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  1. #1
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    Default When does EE become easy?

    Hello all

    I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

    It makes me wonder why I find them tough


    I run my Cleric in EEs and find them to be most challenging - I have to be 100% on the ball and concentrating heavily on the bars watching out for those hefty damage spikes, positioning myself correctly to get the best use from aura/ bursts and often keeping renewal going on multiple recpients.

    For me its super intense and I love it.


    I cant see that I'll ever find it easy


    EE still has that "special quality" about it that makes it a thrill to run.


    Is it perhaps a Class thing? ie.. is it essier to run a Fighter or Barb in EE than a Cleric?
    Or along similar lines - is it a class responsibility issue ie Cleric / FvS feels they carry responsibilty for sucess or wipe?
    Is it just down to player skill or familiarity of constantly running EEs

    By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?


    I just get the feeling that if im not finding it easy then I must be doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Mantrax; 05-14-2013 at 06:01 AM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantrax View Post
    Hello all

    I read many posts on the forum that say EE is too easy, not challenging etc.

    It makes me wonder why I find them tough


    I run my Cleric in EEs and find them to be most challenging - I have to be 100% on the ball and concentrating heavily on the bars watching out for those hefty damage spikes, positioning myself correctly to get the best use from aura/ bursts and often keeping renewal going on multiple recpients.

    For me its super intense and I love it.


    I cant see that I'll ever find it easy


    EE still has that "special quality" about it that makes it a thrill to run.


    Is it perhaps a Class thing? ie.. is it essier to run a Fighter or Barb in EE than a Cleric?
    Or along similar lines - is it a class responsibility issue ie Cleric / FvS feels they carry responsibilty for sucess or wipe?
    Is it just down to player skill or familiarity of constantly running EEs

    By finding EE challenging am I in the minority or is it the norm?


    I just get the feeling that if im not finding it easy then I must be doing it wrong.
    I very rarely find EE to be particularly easy though some are much easier than others. Reclaiming the Rift vs something like House of Rusted Blades, a comparison like that is like a Shotgun compared to those little snap pop firewords.

    As for when it becomes easy? The people that say it is are either A: Max geared out (or close) and running with others who are on the same level, B: Heavily geared out on something with a lot of ranged ability/self healing and are just killing enemies from a distance which makes them think it's easy since they aren't getting hit a lot, or C: Super Extremely skilled players (thinking Durnak, Shataan, etc etc.) that are going to just steamroll content regardless of what Turbine does.

    I have to agree though, for how complex it is Epic Elite can be extremely fun. If you're one of the 3 groups above though, yes you will steamroll content and yes you will get bored of it. Can't really help ya then, you've "won DDO" and probably should either tr, or start removing things that make your build powerful (evasion, ranged capabilities, Shiradi for the people who can't seem to do anything outside of it) and then try questing.

    I personally wouldn't mind seeing some of the Juggernauts take 2 fighter instead of monk, just to add a bit more challenge to their characters. Lack of evasion might make them even more fun and make content more challenging, who knows. Actually for that matter I wouldn't mind watching some of the Juggs roll up as a pure fighter and do what Durnak does. Would be interesting to watch.

  3. #3
    Community Member backandforth's Avatar
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    There is a difference from one EE quest to the other.They are not all the same.

    There is a difference from one party or class to the other. A party of 6 warforged shiradi sorcerers may make EE look easier than heroic casual.

    Having to keep alive more than one barbarian can be considered overpowering at times.

    Epic elite quests are challenging and it is how they should be.

    I think EE will become easier for you when you will have the items , the build or the experience needed to solo the quest yourself.

    Then you can create a BYOH party with more people there to help you speed the process.

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    It becomes easy when nobody is stupid.

  5. #5
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I don't find them "easy" ... although some are almost easy.

    But I do not find them particulary difficult either.

    I do find them... thrilling. Tough... a challenge... have to keep on your toes...etc.

    Seen wipes. Seen even more near wipes.

    Use a ton of resources... often.

