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    The topic regarding balance today is spell resistance/spell penetration. EH should not require ANY past life spell pen in order to have NORMAL chances of success in defeating spell resistance.

    What is a NORMAL chance you might ask or, more likely, argue?
    NORMAL spell pen in the case of Ehard could reasonably be considered to be 20(pure class)+4 (both spell pen feats)+2 (spell pen item)+1/quest lvl above 20. In other words, Impossible Demands, a level 21 quest on normal or 22 on hard would have non-boss spell resistance of 28.

    Think it should be higher? Let's examine that and see what it looks like shall we? BTW, it is higher, it just shouldn't be.

    First, let me elude to the above framework. Said character had no spell pen oriented past lives. Can you guess why? Because they are supposed to be a benefit, not a requirement. Making them the standard makes them a requirement which is garbage, elitist and exclusionary.


    Second, note they invested reasonably in feats and in gear. Wanna require imp shattermantle? Bad idea, making it baseline is the death of choice..other than perhaps choosing to play another game. Remember that the above toon was pure class? Is that the only one that should be viable for said purpose? I would have to say no, if you answer was yes it seems you want a game that doesn't allow multiclass.

    Shattermantle should be there to fill that gap, don't count it in the calculation. Pure casters won't need it and wouldn't hit with their weapon anyway in most cases, other casters will hit and likewise will need it. Simple right?

    Third, 1 per spell lvl means if you do it at lvl it is at the described threshold, you do it early it is harder, later, easier.

    Finally, some will argue that it is somehow "supposed to be" harder. Let's start this with many things are supposed to be on both sides that are not and end with, put that mess in elite.

    That is all.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    The topic regarding balance today is spell resistance/spell penetration. EH should not require ANY past life spell pen in order to have NORMAL chances of success in defeating spell resistance.

    What is a NORMAL chance you might ask or, more likely, argue?
    NORMAL spell pen in the case of Ehard could reasonably be considered to be 20(pure class)+4 (both spell pen feats)+2 (spell pen item)+1/quest lvl above 20. In other words, Impossible Demands, a level 21 quest on normal or 22 on hard would have non-boss spell resistance of 28.

    Think it should be higher? Let's examine that and see what it looks like shall we? BTW, it is higher, it just shouldn't be.

    First, let me elude to the above framework. Said character had no spell pen oriented past lives. Can you guess why? Because they are supposed to be a benefit, not a requirement. Making them the standard makes them a requirement which is garbage, elitist and exclusionary.


    Second, note they invested reasonably in feats and in gear. Wanna require imp shattermantle? Bad idea, making it baseline is the death of choice..other than perhaps choosing to play another game. Remember that the above toon was pure class? Is that the only one that should be viable for said purpose? I would have to say no, if you answer was yes it seems you want a game that doesn't allow multiclass.

    Shattermantle should be there to fill that gap, don't count it in the calculation. Pure casters won't need it and wouldn't hit with their weapon anyway in most cases, other casters will hit and likewise will need it. Simple right?

    Third, 1 per spell lvl means if you do it at lvl it is at the described threshold, you do it early it is harder, later, easier.

    Finally, some will argue that it is somehow "supposed to be" harder. Let's start this with many things are supposed to be on both sides that are not and end with, put that mess in elite.

    That is all.
    if you spec for spell pen, it is reasonably easy for a first-life wizzy to defeat the SR of most mobs in content EH and below. I did it with the first life of my main wizzy, and was able to dance devils and even some drow on EH content...without the need of EDs.

    That being said, I had to make sacrifices elsewhere. Were my DoTs uber? No. They were OK, but not spectacular. So it really all depends on your focus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    NORMAL spell pen in the case of Ehard could reasonably be considered to be 20(pure class)+4 (both spell pen feats)+2 (spell pen item)+1/quest lvl above 20. In other words, Impossible Demands, a level 21 quest on normal or 22 on hard would have non-boss spell resistance of 28.
    Actually since you roll a D20 to see if you succeed you should add another 10 or 11 (avg 10,5) to the SR and it should be right.In your example of ID like ~38.

    Think its around 50 on EH now IIRC.

    For EE: way higher for sure but thats not the point here.

    Sadly this calculation disregards the normal way SR is based on HD and we all know how inflated those must be to survive players DPS for a sec.

    So yes for a change on EN and EH but i honestly do not see it happen.

