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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrir_Mule_S View Post
    And as some of you gently pointed out, if anything the failure was on my part. Not so much for not explaining things the right way but for expecting a completion. If anything I should not expect that to happen, I guess.
    Nah, I'd totally expect a completion if I was in the raid, but I wouldn't expect to be able to just go in and do my own thing without any teamwork at all and complete. Sure, 75% of the time that's the way it works out, but I certainly don't expect everyone who plays the game to have everything down on farm mode.

    I don't mind people blowing off steam, but I do wish those same people who seem to get so upset by other people's actions would at least try to acknowledge their own responsibility for the episode.

    What is it with people these days not picking up the key when the rust monster boss dies?

    Were you there when the boss died?

    Yeah, but I'm not the one who didn't pick it up.

    ???

    Everybody else should have picked it up, but it's not my responsibility.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Where's the apprehension?
    I was talking about leadership being and important factor in VoN and said something along the lines of, 4 lines of text can the difference between success and failure.

    To which you replied something along the lines of, OMG... mE LOL SO mUch BiG timE at jOo!! To which I translated, "Your statement couldn't be more incorrect. I find it so absurd it's hilarious."

    Therefore, if you are so dramatically opposed to my supposition that leadership in VoN can make all the difference in the world, then you must find the raid tremendously difficult.

    I've taken ragtag pug groups full of noobs through VoN and handed Velah a right sound throttling. People like you seem to think that anytime someone dies they did on on purpose as a form of griefing. Nobody wants to die. Nobody is following you around and joining your parties just so they can grab the voice and jump in the lava. People are they because they want to complete, and I've never seen a situation where someone willingly went against the instructions of the raid leader. I have however seen plenty of raid leaders say something along the lines of go in there and kill stuff dead, and when things went south they wondered quite loudly over voice chat why people didn't follow their directions.

  3. #43
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Because all LFMs for the last four years have said "know it" instead of anyone taking the time to teach new players.

    How many threads were there from when this game went F2P up to now saying "I don't log onto this game to teach newbs, I log on to have fun myself. They should learn the hard way, I did"... this is the natural progression from that.

    And I'll accept a lot of blame, I was one of those arguing that in the long run this would end up with a watered down populace where every PUG is a crapshoot and the "veterans" would be mostly at fault, but a lot of times I would rather go out of my way to solo or take a hireling than try to teach a lot of these newer peeps. For every 1 that wants to learn and listens you get a bunch that think their **** don't stink and they know it all, they get coddled and gently brought along and when the people who do that aren't available they run with the real populace and can't function; as a coping mechanism rather than accept the blame and learn they assume everyone but the Hjealbot that they usually run with are gimps and refuse to keep them alive.

    Case in point, over my last few lives I have taken to soloing more and more things, not because I WANT to or because I think I'm awesome (even though I do, in fact, think I am awesome), but because 10 times out of 10 unless I HAVE to have someone else there (that quest in Necro I, Last Stand, the one where you protect Coyle, etc..) it's easier even if it takes longer to just do it myself. Then I don't have to listen to whining because I'm going too fast, or too slow, or player X demanding X loot, or X hates Y from Z guild... I'm on life number 11 and it's a life I just want to get through so I can move on to one I think I'll enjoy. I don't have time to deal with the BS. I'm assuming it's the same for a lot of veterans or those who would teach out there.

    I think what happened is a lot of First gen players genuinely TRIED to teach (there are a few who are d-bags before and are d-bags now and will always be d-bags, but the majority of those who remember 16 and below level caps are pretty cool) but kept getting rebuffed for their efforts or not listened to and the noobish gameplay has continued completely unabated for so long that they gave up. While I was on the side saying they should go that extra mile to teach, I no longer am. As a new player, if YOU want to learn, then YOU need to ask questions. YOU need to admit you don't know content. The onus for learning how to play something is on YOU. It's not my job to KNOW what you do or don't know about a given quest, and since so often any advice is seen as insulting I'm not going to give advice unless it's asked for.

