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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Because a random pug is made up of two people that know how to do it and the rest that don't. Instead of explaining anything, those two people just randomly do everything while not explaining anything to the people that don't know what they're doing. Rinse and repeat. It probably took me 8 or 9 times completing before I even knew what was going on.
    That's /thread right there. It's also /game.

    If you failed in VoN 5&6 then YOU failed. About 4 lines of text typed into party chat is the difference between failing because nobody knew what to do and succeeding.

  2. #22
    Community Member ~kruemeli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    That's /thread right there. It's also /game.

    If you failed in VoN 5&6 then YOU failed. About 4 lines of text typed into party chat is the difference between failing because nobody knew what to do and succeeding.
    I think that is a bit harsh.And that depends on PUG-mates being able to take/follow/read instructions... and 4 or 40 lines of typed text in Party Chat do not help much sometimes....

    I have been in more than one VON5 where suddenly it ended up "who's got the voice?" sort of thing. After about 20 mins of finger pointing and insulting and denying... suddenly someone decides after all to check their inventory... and LO the voice... if at the crunch Point everyone had taken 30 secs to check their inventory (even easier now with the searchable Tabs) then it would have been soooo much smoother. Some People are idiots... and not just those that start the final fight before everyone has arrived!
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kruemeli View Post
    I have been in more than one VON5 where suddenly it ended up "who's got the voice?" sort of thing. After about 20 mins of finger pointing and insulting and denying... suddenly someone decides after all to check their inventory... and LO the voice...

    That's exactly what I'm getting at though. If you ask, "Who's got voice?" and no one answers... then that's when you should say in party chat...

    Everyone STOP right where you are! We NEED the voice, open you inventory and use the text search.

    There isn't any point in going any further until the voice is found.

    That being said, if it even comes to that your raid leader has already failed as a raid leader. The raid leader should either be grabbing the voice themselves, or making sure a designated person does. Same with the ring. If there is ever a time when they are unaccounted for... leadership fail.

    Soon as Otto Knucklebones drops dead the ring bearer should be picking it up. If they can't find it, everything should stop immediately.

    If it seems like there are several people that don't know what's going on, well, it's time to actually lead the raid and explain. OK, on the other side of this door is a red named mob named Otto, he will drop a ring, DO NOT pick it up.

    OK, the boss is a big iron golem. DO NOT use any elemental energy on him. None. MAKE SURE you have an adamantine weapon or ask in party chat for it to be cast on you.

    Personally, whether I'm leading the raid or not, I carry adamantine scrolls to cast on people just in case.

    As someone who ran around cluelessly following the mob my first dozen or so times in there, I can attest that the few times someone actually led the raid I followed directions and didn't do something entirely boneheaded like grabbing the ring and jumping into the lava.

    For the record, one of the first times I led a raid in there (heroic elite), I didn't know about the adamantine damage reduction or to tell casters to get disintegrate. Things went smooth to the boss where the end fight lasted about 30 minutes and never succeeded. We went right back in with adamantine weapon scrolls and completed.

    In VoN and ounce of prevention is worth 2 tons of cure.

  4. #24
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    Default My answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrir_Mule_S View Post
    Seriously, After four failed PUGs in a row it really makes me wonder.

    Is it that hard for people to follow orders these days?

    Edit: and sorry tho all those I've offended.
    Simple, and I think most players since 2009/2010 will agree. You cannot solo them and learn the quest so that you can get comfortable with the layout.

    Seriously, I started playing the very day the game went F2P. I left Blizzard where I had been for YEARS, heavily invested in that game to come here.

    If there is a quest in DDO I can solo, with our without loot, I have basically done it. Von 5 in that chain is the end of the game as far as the VON chain goes for me.

    I do not want to spend 20/40 minutes in a quest I have never done before, with the group 3/4 of the way ahead of me while I am enjoying the sights of the raid, where I get no chance to read the lore, books, or even just run back and forth for 6 hours learning every nook and cranny of the map so I know when I want to join a pug for it.

    It took me 3 years just to decide I was going to try Tempest Spine alone with DDOWiki to help, and frankly, I was surprised how easy it was. But I could solo it. I can solo Chrono. That is about it. If I cannot solo a quest/raid to get comfortable with the map/zone/whatever in the quest--- I skip it. I cannot miss or regret that of which I am blocked from learning.

