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Thread: Balance

  1. #21
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    Default problem with the game?

    scaling/leveling

    the game becomes unwieldy at higher levels because 'gimped' characters, ones not maxed out in the speciality, are excluded for being unable to do whatever singular task is required of them at the highest levels; we all understand; you have to have a pure healer, a pure tank, a pure trapper, etc. If not pure then almost pure, like 1 level rogue, 19 wizard, just as an example; and your stats must be just so, your gear just so... etc. same with the other games of the type;

    the problem is LEVELING; it is dumb; has always been dumb, will always be dumb; on PAPER it makes some sense, because your adventure is really as a PLAYER, not as a character; so, it doesn't matter if your character is level 1 or 2 or 18 or 20, you can just pencil in a 1 in front of your 8, if you like, and give yourself some mega dank gear; it is JUST A GAME

    but, when it translates to the computer it becomes immutable; no amount of bribery in the form of pizza,beer,whatever is going to convince the 'dm' to let you roll a level 15 character, though they will probably try to sell it to you these days

    why not just sell levels? or better yet, sell experience? for 10,000 TP you can buy 100,000 exp or should it be 1,000,000? let the market decide, lol

    how can this game transition from a 'leveling' game to a 'non-leveling' game?
    what would be the trade-off?

    how many don't know what I am talking about or think i am a moron?
    lol

    leveling is for noobs (like people who play ddo?)
    TR is for fools
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yes. Somewhat lower than current live values, but much higher than your suggestion.



    Agreed.



    No, they didn't. Or destinies, either.



    Nope.



    Spell pen will obviously be a bigger challenge for a multiclass character.

    A first-life Wizard could conceivably have the following alway-on, all-schools spell pen:

    20 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    5 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    2 twisted destiny ability
    4 racial enhancement
    3 class enhancement
    --
    53 total.

    And they could get higher with buffs, for specific schools, etc..

    No past lives in there.

    And you think mobs should only have 6+quest-CR? I.e., only 31 for base-level-24 quests on Hard?

    OK, Wizards get the Elf advantage, and arcanes get the destiny advantages and gear advantages, and the example is pure classed.

    So how about an 18Clr/2Mnk?

    18 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    3 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 class enhancement
    --
    43 total

    No-fail on a 1 on critters with 44 Spell Resistance, on a splashed first-life non-arcane. And you think 31 is reasonable for end-game Epic Hard?

    I think the 58 Spell Resistance on some Epic Drow is too high. But your 27-31-ish range is way too low.
    You actually support my argument here. Let me show you how. Your first life arcane is OPTIMIZED. Absolute focus. Anything than can improve it is there. And they qualify for EE, as they should. Woot. Great.

    Your divine example however is also optimized, AS A DIVINE, you could give them 2 more and call it so. And they are outta the running on EE..Starting to see?

    Multiclass can't even be addressed and you essentially state that with you example that only splashed 2. Deep splash casters should be AS viable as deep splash melee. And DC in DDO would be the best shot at that because of the issues around damage enhancements that are not seen in pnp. But hey, you like pure class and shallow splash caster and only deep splash melee..why should it be any other way?

    Nor is a 21 quest something I would consider end game. I would consider the 25 EE raid endgame personally. Nor does "end game" mean that much to me, it must ALL be balanced.

    Finally I notice several people adopting the "drow are special" angle. This view comes with the "other creatures are lower" argument... That is all well and good, but...It is the OVERWHELMING bulk of the new content.

    There isn't much point discussing any of this with anyone that doesn't see 2 and 3 feats that only work on Spell Resistance mobs as a SERIOUS investment though.

    How many updates ago was it that a Sorc for instance could reasonably expect to use spells other than elemental damage for instance, or more to the point, took spell pen?
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 05-15-2013 at 07:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    The topic regarding balance today is spell resistance/spell penetration. EH should not require ANY past life spell pen in order to have NORMAL chances of success in defeating spell resistance.

    What is a NORMAL chance you might ask or, more likely, argue?
    NORMAL spell pen in the case of Ehard could reasonably be considered to be 20(pure class)+4 (both spell pen feats)+2 (spell pen item)+1/quest lvl above 20. In other words, Impossible Demands, a level 21 quest on normal or 22 on hard would have non-boss spell resistance of 28.

    Think it should be higher? Let's examine that and see what it looks like shall we? BTW, it is higher, it just shouldn't be.

    First, let me elude to the above framework. Said character had no spell pen oriented past lives. Can you guess why? Because they are supposed to be a benefit, not a requirement. Making them the standard makes them a requirement which is garbage, elitist and exclusionary.


    Second, note they invested reasonably in feats and in gear. Wanna require imp shattermantle? Bad idea, making it baseline is the death of choice..other than perhaps choosing to play another game. Remember that the above toon was pure class? Is that the only one that should be viable for said purpose? I would have to say no, if you answer was yes it seems you want a game that doesn't allow multiclass.