    Last paragraph, I promise: when I started (first wave of F2Pers), TRs and the like would not walk across the street to spit on me if I was on fire. IF I got into groups, as soon as it was known I was one of those "Froobs" I was pretty much ignored. Instead of going "Woe is me" and whining about it all the time, I learned by paying attention to my surroundings and doing what I could to help. The fact that when that happens now I am shocked just goes further to point to the sad state of affairs that is the now normal DDO PUG.
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  4. #44
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    Because 8/12 people walk in and go afk in central room figuring everyone else will get the work done, and they'll just come back in 30 minutes and go into the raid.

  5. #45
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    I was talking about leadership being and important factor in VoN and said something along the lines of, 4 lines of text can the difference between success and failure.
    And I still contend that it doesn't matter weather it's 4 lines or 40; giving directions is only effective if people are following them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    To which you replied something along the lines of, OMG... mE LOL SO mUch BiG timE at jOo!!
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    Therefore, if you are so dramatically opposed to my supposition that leadership in VoN can make all the difference in the world, then you must find the raid tremendously difficult...People like you seem to think that anytime someone dies they did on on purpose as a form of griefing. Nobody wants to die. Nobody is following you around and joining your parties just so they can grab the voice and jump in the lava. People are they because they want to complete, and I've never seen a situation where someone willingly went against the instructions of the raid leader. I have however seen plenty of raid leaders say something along the lines of go in there and kill stuff dead, and when things went south they wondered quite loudly over voice chat why people didn't follow their directions.
    Dude, I think your babble fish is broken, I really don't know how else you get ^this^ from:
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I've been in many a Raid where, be it VoN, Shroud, Abbot... It's all the same. While decent leadership is important, especially when there's new-to-quest players in the group; proper instructions aren't worth a rats' behind if people aren't listening to them. Worse yet, in my experience it's more often the "vets" who "know what to do" that don't pay attention & screw up more than the first timers, followed by "lol oops, my bad :P" as they kill the cat early, forget to organize inventory to make finding the boulders fast & easy, or as in VoN - forget to put on feather fall as they jump to a tower and promptly die in the lava... with the voice.

    No amount of proper instructions ensures people will follow them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    I've taken ragtag pug groups full of noobs through VoN and handed Velah a right sound throttling.
    Oh well silly me, clearly someone who has achieved your level of awesome must be infallibly correct in all things both real and assumed...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    And I still contend that it doesn't matter weather it's 4 lines or 40; giving directions is only effective if people are following them.

    Huh?

    Dude, I think your babble fish is broken, I really don't know how else you get ^this^ from:


    Oh well silly me, clearly someone who has achieved your level of awesome must be infallibly correct in all things both real and assumed...
    Won't happen often but Perm is correct. Many do not follow directions and many pike. More lately than ever before.

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Now I wish all those threads back in 2008-2011 were around where I posted that this is exactly what will happen when no one wants to teach, but they want everyone to just know whats up.

    WHen the atmosphere of "know it or dont join" becomes the norm, people do join, they just try to blend in with those who know, all the while not telling anyone its their first time or theyre rusty etc. This is easy to do when everyone but the one newbie knows whats going on. What happens over the years is there are less vets leading and more newbies trying to fit in. Then that VON group fails 4x in a row due to everyone who shows up thinking they are the only one not in the know while attempting to blend in, but in reality 8 or 9 of the people in the raid dont know what to do. When they are all following someone else who doesnt know squat either, it becomes pretty obvious.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #48
    Community Member ImanCarrot's Avatar
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    I don't get it either. But it's there and without doing it that way it's a failure and not just on base three.
    Ah, now there you got my sympathies lol. We ran a Von 5 + 6 and despite saying things have to be killed at the same time at the end numerous times they still got killed. We voiced it and typed it in case folk's speakers/ headphones were off. We used basic English in case they were non English speaking. And still they died. Eventually I came to the conclusion that it was someone "having a joke" and refused to get annoyed to give them the satisfaction.

    Very frustrating.


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  9. #49
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now I wish all those threads back in 2008-2011 were around where I posted that this is exactly what will happen when no one wants to teach, but they want everyone to just know whats up.