    This whole B.S. thing Turbine has against allowing hires in raids, no matter how low level and insignificant they are in terms of end game puts up a great big huge stop sign to players like me that prefer go in by ourselves (regardless of how much money we spend in the DDOStore to complete....Did you read that turbine? I would spend money on your game GLADLY AND REPEATEDLY just so I can get comfortable with a quest/raid before joining a PUG LFM for it).

    I hate joining PUGs for a quest or rad I have never solo'd first. I hate zerging through a quest when it is my first time in the quest(and raid). I want to take in the sights, toss on my intricate Field optics and look for secrets, LEARN.

    I do not care about loot. If Turbine had any real common sense, they would allow hirelings in a raid, with the clear and concise warning that {{{***** Summoning a hireling in this raid will result in no named items (excluding ings) will drop in any chest*****}}}

    Most old flickers like me like to LEARN at our own pace, and trust me, it takes us a bit longer than you youngsters to learn things, our minds are more like a wet mop, they just can't absorb as much as they did when they were new, we have to keep wringing them out to get all the relevant info. (Ok, that is just my old mind that works that way)
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    If you failed in VoN 5&6 then YOU failed. About 4 lines of text typed into party chat is the difference between failing because nobody knew what to do and succeeding.
    Lol ^that's^ /**** right there
    Quote Originally Posted by kruemeli View Post
    ...that depends on PUG-mates being able to take/follow/read instructions... and 4 or 40 lines of typed text in Party Chat do not help much sometimes....

    I have been in more than one VON5 where suddenly it ended up "who's got the voice?" sort of thing. After about 20 mins of finger pointing and insulting and denying... suddenly someone decides after all to check their inventory... and LO the voice... if at the crunch Point everyone had taken 30 secs to check their inventory (even easier now with the searchable Tabs) then it would have been soooo much smoother. Some People are idiots... and not just those that start the final fight before everyone has arrived!
    So much ^this^

    I've been in many a Raid where, be it VoN, Shroud, Abbot... It's all the same. While decent leadership is important, especially when there's new-to-quest players in the group; proper instructions aren't worth a rats' behind if people aren't listening to them. Worse yet, in my experience it's more often the "vets" who "know what to do" that don't pay attention & screw up more than the first timers, followed by "lol oops, my bad :P" as they kill the cat early, forget to organize inventory to make finding the boulders fast & easy, or as in VoN - forget to put on feather fall as they jump to a tower and promptly die in the lava... with the voice.

    No amount of proper instructions ensures people will follow them.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 05-11-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Draksel's Avatar
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    Default Learning quests

    I think I have learned most of the quests that I know by trying to keep track of what needs to be checked off in the quest window and reviewing any DM speach in the general chat tab. Sure it took several goes at it to figure out Chrono, but the knowledge came. I've had my share of great party-mates that have explained alot, especially for Shroud, but its a shame some people just refuse to listen or even just try to find out on their own. DDOWiki was my best friend early on...

  7. #27
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    VoN needs leadership but it also needs people who can carry them out. I may be lucky but in my 16 pug completions only 2 failed on EE and EH. EE people treated the traps and caster spammers like they all had improved evasion, and died. The EH was 3 failed attempts at prepping fire, air, ice, 3 in a row....

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abyssal_Mage View Post
    That could be a red flag right there

    From experience...

    I did a pick-up Chrono run after I just purchased the pack (and people still did PUG runs) and I told the person leading it that I was new to DDO and the adventure. He was fine with that (He was 20, the cap at the time, and 2 other players also knew it and where high level).

    So we enter, and the three players proceeded to run through, grab all of the optionals and do the first boss fight. There was no communication and if not for one kind individual there would of been 7 soulstones sitting in the city why these three just zerged it. After my second death, I quickly realized I needed to stay behind the person picking up everyone's soulstone because these individuals (the 3 high level players) had no intention of teaching us the quest or cared what happened to us. Honestly they were probably having a great laugh at everyone dieing and calling us names (but I am only assuming this). We finish the quest, they loot, and dropped. Although there were a few upset people, everyone else thanked the kind individual who babysat our soulstones and I never ran another PUG Chono with the original leader.

    So why did I bring this up?