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    First, I don't see any problem with different basic mobs having different types of resistances - so drow having higher than average SR is fine. The unfortunate thing is that the last two waves of end-game have been Drow with high SR and giants with really really high saves, and DC casters who need to overcome both SR and DC have been having a hard time of it. I'm betting the pendulum swings again as the level cap goes up and new content becomes end-game.

    Second, I disagree that someone with an "average" commitment to spell pen at level should have an "average" time defeating SR on Epic Hard - if you're going to defeat SR on a caster regularly, commit to it and trade off whatever else it is you were going to get - if you want both, then get spell pen from past lives and keep your "average" commitment to spell pen, that's your luxury for past lives. So let's commit a bit more - at lvl 21 you get an epic feat, that can be Epic Spell Penetration for +4 more. And class enhancement Spell Penetration +3 seems fair to include as well. So now it's 20(20 levels) +8 (three feats) +2 (spell pen item) +3 (enhancement) +1 (some random factor you decided was appropriate for each level of quest above 20)
    So lvl 21 impossible demands, bumped to EHard, that's 35 before your d20; 46 would be reasonable and ~50 seems quite fine for mobs that are "high SR" quality. And this isn't even including epic destinies, which probably ARE fair game since while they are an add on, let's face it, EDs are basically where your power is in epic levels. Getting +3 from ED isn't really a reach; I would say more but I'm not so convinced that increasing max caster level even works properly for SR checks so let's just leave it at +3.

    I get your point, but I believe you're overstating it. Hopefully DC casters will make a comeback with the expansion, but we'll see.

  5. #5

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    I don't see an issue with some mobs having an impossibly high SR. A few here or there perhaps and certainly not a whole dungeon full of mobs, but enough to make you choose a different strategy when facing these specific mobs. I don't believe that all SR should be passable, even by fully twinked toons. I also believe that some saves should also be extremely high to the point of "only fail on a 1". Again, not on every mob, but if there is enough variation in mobs in any given quest then some should be very difficult to hit with DC based effects if you target their strongest save.

    I also think that Turbine is doing a very poor job of varying saves and SR within certain quests. As mentioned above, drow in particular warp entire classes into certain playstyles if you want to overcome the SR. There are enough of them that you change the core of your toon in order to play a certain way. In the same way, the inflated saves on epic GH mobs force you to make so many sacrifices in an attempt to make a DC based character viable that players instead choose to go an alternate route and avoid DC casting altogether. If it was Turbine's intention to make players specialize in DC and use various debuffs in order to achieve their goals, then they seriously underestimated how much effort casters want to put into that, especially when Shiradi is there to use instead. Instead of mobs having high and low saves, they have high and astronomically high saves. This causes DC casters not to adapt, but to just dump the entire concept altogether and move to an easier playstyle. Some people might say Shiradi is overpowered. I say that it only seems that way as it's the most efficient way to play a caster these days because of the extreme effort involved in playing a DC caster by comparison.
    Last edited by redspecter23-A; 05-14-2013 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeronn View Post
    Actually since you roll a D20 to see if you succeed you should add another 10 or 11 (avg 10,5) to the SR and it should be right.In your example of ID like ~38.

    Think its around 50 on EH now IIRC.
    There seems to be some confusion in the thread about what spell pen is currently required in game for drow. (Eveything other than drow requires way less spell pen.)

    Drow have spell resistance of CR+10. EH drow in MotU are CR28, meaning they have 38 spell resistance. EH drow in VON3 are CR30, meaning they have 40 spell resistance. Outside of a tiny handful of drow priestesses, nothing in the game on EH approaches this level of spell pen. If I had to guess, I'd say other "high" spell resistance mobs (mind flayers, orthons, etc...) have spell resistance equal to their CR.

    Spell pen checks do NOT auto-fail on a 1. Meaning you want 37 spell pen for "no-fail" in EH MotU, and 39 spell pen for no-fail VON3.

    Let's check the numbers on a first-life caster who cares about spell pen:

    20 levels
    8 feats
    2 enhancements (I consider the third tier a hardship for purposes of this discussion)
    2 item (magewright's spectacles, for example)
    ---
    32 base @ level 21

    You get 5 more as destiny autogrants, plus another 3 from a destiny ability if you have draconic or magister active.