    WHen the atmosphere of "know it or dont join" becomes the norm, people do join, they just try to blend in with those who know, all the while not telling anyone its their first time or theyre rusty etc. This is easy to do when everyone but the one newbie knows whats going on. What happens over the years is there are less vets leading and more newbies trying to fit in. Then that VON group fails 4x in a row due to everyone who shows up thinking they are the only one not in the know while attempting to blend in, but in reality 8 or 9 of the people in the raid dont know what to do. When they are all following someone else who doesnt know squat either, it becomes pretty obvious.
    On the surface, I would agree with your assessment.

    However, when I started playing this game I was forced to learn the quests due to vets not wanting to run with noobs. It really wasn't that hard to put up my own lfm's, read the wiki and forums, etc. I made a lot of friends along the way, and some enemies as well. In the end, I learned the in's and out's of most if not all of the quests in the game.

    The difference I see when pugging nowadays is huge. People don't read lfm's. They don't ask questions. They are highly defensive in general. But really, what I notice the most is that they are lazy. There is a prevailing attitude of people expecting more experienced players to do the quests for them. Very little newbie runs up these days on my server. And very few joiners in teaching runs.

    Von5/6 is my favorite raid to run in the game. I used to make it a point to put up at least 3 teaching runs a life when tr'ing my toons. I no longer bother doing that due to afk pikers- and fatigue derived from fishing soulstones out of lava or far corners of the map. While this doesn't curb my enthusiasm regarding explaining how the run works and why - it does stop me from wasting an hour+ of my time herding cats and sorting through afk pikers.

    For those of us who had to learn by doing, witnessing what has become accepted as normal raid behavior is a big turn off to accepting newer players into these runs. The end result being something very much like you describe in the post I've quoted...
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  10. #50

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    I have run VON 5+6 on regular / epic numerous times and seen some patterns to why some PUG's fail.

    Most of the time the group fails on VON 6 pillars due to lack of coordination. VON 5 rarely fails even though the traps to the north can be a pain unless you have an experienced trapper. Killing Velah in VON6 is not that hard unless you do Epic Elite.

    First mistake in VON6 is failing to designate 3 strike teams for each of the bases. A good leader analyzes the people attending and writes down who should go where so you get a balanced group at each base.

    Second mistake is that not all people understand where to go. Sometimes the leader says base 1: aaa, bbb, ccc, ddd: base 2: eee, ffff, ggg, hhh. Rest to base 3. One problem is that non Americans are not familiar with baseball and how you count the different base numbers (clockwise or counter clockwise). So it could be better to say. Left (ice): aaa, bbb, ccc. Back (electric): ddd, eee...., Right (fire): ggg, hhh..... I can't count the number of times I've seen people go to the wrong base so you end up with too few people on some bases.

    Third mistake is that some people don't understand that summons and pets are a big no no. They attack prepped djinns or pillars and youi have no control over them. Sometimes it doesn't help that the leader says no summons / pets.

    Fourth mistake is that the group believes everybody has voice. So messages are only given through voicechat. That means those who don't have sound won't get the vital messages. So the leader has to type to ask if anyone not on voicechat and type the critical mesages about base assignmetns and when we can kill the djinns.

    Fifth mistake is that some people don't understand what prepping actually means. So they go to a base and start killing everything they see. It's even worse when you use the bard method which fascinates the trash so you can focus on only the djjinn. Then one person attacking a trash mob can ruin everything.

    Sixth mistake is to not have a strong enough team at each base to deal with mishaps like lag, not good enough coordination on the pillar destruction etc. Sometimes you have to re-prep and that means you have to have someone who can heal. This problem is not always easy to overcome because many groups struggle to get enough healers into the group. Sometimes it works because semihealers can do a great job keeping people alive.

    Seventh mistake and maybe the biggest mistake is people failing to inform that they don't know exactlly what to do. The leader can make the best plan possible and ask if there are any questions. If you don't understand everything and fail to say so then the VON6 base part is in jeopardy. It takes only 1 person to ruin this. So you need to have people who understand when it's time to kill the prepped djinns and then move on to the pillars.

