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    It's possible for veteran rogue characters to provide a surprising amount of party support, but this generally relies on having the gear to raise the use magical device (UMD) skill, and the bank roll to pay for all the scrolls. For a first character / first life rogue, I'd guess that this sort of thing isn't really possible until level 16 to 18.
    Yeah, so I figure this way I might be able to get at least part way there by level 8 or 9. Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Now, what about the builds that might do what you want:

    'Exploiter' Ranger variant: Ranger 18 / Fighter 1 / Rogue 1
    ...
    Various Bard builds (Warchanter, axesinger, etc | usually bard 16 / rogue 2 / fighter 2 or bard 16 / rogue 2 / barbarian 2)
    I have three "dwarf tempest trapmonkey" builds going on different servers, and a "pale trapper", and a warchanter (although without rogue skills or even evasion, but anyway), a paladin, and... well.

    Really looking for some variety and alternative ways of doing things here, in the second character slot, and practice with the game mechanics and see _if_ this character can be salvaged without rerolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    ...
    Radiant Kensei and variants (Cleric 12 / Fighter 6 / rogue 2: or cleric 12 / paladin 6 / rogue 2 or cleric 12 / fighter 6/ paladin 2, etc)
    ...actually, in the "first" slot on that server, is an attempt at using that drow build by Phidius, currently at 7 cleric 1 ranger 1 rogue, and gets +thirtysomething for disable, for example... supposed to end up as cleric 12/ranger 6/rogue 2, but we'll see what the enhancement rework does for that.

  5. #5
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    If you solo a lot, using a healer hireling ( hires are cheap and can be bought at marketplace and other places) is the best for your selfsufficiency, also raise your umd (use magical device) skill for wands usage (can use cure serious pots too while leveling) and with some gear can get to 39 + umd for heal scrolls usage at high levels.

    Now, as a rogue mechanic, your main stats are intelligence (for damage and trap skills), dexterity (for reflex save and to hit with repeater crossbows), and some constitution for hitpoints, my advice, since you are not very experienced, is to stay pure rogue, because that gives you more dps (damage output), from more sneak attack damage. Important features: Toughness, rapid reload, precision, point black shot precise shot, improved precise shot (requires 19 dex base), improved evasion. Other fetures may help you are rapid shot, use magical device and twf line (for meele damage).

    If you want to multiclass, artificer has a very good sinergy with mechanic rogues because it can use repeater crossbows as well, giving some usfeul spells and some self healing, but if you dont have artificer class, another option is the bard class, that giives you some heal spells, displascement, haste, at the cost of some sneak damage loss, (spell singer prestige is a good combo for a mechanic rogue that wants to support a party with some inspire courage and a song that can regenerate some party's spellpoints).

  6. #6
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Hi all,

    I seem to be drifting even more towards the self-sufficiency movement, but still as a newbie, I find I really don't know enough to make "good" decisions...

    Now, I have a level 6 halfling rogue. (Actually, I have several, but let's discuss this one first.) At the moment mechanic 1 with a sorta-halfway ranged/melee build (toughness, finesse and point blank shot), +1 int tome and unused birthday box. (Str tome from it, I guess?)

    I started with the "revisited" mechanic in https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...players/page37 , but, well...

    I have the feeling that this is insufficiently self-sufficient for my playstyle and circumstances (mostly solo or with even "worse" newbies, as in my sons...) so I was wondering if I could make this into something that could keep itself and maybe even the kids alive. Say, the dragonmark thing?
    Mechanic Rogues are flavor builds. They work but are extremely difficult. In the link that is posted, the author was nice enough to point this out.

    As far as keeping the kids alive, remember everyone in the party has a role. Your job is to make sure that traps don't "eat" the party. Not sure what the kids are playing but they have similar roles according to what they play. Mercenaries should be able to help round out your party if you have a glaring weakness but DDO is pretty forgiving about party make-up.

    Being as of now all-f2p and saving TP for packs, I don't have monk. But if I was to take, say, a few levels of fighter and that one of wizard for metamagics, would it still be a "viable build"?
    Anything would technically be "viable" on a first life but not planning for a MC usually causes more problems in the future (lvl's 12-20) than staying pure. If you read the first page of that post again, the OP states that Dragon Marks are not very great or useful. Would they help with your healing/self-sufficiency? I doubt it at higher levels (15+).

    Say, 13 to 15 rogue, 4 to 6 fighter, and that 1 of wizard? Should I just use my LR and rework the stats for more str and no finesse, or does that reduce reflex saves too much? Or maybe swap either finesse or PBS for the first dragonmark? (Actually that does sound reasonable so I could mostly just keep playing... I'm still a newbie, I don't necessarily know what to expect in quests yet. Swap that now and take 1 of fighter next so bring it back then? Or, drop PBS altogether and just take TWF instead?)
    12/6/2 usually (but not always) gives you the best "bang for your buck." 12 Rogue, 6 Fighter, 2 Ranger would work but I would be extremely careful. If you haven't planned for this path, you could really destroy any synergy you may have had (You can switch the Ranger/Fighter split).

    I'm not sure what would be best for you but I would say, LR, switch your distribution of points, and plan for an assassin build. Stay pure because you never planned on MC'ing and if you want a self-sufficient character, start a new one with a plan in mind, that has been tested.