    Seems just about perfectly balanced for first-lifers to run EH, IMO.
    Last edited by Ellis_Dee; 05-14-2013 at 06:11 PM.

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    I mentioned drow priestesses in passing above; they are generally 3-5 CR higher than trash drow. They also have an annoying habit of deathwarding themselves, plus self-healing by eating mobs halfway across the map, so they're their own issue even ignoring spell pen.

    But back to the first lifer, let's look at EN. In VON3, EN drow are CR22, making their spell resistance 32. That's 31 spell pen for no-fail:

    20 levels
    4 feats (no epic spell pen @ level 20; must wait for 21)
    2 enhancements
    2 item
    ---
    28

    A caster who cares about spell pen starts off needing to roll a 4 to penetrate the spell resistance in EN VON3. (And bargain of blood.) EN is pretty much immediately viable the moment you take 20. Once you grab the epic feat at 21 and a few autogrants, EH becomes viable.

    EE is an entirely different kettle of fish. 54 is the general benchmark for EE drow, which is tough to hit without past lives. I don't see much problem with that, though. It is, after all, EE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis_Dee View Post
    I mentioned drow priestesses in passing above; they are generally 3-5 CR higher than trash drow. They also have an annoying habit of deathwarding themselves, plus self-healing by eating mobs halfway across the map, so they're their own issue even ignoring spell pen.

    But back to the first lifer, let's look at EN. In VON3, EN drow are CR22, making their spell resistance 32. That's 31 spell pen for no-fail:

    20 levels
    4 feats (no epic spell pen @ level 20; must wait for 21)
    2 enhancements
    2 item
    ---
    28

    A caster who cares about spell pen starts off needing to roll a 4 to penetrate the spell resistance in EN VON3. (And bargain of blood.) EN is pretty much immediately viable the moment you take 20. Once you grab the epic feat at 21 and a few autogrants, EH becomes viable.

    EE is an entirely different kettle of fish. 54 is the general benchmark for EE drow, which is tough to hit without past lives. I don't see much problem with that, though. It is, after all, EE.

    Alright, let us just for a second pretend(I don't think it is pretending of course) that one should not have to take Epic spell pen immediately. What lvl do you suppose a lvl 23 "wizard" spell pen would be? Would you still answer a 28 I wonder? Because that is what it is... Our "Epic levels" do not count for that. Theirs do count for spell resist.

    That being said Eveningstar has a DC for Spell Resistance of 33 on Hard..generally. Ok, so you need a 6 or better, right? Cool, now go there and watch how many 5's you roll. Not even kidding, I get 50 percent. Reason enough to benchmark no fail.

    When I commented on the balance the point was to leave enough wiggle room for options. Optimization is well and good but if it is "necessary" it means that your only real choices where at lvl 1. Not my idea of a good time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Play smarter

    High SR mobs? Use non-SR spells.
    High fort save mobs? Hit 'em with a will save.
    This is the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Alright, let us just for a second pretend(I don't think it is pretending of course) that one should not have to take Epic spell pen immediately. What lvl do you suppose a lvl 23 "wizard" spell pen would be? Would you still answer a 28 I wonder? Because that is what it is... Our "Epic levels" do not count for that. Theirs do count for spell resist.

    That being said Eveningstar has a DC for Spell Resistance of 33 on Hard..generally. Ok, so you need a 6 or better, right? Cool, now go there and watch how many 5's you roll. Not even kidding, I get 50 percent. Reason enough to benchmark no fail.

    When I commented on the balance the point was to leave enough wiggle room for options. Optimization is well and good but if it is "necessary" it means that your only real choices where at lvl 1. Not my idea of a good time.
    Unless I'm misunderstanding, you've chosen the highest SR mobs in the game (FR Drow) expect no-fail spell pen on EHard with out maximum investment (ie past lives/shattermantle) and call that balanced? Really? So what would be "balanced" for EElite? Mobs having 6 more SR so that the past lives & shattermantle will bring you back to no fail status?

    "No fail" abilities is never balanced, it's uber.

    Seriously, in the above example you have a 75% chance of success, with not even a shattermantle item, let alone imp.shattermantle or past lives. Just adding (the easily attainable on a first life toon) imp.shattermantle adds 6 to your spell pen roll. That's plenty of "wiggle room." You can drop the spell pen/imp.spell pen feats and up your success rate to 85%. Or keep just the spell pen feat and have 95%, still without "maximum investment" against the highest SR mobs in game on EHard.