    I think poor leadership has contributed to some of the failed VON6's, but most times I see it fail it's because 1-2 people don't follow instructions. It's very hard to anticipate that because you can only deal with it when you're at the base. Then it's often too late since the base could be wiped in no time.
    Last edited by Peter_Stauffenberg; 05-15-2013 at 05:05 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Because a random pug is made up of two people that know how to do it and the rest that don't. Instead of explaining anything, those two people just randomly do everything while not explaining anything to the people that don't know what they're doing. Rinse and repeat. It probably took me 8 or 9 times completing before I even knew what was going on.
    This is EXACTLY what happened when I ran these raids for the first and only time. We failed in part 6 and I still don't know precisely why. No one bothered to explain anything, despite the group leader repeatedly saying that many of us were new and didn't know what was going on. They ran ahead and expected everyone to keep up, often moaning and groaning when we didn't know what to do. I had similar experiences in the Shroud and Tempest's Spine. It makes raids completely un-fun when you are new to them, and the game is not set up to let anyone learn a raid. You must simply follow the zerging hordes and try and keep up, or go read about it on the wiki, which is ridiculous.

    I play this game to experience new content, and theoretically, to enjoy it. Not to zerg mindlessly through something that could have been cool, but wasn't, because I couldn't take the time to figure it out on my own.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Dude, I think your babble fish is broken, I really don't know how else you get ^this^ from:
    And here I had thought from most of your previous posts that you were a total muppet.

    But the babel fish reference definitely buys you a slice of patience Well played sir.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 05-15-2013 at 07:33 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~ForumsbrokeDaSawks View Post
    Because all gear except SOS has been superseded by new stuff.
    Nothing at level supersedes a whole lot of that raid gear, even if it's not used at level 25. Belt of Brute Strength. Petitioner's Staff. Tharne's Goggles. Kundarak Delving Boots.

    And nothing supersedes the Seven-fingered, or Litany, or the Quiver. At all. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ForumsbrokeDaSawks View Post
    No one wants to run Von, or VOD, or Abbot, or Titan.........
    I WANT to run Titan, but that one is hard to get a group for. :-)

    VoD gets run slightly more than Titan, but, yes, not much anymore.

    But VoN & Abbot both get run often on my server, including by my guild.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnaldo View Post
    ...the game is not set up to let anyone learn a raid. You must simply follow the zerging hordes and try and keep up, or go read about it on the wiki, which is ridiculous.

    I play this game to experience new content, and theoretically, to enjoy it. Not to zerg mindlessly through something that could have been cool, but wasn't, because I couldn't take the time to figure it out on my own.
    Why on earth would you join a group of people who know it if you want to learn it on your own?

    Why can't you go in and figure it out on your own? How do you think it got learned in the first place?

    I really don't understand your complaint; it seems your wounds are self-inflicted.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    How many threads were there from when this game went F2P up to now saying "I don't log onto this game to teach newbs, I log on to have fun myself. They should learn the hard way, I did"
    I'm same time period as you, from the first weekend the game went F2P.

    But you know, that's still a valid point. New players should not feel entitled to someone else doing all the work, or baby-stepping them through it. It is reasonable to expect people to put some of their own effort into learning the game. How about asking questions? Most people are happy to answer questions...but if they don't even ask, I'm not going to answer. Looking the quest up on the Wiki is a smart thing for a new player to do. (If they want the joy of discovering new content, they should not be joining groups at all, they should be starting their own "no spoilers" group or something.)

    How did I learn the puzzle in VoN5? Went in there solo, and screwed around with just that puzzle for like an hour and a half. Drew a diagram. Charted out, not just one, but every possible solution. Now I head there and complete it in 2 minutes, because I put the effort into learning it. Someday I'll have to do the same with The Sane Asylum, but I haven't yet.

    Sometimes I do teaching runs; sometimes I don't. For some quests, I say "all welcome", for others, I say "know it", and others I just solo, depending on the quest difficulty, my mood, or whatever.