    For my main, lvl 25 guy... they are the right difficulty. I really enjoy them.

    For my level 21 guys... they are probably too much to handle. (depends on which ones though)
    Not that I wouldn't try! lol


    But to better answer your question, they become easy when you are powerful enough to do them with ease.
    Knowlege is a major factor as well... probably even more important to completion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  6. #6
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    Hit Points

    EE's vary widely, a pug being healed by a hireling can handle a lot of the lower level EEs if they are somewhat careful. GH EE mobs hit stupid hard. If you've only got a normal to heavy investment into HP, trash mobs in EE GH will call you a gimp failnoob and put you down in 2 swings. If you've got an insane to ludicrous investment in HP, then you're just a bit squishy. On the other hand, if you've invested more into HP than anyone with half a brain would ever think viable, such as my 900 HP sorc who can occasionally hit 1200 after some tea, then you have a level of HP equivalent to 100 HP in the harbor. You will constantly be on the verge of death, but you should be able to keep up with the damage provided you pay constant attention, and even sometimes live through CC.

    Damage Per Second

    Staying alive is only a small part of the battle, you've got to make the bad guys dead to win. The mobs in EE GH have a ton health, DDO is only easy when you can kill the bad guys before they have a chance to hurt you. Go in that room with the 4 kobold shaman in butchers with a sword and board fighter wielding a +1 long sword on elite with no ship buffs and coming out alive won't be 'easy'. Go in there with a sorc insta killing them with niac's cold rays or a high DPS melee cleaving away and they don't seem any different than any other mob in there.

    Decent damage in EE GH is 2k+ DPS. If you're swinging away doing 50-100 a pop and occasionally critting for ~1000... that's just not going to cut it. You want to be doing 500-1000 with your average damage and critting for 2-3k+, and critting at regular intervals as well. This isn't great DPS either, but I'd say it's pretty close to the dividing line between breaking even and getting ahead.

    Blue Bar Efficiency

    Whether you're a jugger who only uses mana for buffs and heals or a caster who lives and breaths spell points, the length of your blue bar is directly proportional to the length of your stay in the quest. You need to have some sort of exploitative system, such a shiradi force spell spamming, to stretch your blue bar or you just aren't going to make it very far. Unless you just want to buff the melee and let them carry you.

    Cheap Shots

    A big part of the 'easy' factor of EE GH to most people is that they aren't going toe to toe with the mobs. There are safe spots all over the place where you can dish it out without having to take it. Additionally, there are many places where you can bug out a seemingly impossible boss and make them as easy to deal with as a shroud portal.

    Overwhelming Force

    Let's say the average DDO player is a power factor of 100. New players would be around 20-50, and we've all seen some single digits here and there. Experienced vets on strong, geared builds might be up to about 200, and a few can situationally go much higher.

    You're average party is mostly 100's with a few lows and highs sprinkled in, but for the most part the power factor of your average group is 600. One person dies and you're down to 500, if someone tries to rez the down player you'll drop clear down to 400. Now consider a party of all strong players... 200+ * 6 is a power factor of over 1200! Now consider that at least one of them is situationally very strong in almost every situation, so the group is easily 1500 on average.

    Of course group power factor is completely contrived, but its only purpose was to demonstrate that a party of 6 strong players is equivalent to a a raid party of average players. I think if raid groups could go in EE GH quests they'd find it "easy" as well.

  7. #7
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post

    Use a ton of resources... often.
    Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

    EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

    This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.

  8. #8
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Aren't you the same guy who in another thread stated he has no issue with taking people leveling terrible destinies in EE and posted some really arrogant gibberish about it?

    EE should use ZERO resource and will required ZERO resources if all the players are good and actually belong in EE. If you're using "tons of resources . . . often" then you clearly do not belong in EE.

    This is why SP pots are the most terrible thing in DDO, they let people who clearly lack the skill beat content they aren't ready for and give them a false sense of competence.
    That's an interesting point of view you have there...

    ... that the hardest difficulty setting in the game should be easy to complete and use zero resources... unless you are gimped and have no business doing the most difficult settings.