    Are you sure balance is what you're seeking?
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 05-15-2013 at 03:38 AM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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    Perhaps try applying this logic: Play smarter, don't build harder.

    High SR mobs? Use non-SR spells.
    High fort save mobs? Hit 'em with a will save.

    If you want to get good results from a "normal" investment, run normal.
    If you run hard, expect it to be hard.
    If your soloing epic content on a first life anything it should not be easy, especially on "hard."
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

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    Just my 2cp

    We as the player base have it in our own power through Race (drow) or even Divine Spell; Spell Resistance and even before we get into Epic abilities.

    A PC Drow has a Natural Spell Resistance of - 30 at Level 20 or 35 at Level 25 (10 + Character Level)

    The Spell Resistance spell cast by a Level 20 Divine - 32 and 37 if cast at Level 25.

    So I would say the opening numbers of the OP are a bit off, but I think they are off because of the Definition of Normal Chance.

    If we take the 1st life example of being able to have a Spell Pen of 28 at level 20, what the opening numbers indicated is that Spell Resistance is a Non-Issue using the OP numbers for a first life Level 20 - in layman's terms no-fail. If that is the case the PL and even Epic Spell penetration and extras from Epic Levels are meaningless. If you already don't fail why would there need to be a need to add more of these benefits?

    Spell Resistance is the AC of Spells it should provide some protection, so what is the reasonable amount of protection it should provide? 2%, 10%, 50%?

    So what is the NORMAL Chance being discussed? 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% or No Fail

    Personally my feeling is Spell Penetration on a Epic Normal CR20 Drow should be 50/50 for a first life Level 20 spell caster with a reasonable investment (20 Levels, 2 enhancement, 2 Feats and a +2 Item) Seems to me we are already better than that.

    Why I feel that way deals more with Lore as one should be well practiced in the Arts of Magic to overcome the natural Magic that flows through the Drow.

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    What's normal is the need to change strategy against different types of enemies. One of drows' specific defenses is their spell resistance. It is normal to have to change to spells that bypass SR when facing them (webs, damaging spells, etc.) or to have to rely on non standard ways to bypass this defense (using Imp. shattermantle weapon, using EDs, having PL feats). It is NOT normal to bypass their specific defense without a significant effort. What you ask is to be able to use the same strategy as against any other monster type: that defeats the specificity of enemies, destroys any need of adaptation ... and would make the game boring imo
    Thelanis: Nassim (F18/Ro2) - Feithlin (W20) - Talienor (F20) - Stoneoak (Ba18/F2) - Hokusai (M20)
    Argonnessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Ba16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Just my 2cp

    We as the player base have it in our own power through Race (drow) or even Divine Spell; Spell Resistance and even before we get into Epic abilities.

    A PC Drow has a Natural Spell Resistance of - 30 at Level 20 or 35 at Level 25 (10 + Character Level)

    The Spell Resistance spell cast by a Level 20 Divine - 32 and 37 if cast at Level 25.

    So I would say the opening numbers of the OP are a bit off, but I think they are off because of the Definition of Normal Chance.

    If we take the 1st life example of being able to have a Spell Pen of 28 at level 20, what the opening numbers indicated is that Spell Resistance is a Non-Issue using the OP numbers for a first life Level 20 - in layman's terms no-fail. If that is the case the PL and even Epic Spell penetration and extras from Epic Levels are meaningless. If you already don't fail why would there need to be a need to add more of these benefits?

    Spell Resistance is the AC of Spells it should provide some protection, so what is the reasonable amount of protection it should provide? 2%, 10%, 50%?

    So what is the NORMAL Chance being discussed? 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% or No Fail

    Personally my feeling is Spell Penetration on a Epic Normal CR20 Drow should be 50/50 for a first life Level 20 spell caster with a reasonable investment (20 Levels, 2 enhancement, 2 Feats and a +2 Item) Seems to me we are already better than that.

    Why I feel that way deals more with Lore as one should be well practiced in the Arts of Magic to overcome the natural Magic that flows through the Drow.
    50/50 for a first life toon that is pure class and invests feats for said sole purpose?

    First, a 20 mage without the feats is QUITE practiced, the game allows multiclass, unless it balances it to irrelevance..currently leaning that way..badly, for casters at any rate..