    Because if veterans want "newer" players to learn some of the old raids, they have to teach us. That or do what the three individuals did and run through it and expect us to know what they did without ever telling us what we should be doing. I still don't know how to run Chrono but at least I know more than that first fateful run Just a hint: I don't learn by watching your little blue arrow on the compass run around
    When the cap was 20 I myself quite constantly lead echrono pugs, with 1 or 2 guildies. I have no problem trying to show new people what the quest is about, what we are going to be doing, what they should be doing etc. I don't find it my responsibility to ask each player if it is their first time, but you always get those people that never mention they have never done the quest before. They just follow people or run ahead and have no idea whats going on, so when you get to say, part 2 of echrono in the sewers and that person runs straight down before any cc is down or runs down while you are trying to drag the orthon up the stairs... Usually when I see what your talking about people never pipe up and say it is their first time, they just assume they can come along for the ride. Generally when someone says something to the party leader like they have never run it before, I usually see the party leader explain whats going on as best as they can or ask if someone can better explain it. If a party leader is unwilling to explain it generally isn't a worthy group because it usually turn out that they don't know what's doing on either or they don't care. If it's either of these situations, you probably don't want to be in that group.

    When I fill groups I usually assume everyone knows what they are doing unless they tell me it is their first time. So when players don't mention things like this you run into a whole ton of problems. I have been in those groups where the party leader doesn't lead and just walks onto bases and everyone dies. I have also been in runs where someone who doesn't know the quest wipe's the party because no one knows it is their first time. Things like von 6 are really easy on epic hard all you need is communication. Not even that for von6 all you need is someone to say who goes where. Prep djinni's to 15%, auto attack off, etc. The all around problem is people who don't speak up, whether it be the party leader or a player who has never run a specific quest before. When new raids come out like FoT for the first little bit I ask if it is anyone's first time, but after it has been out for a while i generally expect whoever is applying to know it or for them to send a tell saying they have never run it before.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Because a random pug is made up of two people that know how to do it and the rest that don't. Instead of explaining anything, those two people just randomly do everything while not explaining anything to the people that don't know what they're doing. Rinse and repeat. It probably took me 8 or 9 times completing before I even knew what was going on.
    ^ This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Because all LFMs for the last four years have said "know it" instead of anyone taking the time to teach new players.
    ^ And this...

    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    <snip>

    If there is a quest in DDO I can solo, with our without loot, I have basically done it. Von 5 in that chain is the end of the game as far as the VON chain goes for me.

    I do not want to spend 20/40 minutes in a quest I have never done before, with the group 3/4 of the way ahead of me while I am enjoying the sights of the raid, where I get no chance to read the lore, books, or even just run back and forth for 6 hours learning every nook and cranny of the map so I know when I want to join a pug for it.

    <snip>
    ^ And a good chunk of this.

    I hate running VoN 5/6 because players rarely ever take the time to explain what is going on. When someone explains what's going on, there's usually a few players that get antsy and wants the raid to just complete already so they can move on to something else in the game.

    Not being able to run around a raid to explorer the layout of an area is a reason I've never ran the Titan raid. Okay, there's also that silly reason of no one wanting to running it also. But exploring the pre-raid was really tricky before MOTU; post-MOTU there's little reason to run the raid for items.

    The Abbot raid is also another one that I hate. It has the know-it or just throw boulders. If boulders is full, too bad, go learn the other stuff and try to join later.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Lol ^that's^ /**** right there
    What new players like you don't understand is that for veterans the raid is very simple. I'm sure it seems overwhelmingly difficult to you now, but trust me, just keep at it and one day you'll see it doesn't take a perfectly executed effort by 12 well geared players to complete VoN, even on EE. It simply takes a little bit of coordination brought about through a basic level of leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow
    When I fill groups I usually assume everyone knows what they are doing unless they tell me it is their first time.
    When I come to a cliff I usually just walk right off the edge and assume someone will build a bridge under my feet as I go.

    The critical flaw with your philosophy is in that knowing a raid isn't a black and white issue. First of all, there are very different duties to be performed by different roles, so while a person might've completed a raid a dozen times on their healer, when they go in on a fighter it's a completely different story. Additionally, not all raids are run the same by every group, so while there is usually a commonly accepted strategy, there are often a number of better, yet completely different, strategies that are used by different groups.