    (oh, and I said nothing about using SP pots)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    That's an interesting point of view you have there...

    ... that the hardest difficulty setting in the game should be easy to complete and use zero resources... unless you are gimped and have no business doing the most difficult settings.



    (oh, and I said nothing about using SP pots)
    Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

    My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.

  10. #10
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

    My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.
    My characters bring their own healing... and heal or rez anyone in the group who needs help.


    and from what you have written your "skill" is taking only max ED, powerful players into quests with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  11. #11
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    My characters bring their own healing... and heal or rez anyone in the group who needs help.
    As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    and from what you have written your "skill" is taking only max ED, powerful players into quests with you.
    I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

    Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

    If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

    When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.

  12. #12
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    It's like all things, it gets easier with practice and better gear. And with solid groups of people who are communicative and you gel with. Some skills make the runs easier, like good crowd control, but I've been through beat down fests with none and the groups came down victorious.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

    If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

    When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.
    And there it is. You think everyone runs it for the same reason, or should run it for the same reason. Pretty big xp for first time EE completion says Turbine is trying to encourage (or is encouraging without realizing it) people to actually complete this for xp. No surprise that some people feel there is no reason not to try, both because Turbine encourages it with the xp model and because for the rest of the game elite is the default setting these days.
    Addicted to DDO since 2006
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    I made EE easy for myself by learning to solo EEs. When I started, they seemed quite difficult to me...now, after having done various soloing accomplishments (such as hitting 375 PDK favor from soloing on my sorc), it feels really easy.

    There are ways in which it'll always be difficult: DC-casting is out of whack in EE due to enemy saves, and relying on it will make EE seem difficult. Likewise, healing a group of unprepared people will make it seem very difficult. By comparison, getting a self-sufficient, decently-geared-and-built character, and running with 5 other EE-capable people will make everything seem fairly easy.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .



    I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

    Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

    If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

    When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.
    EEs are your loot runs....

    Just what do you use that loot for?

    Just what quests do you actually do for fun? For a challenge?

    Why do you need loot when everythig is easy?

    Why when everything is easy, are you worried about some gimp in your groups?


    These are things I will never understand.


    ...and you will never understand people like like me....
    sometimes I don't know why I bother posting....

    But I keep hoping that someone will be motivated by what I write.

    maybe at least the new guys can see that not all vets are the same....
    that some of us actually enjoy being inside dungeons.
    that some play for fun, and not xp/minute or grinding for loot.

    that some of us help people.
    enjoy a challenge...

    don't quit because the quest got tough.....

    don't tell the new guy his gimp toon isn't welcome....

    etc.






    Back on topic....
    no this game is not that hard.
    some quests are harder than others...
    some specific fights are real tough....

    but in just about every quest I have run to get my 4358 favor.... no special build, HP, gear... or EDs... (or even healers) were needed.

    experience means more than all of that stuff.... mostly how much agro you pull at one time.

    Second to agro control may be simply moving during combat.
    The most dangerous monster attacks are those that prevent you from moving.
    Because of that, saving throws are probably the most important stat on your character. (notice I did not say HP)

    another real important part of being able to handle tough fights is self healing.
    although it also helps to heal your friends, cause you are stronger with them alive and participating.

    How to survive in difficult content is really the same at lvl 1 as it is at lvl 25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #16
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    It becomes easy after you run it enough to know what to expect, run it with a group of people who also know it(or know how to fit into what's happening) and when you have all the gear that keeps you from dying, boosts all your abilities/skill/ego, And when Turbine turns down the actual difficulty so noobs can get thru it.

    Other than that, it's HOLY MACKEREL! IT'S A DEATH FEST! (refers to the old forum post saying EE was over the top hard)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It becomes easy when nobody is stupid.

    To the OP. What E-peen is really trying to say is that with more practice, one learns the ins and outs(tactics) to do each particular quest or raid on EE.