    It really is OK for people to learn things the hard way. And it's vastly preferable to them not learning at all.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImanCarrot View Post
    I have Guildies dreading their first Shroud run because they know zergers are gonna give them grief.

    Explain things, if you don't you only have yourself to blame.
    For raids that have been around for, literally, years, I'm not going to do a full explanation when, in almost every single run, every single party member has done it many times before. If YOU don't know, ASK. If I don't explain things after you ask, that's my fault. If I don't explain things because you lied by omission by pretending to know it, that's YOUR fault.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Why can't you go in and figure it out on your own? How do you think it got learned in the first place?
    Seriously?

    I mean, apart from the "no hireling" stuff, that already stop some people to try to solo underlevel raids, specifically in VoN you can see about 20% of the quest before stopping cold on the 6-runes doors. You can solve the puzzle, then face Otto. And then you need 5 more people.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    For raids that have been around for, literally, years, I'm not going to do a full explanation when, in almost every single run, every single party member has done it many times before. If YOU don't know, ASK. If I don't explain things after you ask, that's my fault. If I don't explain things because you lied by omission by pretending to know it, that's YOUR fault.
    While I understand people not wanting to give full detailed explanations in case we have a new person on the raid, I see no reason to at least not state the obvious. Things like "X will get voice and ring", "Y will stay on puzzle for conquest", "No one talks to the dwarf until we are all on the room" or "don't use elemental weapons on the golem".

    Basic stuff, quick to type/say, and helps even some distracted vets.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    How many threads were there from when this game went F2P up to now saying "I don't log onto this game to teach newbs, I log on to have fun myself. They should learn the hard way, I did"... this is the natural progression from that.

    And I'll accept a lot of blame, I was one of those arguing that in the long run this would end up with a watered down populace where every PUG is a crapshoot and the "veterans" would be mostly at fault, but a lot of times I would rather go out of my way to solo or take a hireling than try to teach a lot of these newer peeps. For every 1 that wants to learn and listens you get a bunch that think their **** don't stink and they know it all, they get coddled and gently brought along and when the people who do that aren't available they run with the real populace and can't function; as a coping mechanism rather than accept the blame and learn they assume everyone but the Hjealbot that they usually run with are gimps and refuse to keep them alive.

    Case in point, over my last few lives I have taken to soloing more and more things, not because I WANT to or because I think I'm awesome (even though I do, in fact, think I am awesome), but because 10 times out of 10 unless I HAVE to have someone else there (that quest in Necro I, Last Stand, the one where you protect Coyle, etc..) it's easier even if it takes longer to just do it myself. Then I don't have to listen to whining because I'm going too fast, or too slow, or player X demanding X loot, or X hates Y from Z guild... I'm on life number 11 and it's a life I just want to get through so I can move on to one I think I'll enjoy. I don't have time to deal with the BS. I'm assuming it's the same for a lot of veterans or those who would teach out there.

    I think what happened is a lot of First gen players genuinely TRIED to teach (there are a few who are d-bags before and are d-bags now and will always be d-bags, but the majority of those who remember 16 and below level caps are pretty cool) but kept getting rebuffed for their efforts or not listened to and the noobish gameplay has continued completely unabated for so long that they gave up. While I was on the side saying they should go that extra mile to teach, I no longer am. As a new player, if YOU want to learn, then YOU need to ask questions. YOU need to admit you don't know content. The onus for learning how to play something is on YOU. It's not my job to KNOW what you do or don't know about a given quest, and since so often any advice is seen as insulting I'm not going to give advice unless it's asked for.

    Last paragraph, I promise: when I started (first wave of F2Pers), TRs and the like would not walk across the street to spit on me if I was on fire. IF I got into groups, as soon as it was known I was one of those "Froobs" I was pretty much ignored. Instead of going "Woe is me" and whining about it all the time, I learned by paying attention to my surroundings and doing what I could to help. The fact that when that happens now I am shocked just goes further to point to the sad state of affairs that is the now normal DDO PUG.
    I don't teach much either.... unless I am asked.