    For example, prepping the Djinni's is the most common strategy. However, it's not the most successful, and therefore certainly not the best strategy. The most successful strategy is for everyone to wait for air to get in position and then nuke. This has worked flawlessly every time I've seen it used, whereas we all know how the prep method can go awry, over and over and over again.

    I also want to address the attitude of, "I'm a super nice person who is more than happy to go far, far out of my way to help someone out and show them what to do while holding hands and painting rainbows and drinking tea... as long as they tell me up front they are new... however... IF THEY DON'T TELL ME UP FRONT... THEN I WILL SMITE THEM DOWN WITH SHAME AND RIDICULE!!!

    I've got news for you, you're not really a nice person if you are only nice to people who measure up to the arbitrary standard you have created for them.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    I've got news for you, you're not really a nice person if you are only nice to people who measure up to the arbitrary standard you have created for them.
    Well I started writing something, went afk came back and it logged me out so I'll just throw a few lines together here ...

    My standards are for people who are new to the raid to let me know. You don't just join a raid and let things happen. Why would you join a raid you have never done before without letting the party leader know you have never done it? That is just plain stupidity IMO.

    I expect people who join to know the basics of a raid, if they don't, all they have to do before joining is send me a tell to let me know it is their first time. My post was directed at the people who don't speak up and they are the ones that cause the problems. If I ask someone to do something and they say sure and they die doing it and it causes problems well, they should of said something like sure I can do that but I have never done it before. Just like when you join von you don't follow people around and that's it. After the party leader gives the base instructions and people say k than you go. If a new person doesn't say they dont know what to do well why the hell are they there. Let some know you have not don't it before.

    I think you possibly misunderstood what I was trying to say(I might not of explained it very well) and that is like I already said in the start of this post is that I expect people to know a few basics of the raid not that they should know it by heart or not join. I just expect people to know a few things that happen in the raid and if not I appreciate people telling me they have never done it before. A good example would be abbot, where I expect people to know that there will be three ddoors up and that there are three puzzles we need to complete in order to fight the abbot. I expect that from some people but I also expect that the people who have never done it to send me a tell, so that I can explain there is 3 ddoor's and not to go running past the line or else the bridge will drop. Just things like that, I just need to know who needs to learn about the raid, but I always give instructions I don't assume people know how I run my raids.
    Last edited by moo_cow; 05-12-2013 at 10:16 PM.

  12. #32
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    Default I Don't lead raids because...

    OK - let me back up a little.

    I lead raids - if I know them well enough to lead them.

    I lead FoT
    I lead Abbot
    I lead Shroud
    I lead CiTW
    I lead ToD

    I WILL NOT LEAD VoN 5/6

    It's not that I don't know the quests - I'm just not good at leading them - or at least I'm not particularly good at putting the right group together to get things done in VoN6.

    Why? Likely it's because I've never had the want or need to run the quest over and over and over for items. I primarily play a caster and there's really nothing in there that I want or need. I've got a melee toon - but he's always been TWF, not THF. Next life - THF for end game and I'll probably run VoN 5/6 until I'm blue in the face and get my ESoS. Sometime around my 5th or 6th run on that life I'll hopefully be competent enough to lead one - I'm just not now because I don't run it often enough to learn to lead it.

    What's the moral of my story? Don't try to led a Raid until you're sure you know all of the ins and outs of the quest. If you do, no one is to blame for failure except you (and the six new 28-point build guys you let in the group that forgot to tell you they've never run the quest before).

    And one piece of advice for anyone thinking of leading any raid for the first time:
    Find someone you know that knows how to run the raid. If things start to go awry while you're leading - hand the reigns to the person that knows what to do and don't be ashamed to let that person chime in if you forget something or to keep communication up. We've all been there - whether we remember it or not - and it's in everyone's best interest to have more people able to lead raids.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    What new players like you...
    roflmfao

    Going by my join date are you? Or is it the content of my post that has you determining my newness? I'm genuinely curious, as you seem to have forgotten asking me this in another thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    Was there not a day when OP could be considered a noob?
    If you bothered checking back after posting your question, you would've seen that I answered it

    So which is it? Am I too new to have an experience based opinion with regard to raids, or have I been around so long that I may have forgotten what it's like to be new? I really don't see how it can be both...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  14. #34
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    We've just done the smoothest elite-streak friendly VON5 that I've saw for a long time.