    Some are fast learners, some have great twitch skills, some take a little longer to learn, but practice, trying different ED setups, gear, and running with knowledgeable players will get you closer to having the EE quests seem easier and easier. Don't be afraid to keep trying. Even if you have to apologize occasionally for slowing the group down, keep at it.

    Mastering EH is always helpful but in a lot of cases, it's odd but true that EE tactics could be totally different.

    Good luck! (Stay away from e-peens when possible, luckily there are some really cool and helpful players in DDO that have enough self-esteem to not have to puff themselves up on the forums).

  18. #18
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    Lots of ways to make it easy. For groups, just some level of teamwork does the trick.

    Like:
    - Bring a bard - they can CC all the trash without issue (as long as your group can focus fire).

    - 6 PMs can easily instant death their way through. If necessary, scroll enervate, cast energy drain, then FoD. each PM still gets 20 - 30 kills per shrine. I can't think of any quest that requires more then ~150 kills to a shrine. EE Tor is only about 60 to the first shrine, for example. So, even 3 PMs should make it without issue. And that is being fairly inefficient, using what is being hailed as the horridly underpowered DC casting.

    - Kite on a nuker / archer. Giants are exceptionally easy to kite, because they like to stop and use slow attacks a lot. No need for safe spots, but that is an option too.

    - Bring defense. Cast / Scroll Displacement, have ghostly, maybe some dodge, maybe some PRR, maybe some DR. You can knock a good 60% - 80% off of what the mobs deal.

    The list goes on. Really, any 6 even moderate builds can steamroll it if they work together well. No need for a FotM build. Sure, those are typically a bit faster, but hardly necessary.

    Personally, I guess I'd say I first really noticed thinking it was easy when I found myself pulling multiple EE groups (not mobs, but running past 3 - 4 guys in a group to drag them to the next one) to speed it up even when solo.

  19. #19
    Community Member TheNewForumSux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    start removing things that make your build powerful (evasion, ranged capabilities, Shiradi for the people who can't seem to do anything outside of it) and then try questing.
    I laughed when I read this. I have a Shiradi Sorc and I do steamroll EE.

    So I decided to roll up the dreaded gimpmaster battlecleric. I tr'd my barb into an 18/2 FvS/Ftr and being in LD destiny very easily healed EE reclaiming the rift. MOST of the quests on EE is easy once you know how. Pretty much all of the EE quests have an optimal way, but strangely this is not known to most.

  20. #20
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Resources = what then? Mountain Dew and nachos?

    My point of view is people who still have trouble with the game shouldn't condescend on those who do not. Should/shouldn't whatever . . . it is fact that good players with good toons beat EEs every day without requiring "resources" other than their own skill.
    Well not all are as good as you at a game and have the same right as you to post what they think right or wrong as may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    As do mine. Rez at least, if you can't keep yourself alive you don't belong in EE. Exceptions happen of course, people get stunned, etc . . .



    I absolutely do not discriminate at all when I put up an LFM because it's damned entertaining watching the weak bite off more than they can chew.

    Here the thing . . . EE is a loot run. That's just what it is, the reason to run EE is to pull EE loot.

    If your bar is set really low at say "completion" then 6 people off-destiny can beat anything. We done this intentionally.

    When running for loot you're looking for a "fast completion" and the more off-destiny chimps you bring the longer it will take. If you want a quest to take all night go for it, in your own groups. Pike too often in others and don't be surprised if you wind up in other people's no-fly list.
    I just quoted a couple of your posts in this one thread and you have a elitist attitude, where if not as good as me then go away. I am better at a video game than you so your OP is worthless and you suck so go away.

    Maybe sit back and read what others say. A lot have troubles in EE and in your OP don't belong in there.

    If they complete and have fun or even fail and have fun that is all that matters it is a game. (not a job)

    You seem to think that everyone should do as you do not everyone is the same get over it.

    EE can be easy with a good group of players. They can be difficult also when don't have the right group and teaching people how to run them. Knowledge is key in this game.

    Remember this is the forums and as Turbine says only 5% of people read and most are like this guy elitist.
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