    Second, 2 feats for that sole purpose, very practiced indeed, specifically in Spell Resistance..

    Third, we get it(SR)? How hard is it for at lvl mobs to bypass?
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 05-15-2013 at 01:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    What is a NORMAL chance you might ask or, more likely, argue?
    NORMAL spell pen in the case of Ehard could reasonably be considered to be 20(pure class)+4 (both spell pen feats)+2 (spell pen item)+1/quest lvl above 20. In other words, Impossible Demands, a level 21 quest on normal or 22 on hard would have non-boss spell resistance of 28.

    Think it should be higher?
    Yes. Somewhat lower than current live values, but much higher than your suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    First, let me elude to the above framework. Said character had no spell pen oriented past lives. Can you guess why? Because they are supposed to be a benefit, not a requirement. Making them the standard makes them a requirement which is garbage, elitist and exclusionary.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Second, note they invested reasonably in feats and in gear.
    No, they didn't. Or destinies, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Wanna require imp shattermantle?
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Remember that the above toon was pure class? Is that the only one that should be viable for said purpose? I would have to say no, if you answer was yes it seems you want a game that doesn't allow multiclass.
    Spell pen will obviously be a bigger challenge for a multiclass character.

    A first-life Wizard could conceivably have the following alway-on, all-schools spell pen:

    20 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    5 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    2 twisted destiny ability
    4 racial enhancement
    3 class enhancement
    --
    53 total.

    And they could get higher with buffs, for specific schools, etc..

    No past lives in there.

    And you think mobs should only have 6+quest-CR? I.e., only 31 for base-level-24 quests on Hard?

    OK, Wizards get the Elf advantage, and arcanes get the destiny advantages and gear advantages, and the example is pure classed.

    So how about an 18Clr/2Mnk?

    18 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    3 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 class enhancement
    --
    43 total

    No-fail on a 1 on critters with 44 Spell Resistance, on a splashed first-life non-arcane. And you think 31 is reasonable for end-game Epic Hard?

    I think the 58 Spell Resistance on some Epic Drow is too high. But your 27-31-ish range is way too low.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 05-15-2013 at 04:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yes. Somewhat lower than current live values, but much higher than your suggestion.



    Agreed.



    No, they didn't. Or destinies, either.



    Nope.



    Spell pen will obviously be a bigger challenge for a multiclass character.

    A first-life Wizard could conceivably have the following alway-on, all-schools spell pen:

    20 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    5 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    2 twisted destiny ability
    4 racial enhancement
    3 class enhancement
    --
    53 total.

    And they could get higher with buffs, for specific schools, etc..

    No past lives in there.

    And you think mobs should only have 6+quest-CR? I.e., only 31 for base-level-24 quests on Hard?

    OK, Wizards get the Elf advantage, and arcanes get the destiny advantages and gear advantages, and the example is pure classed.

    So how about an 18Clr/2Mnk?

    18 heroic caster levels
    8 feats
    3 gear
    5 destiny caster levels
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 twisted destiny ability
    3 class enhancement
    --
    43 total

    No-fail on a 1 on critters with 44 Spell Resistance, on a splashed first-life non-arcane. And you think 31 is reasonable for end-game Epic Hard?

    I think the 58 Spell Resistance on some Epic Drow is too high. But your 27-31-ish range is way too low.
    You actually support my argument here. Let me show you how. Your first life arcane is OPTIMIZED. Absolute focus. Anything than can improve it is there. And they qualify for EE, as they should. Woot. Great.

    Your divine example however is also optimized, AS A DIVINE, you could give them 2 more and call it so. And they are outta the running on EE..Starting to see?

    Multiclass can't even be addressed and you essentially state that with you example that only splashed 2. Deep splash casters should be AS viable as deep splash melee. And DC in DDO would be the best shot at that because of the issues around damage enhancements that are not seen in pnp. But hey, you like pure class and shallow splash caster and only deep splash melee..why should it be any other way?

    Nor is a 21 quest something I would consider end game. I would consider the 25 EE raid endgame personally. Nor does "end game" mean that much to me, it must ALL be balanced.

    Finally I notice several people adopting the "drow are special" angle. This view comes with the "other creatures are lower" argument... That is all well and good, but...It is the OVERWHELMING bulk of the new content.