    I will gladly show/explain etc. If someone asks me to.

    But I prefer to just follow along and let others set the pace.

    I do offer advice when I see that it is needed to complete.... like "we cannot finish this quest unless we have the voice."

    I do not enjoy soloing.

    Like I said, I tend to let others set whatever pace they like.
    I also generally give no spoilers..... let them figure it out.

    In VON 5 it is big enough for me to go off elsewhere and do something if the group is standing around and getting on my nerves.


    I PUG all the time.
    Most are not too bad. Not as friendly as I like, but not too bad.

    Every now and then you get that whiner....
    or controller... etc.

    If it is their group I generally try to please them. (or leave if they cross a line...)
    If they are not leader, they sometimes get /squelched if their whining gets too much for me.


    Anyway, we were all noobs once. experienced people taught me, or at least let me come along and watch...
    So I try to be tolerant and helpful..... at least silently if nothing else....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Why on earth would you join a group of people who know it if you want to learn it on your own?

    Why can't you go in and figure it out on your own? How do you think it got learned in the first place?

    I really don't understand your complaint; it seems your wounds are self-inflicted.
    Well, I have gone into raids on my own, above level or whathaveyou. However, you can only proceed so far in several of the raids I've tried alone (VON 5, Twilight Forge, etc.) without having a few people to help. (For example, there is a pair of door with six simultaneous triggers in VON 5. I tried to set all of them off on my own, half with my druid's pet, half myself. After many attempts, I found it to be impossible. I could not proceed further on my own. I got through several sections of Twilight Forge on my own, using my pet to trigger things on the other sides of closed door, but got stuck on multiple tries in different sections. Perhaps you see the issue now...)

    However, even for those raids that are possible to solo (I have done Tempest's Spine and Chronoscope that way, for example), I think there is still a missed opportunity for the fun to be had with a group learning it together. I have a tiny guild, not large enough to fill a raid, and perhaps if we happened to all be on at the same time (hardly ever happens), and were a certain amount over-level, we could explore and conquer a raid or two. In lieu of that, it would be nice to have something like a separate set of LFM listings for those completely new to quests.

    Alas, that is perhaps a rant for another time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnaldo View Post
    Well, I have gone into raids on my own, above level or whathaveyou. However, you can only proceed so far in several of the raids I've tried alone (VON 5, Twilight Forge, etc.) without having a few people to help. (For example, there is a pair of door with six simultaneous triggers in VON 5. I tried to set all of them off on my own, half with my druid's pet, half myself. After many attempts, I found it to be impossible. I could not proceed further on my own. I got through several sections of Twilight Forge on my own, using my pet to trigger things on the other sides of closed door, but got stuck on multiple tries in different sections. Perhaps you see the issue now...)
    Raids really aren't meant to be learned solo. Sure, you can read the wiki, though tbh I never have. Here's how I learned the games various raids: Observation and asking questions.

    To go with the threads' topic of VoN, first announce your newness. If they're jerks about it, wait for the next group; most of the time being new is a nonissue. When assignments are called out, ie "Bob gets the ring & voice" follow Bob. Ask him if he minds explaining where he gets the ring and voice, and what he's doing with them. Chances are Bob will be willing - if not happy - to show you where to go & what to do. He was cool about it when I asked, and it's probably how he learned in the first place. Repeat this until you're comfortable with the ring and voice procedure. Then choose a new assignment, ie "Bob is on the puzzle" and repeat. Now go flag for Titan, Abbot, Shroud etc and reapply this process.

    Tl;dr: Most raids can certainly be run many times as a dps semi-piker who follows the crowd and beats on things. But if you wish to learn the various "roles" like "ring & voice guy" (VoN) or "crystal guy" (Shroud) or "tiler" (Abbot) or "gunner" (Titan) Then Ask.

    If you just keep joining lfms and following along like a lemming, waiting to learn by osmosis, don't blame others for not teaching you.

    This IM(not-so)HO is why it "seems nobody knows the raids." It's because they don't take an active role in learning them.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

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