    Or, would it make more sense to go mostly fighter, or something? I do get the feeling that mechanic might be a worthwhile thing to keep in these circumstances, what with the repeater proficiency for when ranged is needed and a doggy too, all without using a feat slot, and I'm sort of stuck with at least the 6 levels of rogue anyway now...
    Already commented on Rogue Mechanics above...
    Stay pure regardless if you decide to stay a mechanic or LR and switch Feats/Point distributions. Heck, maybe with the new enhancement system, Rogue Mechanics may be more than niche builds so placing him on the shelf until later this summer may be a good thing. Who knows what the future will bring with the enhancement overpass. Everything about the enhancement pass says Turbine doesn't want people MC'ing (At least during the Alpha testing). So depending on how Beta testing goes, you may be ahead of the curve staying pure.

    Pets currently suck so dog-dog is a toy (or eye candy). Your range damage is always going to be sub-par so make the best of it also. Not sure if SA + PBS makes your DPS respectable like SA + TWF does for a standard rogue but that is the best you can hope for.

  7. #7
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    OK, I get it, don't bother trying the dragonmarks then...

    Oh well.

    Although I'm sort of confused as to why the doggy isn't useful - I did a couple of quests with that (just the base iron one, another couple of APs and it'd be a bigger dog) and it did pull aggro just fine, so I could PBS/sneak attack with the repeater... (and PBS, SA, light repeater of lacerating, and self-crafted elemental bolts _do_ add up... although bolt consumption is heavy.)

    I wonder if I still should take a level or two of something that'd get me at least TWF for "cheap", beating on skeletons with just one light mace is sort of frustrating. 2 ranger would still get me a favored enemy, TWF, rapid shot and proficiencies... 6 ranger would be a second FE, more feats, some self-buff spells (11 to 12 wis isn't hard to get) and a prestige... and mechanic only goes to 2 currently anyway...

    Fighter 6 for a prestige enh doesn't look all _that_ useful, kensei requires several feats just by itself.

    Hm. Guess I'd better wait for the enhancement changes before taking 7, even. Not like I wouldn't have other toons to play with.


    And I could always just delete this and roll an axesinger or something.

  8. #8
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    There are many fine melee builds using at least 6 levels of rogue.

    7 rogue, 12 fighter, 1 barbarian
    7 rogue, 12 barbarian, 1 fighter
    7 rogue, 12 ranger, 1 fighter
    7 rogue, 12 bard, 1 Fighter
    10 rogue, 8 bard, 2 fighter
    10 rogue, 6 ranger, 4 fighter
    13 rogue, 6 ranger, 1 fighter
    20 rogue

    come to mind. (And if you buy monk, also: )
    7 rogue, 12 fighter, 1 monk
    13 rogue, 4 fighter, 3 monk
    13 rogue, 6 ranger, 1 monk
    and several quarterstaff builds:
    - 7 rogue, 12 monk, 1 fighter
    - 7 rogue, 12 monk, 1 druid
    - 12 rogue, 7 monk, 1 fighter
    - 12 rogue, 6 monk, 2 fighter
    - 12 rogue, 7 monk, 1 druid
    - 13 rogue, 7 monk
    - 13 rogue, 6 monk, 1 fighter
    - 13 rogue, 6 monk, 1 druid

    IMO those combine sweet spots for those classes. (As you observed, 6 fighter isn't among them). Many of them are easier on the lower levels than staying pure (for non-casting classes), since classes have their feats frontloaded and feats improve you the most in early game.
    Keep in mind that TWF isn't very good until you pick up iTWF. I usually use a 2hander up until that point, even if I have the TWF feat earlier.
    In all of these, self-suffiency comes from UMD-ing heal scrolls (wands at lower levels) combined with high healing amplification. I hope you're human
    Last edited by Rull; 05-20-2013 at 07:39 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    To the OP:

    If you want self-sufficiency in a rogue, max out your UMD score, and get a CHR booster. By upper levels you’ll be able to effectively use wands and pots, which will keep your HP up. Alternatively you can get regeneration items and improved regeneration items from quest look. Those are helpful to keep around. Most people shoot for being able to have like a 90%+ confidence when using a Heal scroll. I Find that alternating between a CSW pots and CCW wands is a fairly quick way to top off at the end of a fight. It may be a tad slower, but it works just as well.

    One thing I usually do with my rogue is quaff a Heroism pot, then use that to get a better chance of using a Greater Heroism scroll. After GH kicks in I can cast quite a few buffs and spells with more confidence.

    If you want to be “self-sufficient” there is probably no better build than the Pale Trapper. It does a good chunk of what a Mechanic would do, and because you are a PM, you get spells, buffs, and self-healing. But you end up being more of a wizard than you are a rogue.

    I think the best way for a rogue to be self-sufficient is to act like a rogue. Learn how to bluff-pull so you reduce your encounters to one-on-one situations, use stealth often, avoid fights if you can, and so on. The problem with many people who play rogues – as I see it – is that they think they are fighters who can do traps. They’re not. They are excellent scouts, great trappers, and decent DPS if you utilize SA damage…but you need to be sneaky to get SA damage. So be sneaky. Using stealth is time-consuming, but pretty effective…and fun…

    Likewise, use weapons whose effects will make it more difficult for a mob to fight back – paralyzers, anything that blinds an opponent, and so on. The easiest way to be self-sufficient is to not take damage at all.

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