    There isn't much point discussing any of this with anyone that doesn't see 2 and 3 feats that only work on Spell Resistance mobs as a SERIOUS investment though.

    How many updates ago was it that a Sorc for instance could reasonably expect to use spells other than elemental damage for instance, or more to the point, took spell pen?
    Last edited by Disgruntled175; 05-15-2013 at 07:45 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    You actually support my argument here.
    No, I don't.

    Your little formula claims base-level 24 quests (highest non-raid) on Epic Hard (since you specifically wanted to talk about Epic Hard) should have a Spell Resistance of 31, when any first-life caster can hit Spell Pen in the 40s or even 50s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    AS A DIVINE, you could give them 2 more and call it so. And they are outta the running on EE..Starting to see?
    I see a problem, which is that the devs hate divines, but that's a totally different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Multiclass can't even be addressed and you essentially state that with you example that only splashed 2. Deep splash casters should be AS viable as deep splash melee.
    Viable, sure...but viable at what? Are you trying to say you think deep-splash casters should be as good at being casters as full-blown pure casters? If so, say it now please, so I can not bother wasting any more time trying to have a rational discussion with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Nor is a 21 quest something I would consider end game. I would consider the 25 EE raid endgame personally.
    There's only one level 25 raid, and many level 24 quests. Which is why I used the level 24s as a better example than a level 21 or the single level 25.. As for EE, YOU were the one who specified EH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Nor does "end game" mean that much to me, it must ALL be balanced.
    Balanced is great. No argument there. My argument is that your proposed numbers are ****. They are not balanced, they are auto-win for people who don't even try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    No, I don't.

    Your little formula claims base-level 24 quests (highest non-raid) on Epic Hard (since you specifically wanted to talk about Epic Hard) should have a Spell Resistance of 31, when any first-life caster can hit Spell Pen in the 40s or even 50s.



    I see a problem, which is that the devs hate divines, but that's a totally different issue.



    Viable, sure...but viable at what? Are you trying to say you think deep-splash casters should be as good at being casters as full-blown pure casters? If so, say it now please, so I can not bother wasting any more time trying to have a rational discussion with you.



    There's only one level 25 raid, and many level 24 quests. Which is why I used the level 24s as a better example than a level 21 or the single level 25.. As for EE, YOU were the one who specified EH.



    Balanced is great. No argument there. My argument is that your proposed numbers are ****. They are not balanced, they are auto-win for people who don't even try.
    Let me say this one more time and then waste no more time on it. 3 Feats is a significant effort. In reality it is not three feats though. If you take spell pen it is for a non-damage spell, let us say enchantment. If you assume epic spell pen necessary it is reasonable to assume epic enchantment too. That is 6 feats. Sure, that's casual investment or "very little effort". It's a little thing called opportunity cost and when those 6 feats become required for the task then they aren't a benefit.

    Enough though, those who understand, understand, those who don't won't unless they want to.

    You do not.


    p.s. First life is the only one that should matter and indeed at epic levels this is true for all but the spell pen lives. That is not balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    3 Feats is a significant effort.
    Did you even look at the numbers before spouting this stuff?

    A first-life caster can take ZERO spell pen feats, and ZERO spell pen enhancements, and STILL be completely no-fail on the stupidly low numbers you are suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Enough though, those who understand, understand, those who don't won't unless they want to.

    You do not.
    I don't understand where you come up with this stuff, that's for sure.

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    I think I know see the disconnect and why you see No-Fail Spell Pen on a First Life pure as being NORMAL Chance.

    You consider that the ability to land a Spell is to the Caster, as the Ability to Land a Blow is to a Melee

    There in lies the problem

    The next issue is attempting to see the balance for a Deep Splash, which part of the concept excepted since Multi-Class was even formed was that you give up something to gain something else. Spell Casters generally gave up Spell Levels and Caster Levels to accomplish their other goal.

    As for the 6 feats mentioned - Needing additional Spell Pen and higher DCs don't always walk hand-in-hand. There are a handful of spells both Arcane and Divine that do have a Spell Resistance Requirement, but do not have a Save. These spells are powerful in that even with a low Spell Pen, a caster can get great effect from these spells against non-SR Foe.

    It is reasonable for me that drow have SR based on 10+CR. I don't think the problem is in that formula, I think the problem is in the Quest CR rating of the Mobs we face.

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