    Shattermantle should be there to fill that gap, don't count it in the calculation. Pure casters won't need it and wouldn't hit with their weapon anyway in most cases, other casters will hit and likewise will need it. Simple right?

    Third, 1 per spell lvl means if you do it at lvl it is at the described threshold, you do it early it is harder, later, easier.

    Finally, some will argue that it is somehow "supposed to be" harder. Let's start this with many things are supposed to be on both sides that are not and end with, put that mess in elite.

    That is all.
    I would have thought that Epic NORMAL would have a NORMAL chance to bypass SR.
    and Epic HARD would present a HARDer challebge to overcome.

    At any rate, my first life Wizard does ok with SR.... in a dungeon of my level (21 right now)
    Not sure that will continue to be true when I hit 25 or not.

    and some monsters (Drow) are suppose to have high SR. That SR is part of what makes Drow challenging.

    I just wish Turbine would design epic dungeons with a wider variety of monstrer in them, so everyone can have a time to shine and everyone can have a time to be challenged.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    You actually support my argument here.
    No, I don't.

    Your little formula claims base-level 24 quests (highest non-raid) on Epic Hard (since you specifically wanted to talk about Epic Hard) should have a Spell Resistance of 31, when any first-life caster can hit Spell Pen in the 40s or even 50s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    AS A DIVINE, you could give them 2 more and call it so. And they are outta the running on EE..Starting to see?
    I see a problem, which is that the devs hate divines, but that's a totally different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Multiclass can't even be addressed and you essentially state that with you example that only splashed 2. Deep splash casters should be AS viable as deep splash melee.
    Viable, sure...but viable at what? Are you trying to say you think deep-splash casters should be as good at being casters as full-blown pure casters? If so, say it now please, so I can not bother wasting any more time trying to have a rational discussion with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Nor is a 21 quest something I would consider end game. I would consider the 25 EE raid endgame personally.
    There's only one level 25 raid, and many level 24 quests. Which is why I used the level 24s as a better example than a level 21 or the single level 25.. As for EE, YOU were the one who specified EH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Nor does "end game" mean that much to me, it must ALL be balanced.
    Balanced is great. No argument there. My argument is that your proposed numbers are ****. They are not balanced, they are auto-win for people who don't even try.

  5. #25
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    It seems to me that if there are ways to make your spell pen higher, there needs to be someplace where that is useful. If you make spell pen so easy to achieve that any first lifer can reach no fail on epic hard, what would be the point of having ways to make it higher? It's a specialized ability. It should require some effort to achieve.

    You say that shattermantle items shouldn't be necessary. What you are promoting though, would make them completely useless and unnecessary. Same could be said of wizard past lives.

    My level 18 wizard, which has 2 levels of rogue, has a spell pen roll of plus 28. So that's 12 above his caster level. No spell pen past lives. He is an elf. I specifically chose elf because of the spell pen enhancements that they get. Should it be necessary? No. Should there be a perk? Yes. You are expecting no fail as your standard. That should take a lot of effort, and concessions in other areas to reach that level. Wizards get extra feats, so taking 2 of them for spell pen isn't a hardship.

    Epic hard should be at least a little challenging. I don't think my level 18 (16/2) wizard should have reasonable success passing spell resistance in epic hard.

    As an aside, we ran enter the kobold and monastery of the scorpion last night on hard. The kobold shamans have much higher spell resistance than their drow counterparts.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    You are expecting no fail as your standard. That should take a lot of effort, and concessions in other areas to reach that level.
    a +1 to a roll on a d20 is +5% ... so you will do nearly insignificantly better; 5% is considered significant in statistics

    you get as many +1's as you can and you should do ok against all but the toughest creatures

    the game is designed so you simply can not succeed in some cases unless you are the uber specced specialist in whatever role you chose

    i suppose a team of gimps should have as much of a chance in any given situation as a team of specialists, but most people would disagree; it is a trade-off; if all monsters are 'average' then it becomes boring; if a certain monster requires a certain build of character, then perhaps it also is boring
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthFirst View Post
    the game is designed so you simply can not succeed in some cases unless you are the uber specced specialist in whatever role you chose
    DDO may not be the most balanced game around but then the OP is not really asking for balance. They're asking for an easy button. My first life Wizard took all three feats, had a +2 Spell Penetration item, the Magister +3 Spell Penetration, and I believe the first enhancement only. She had no issues bypassing Spell Resistance whatsoever on Epic Hard. She wasn't even wearing much of any Epic gear besides the Spyglass from Cove. Outside of that one item her gear was at most level 18 with a couple pieces being level 11.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    DDO may not be the most balanced game around but then the OP is not really asking for balance. They're asking for an easy button. My first life Wizard took all three feats, had a +2 Spell Penetration item, the Magister +3 Spell Penetration, and I believe the first enhancement only. She had no issues bypassing Spell Resistance whatsoever on Epic Hard. She wasn't even wearing much of any Epic gear besides the Spyglass from Cove. Outside of that one item her gear was at most level 18 with a couple pieces being level 11.
    So what was your actual Spell Penetration numerical value?
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    No, I don't.

    Your little formula claims base-level 24 quests (highest non-raid) on Epic Hard (since you specifically wanted to talk about Epic Hard) should have a Spell Resistance of 31, when any first-life caster can hit Spell Pen in the 40s or even 50s.



    I see a problem, which is that the devs hate divines, but that's a totally different issue.



    Viable, sure...but viable at what? Are you trying to say you think deep-splash casters should be as good at being casters as full-blown pure casters? If so, say it now please, so I can not bother wasting any more time trying to have a rational discussion with you.



    There's only one level 25 raid, and many level 24 quests. Which is why I used the level 24s as a better example than a level 21 or the single level 25.. As for EE, YOU were the one who specified EH.



    Balanced is great. No argument there. My argument is that your proposed numbers are ****. They are not balanced, they are auto-win for people who don't even try.
    Let me say this one more time and then waste no more time on it. 3 Feats is a significant effort. In reality it is not three feats though. If you take spell pen it is for a non-damage spell, let us say enchantment. If you assume epic spell pen necessary it is reasonable to assume epic enchantment too. That is 6 feats. Sure, that's casual investment or "very little effort". It's a little thing called opportunity cost and when those 6 feats become required for the task then they aren't a benefit.

    Enough though, those who understand, understand, those who don't won't unless they want to.

    You do not.


    p.s. First life is the only one that should matter and indeed at epic levels this is true for all but the spell pen lives. That is not balance.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    3 Feats is a significant effort.
    Did you even look at the numbers before spouting this stuff?

    A first-life caster can take ZERO spell pen feats, and ZERO spell pen enhancements, and STILL be completely no-fail on the stupidly low numbers you are suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Enough though, those who understand, understand, those who don't won't unless they want to.

    You do not.
    I don't understand where you come up with this stuff, that's for sure.

  11. #31
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I think I know see the disconnect and why you see No-Fail Spell Pen on a First Life pure as being NORMAL Chance.

    You consider that the ability to land a Spell is to the Caster, as the Ability to Land a Blow is to a Melee

    There in lies the problem

    The next issue is attempting to see the balance for a Deep Splash, which part of the concept excepted since Multi-Class was even formed was that you give up something to gain something else. Spell Casters generally gave up Spell Levels and Caster Levels to accomplish their other goal.

    As for the 6 feats mentioned - Needing additional Spell Pen and higher DCs don't always walk hand-in-hand. There are a handful of spells both Arcane and Divine that do have a Spell Resistance Requirement, but do not have a Save. These spells are powerful in that even with a low Spell Pen, a caster can get great effect from these spells against non-SR Foe.

    It is reasonable for me that drow have SR based on 10+CR. I don't think the problem is in that formula, I think the problem is in the Quest CR rating of the Mobs we face.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Ok, so you need a 6 or better, right? Cool, now go there and watch how many 5's you roll. Not even kidding, I get 50 percent. Reason enough to benchmark no fail.
    You're not asking for balance.

    Balance is not achieving "no fail" status with "moderate investment" against the most difficult mobs. When it comes to spell resistance, the forgotten realms epic drow are generally the most difficult (non-boss)mobs. And your talking about Hard difficulty, not even normal. How is this balanced? In the above example, you're playing a first life caster, with no shattermantal item, that has 75% chance of success vs these highly spell resistant mobs. With a single piece of easily obtainable gear (imp.shattermantal) you can add a +6 to your roll. As you currently (per your example) only fail on a 5 or less, adding +6 to that roll puts you in the "no fail" cattagory you wish to achieve - no past lives required.

    Your steadfast refusal to use the options afforded to you are not an indication this game lacks balance, or that EHard drow SR can only be "no fail" breeched through the acquisition of past lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    First life is the only one that should matter...
    This statement is ridiculous. If your opinion is that TRing as a means of expanding your characters power shouldn't exist, fine. That's your opinion. However I can only come this close to agreeing with you: In the most difficult content (EElite), they should not be required, but they should absolutely matter. If a first life character is all that should matter, then that's all there should be. Clearly this is not the case.

    Achieving "no fail" capability against the most difficult opponents is never balanced. It's over powered. If you have no chance to fail against the most difficult mobs, just how trivial will the more moderately SR endowed mobs be?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #33
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    Default tr, lol

    tr is just a scam to get you to keep playing, for the suckahs who fall for that jank
    go outside!
    true neutral poster... note the grey in my 'rep'
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