    We started it up, asked who knew how to do X task, and assigned that task to them. As other people joined we told them where we were and asked if anyone wasn't familiar with the raid to let us know so we can give them specific directions.

    We picked up the voice and the ring straight away to avoid any confusion. We assigned three people to go right while the rest went left at the north trap corridor, and only had to repeat that 3 or 4 times and ask someone to come back to the other side once, which beats the typical 3 minute debacle we've come to expect. We had two trappers with evasion so they could work their way up the north corridor without any incidents.

    In and out in 20 minutes.

    Now this wasn't smooth because we're all uber-awesome. It went smoothly because we provided clear leadership, assigned tasks and checked on progress, a few of us were on voice and everyone was on ears.

    So contrary to the OP, that's the sort of run that gives me confidence that people do still know what they're doing.

    We're on Ghallanda btw, so maybe it's just a server-specific thing?
    Last edited by Deadlock; 05-13-2013 at 04:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post

    Going by my join date are you? Or is it the content of my post that has you determining my newness?
    I was referring to the fact that you seem very apprehensive and anxious about the VoN raid, a very simple raid even with a pug full of new players, so long as there is a modicum of leadership. Anyone with much experience playing DDO would not fear VoN as much as you seem to.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    ...In and out in 20 minutes.
    ...
    We're on Ghallanda btw, so maybe it's just a server-specific thing?
    No there are still such BB pugs also on Orien... but it is a lucky dip!

    Being newbie friendly definitely helps.... asking the Players joining if they know the quest... explaining stuff...
    I also found a general trend... some first lifers in "high-mid" Level guilds (60-80) are much less likely to listen to instructions or cooperate on things than the 85+ crowd or the 30-50 crowd. Don't yet have statistics or hard data... just a feeling from Pugging too much! There are a number of first life toons out there that are too arrogant by far...

    EDIT: My momentary main toon is on 8th life... whenever I go and Play a bit on a first life toon... I am always amazed at how squishy - even with twink gear - it is.
    Last edited by kruemeli; 05-13-2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason: more to say...
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    I was referring to the fact that you seem very apprehensive and anxious about the VoN raid, a very simple raid even with a pug full of new players, so long as there is a modicum of leadership. Anyone with much experience playing DDO would not fear VoN as much as you seem to.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    No amount of proper instructions ensures people will follow them.
    Where's the apprehension? I made an observation; one based on having run several raids, several times. I've noticed on multiple occasions that while good leadership was present and quality instructions given, if people aren't following those instructions, simply issuing them doesn't lead to a successful raiding experience.

    In other words, my raiding experience directly conflicts with the accusatory statement you made towards the OP with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    If you failed in VoN 5&6 then YOU failed. About 4 lines of text typed into party chat is the difference between failing because nobody knew what to do and succeeding.
    Tl;dr - Telling people what to do does not garauntee success, they actually have to be paying attention and carrying out the instructions in those "four line of text."
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  18. #38
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    Most successful VON runs that I have been on started out with a core group of players who knew the drill and could do it on their own, and put up an LFM in progress to get moar people involved. The ones I've been on that were pure PUGs were scattershot as far as successful completions. That raid is one of the few group-only raids that I know of. So there needs to be a lot of coordination, especially when you get to those doors when both sides have to pull the lever / hit their targets / use the run at the same time (the one at the end of the split hallway with the lightning traps.

    Honestly, I rather enjoy the teamwork experience.

    However, the one thing I've noticed is that this one quest tends to attract a LOT of pikers - I have no idea why. The few times that I've seen people actually pike on a raid, it was VON. Maybe because a lot of groups split up to accomplish the objectinves quickly, or because it is so expansive, I really don't know. But in my experience, this raid tends to draw pikers like flies to ****.

    There used to be a few guilds on G-Land that had open VON runs for fun - usually these were decent-sized guilds. They don't do that anymore. That may be part of the problem.

    I still don't get that whole "don't kill the Efreeti" thing on base three, BTW...

  19. #39
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    Is it that hard for people to follow orders these days?
    Because they're people and not hirelings? if you don't teach people how are they supposed to learn?

    Sounds like the only reason you take these player on runs is because you can't have hirelings in raids.

    I have Guildies dreading their first Shroud run because they know zergers are gonna give them grief.

    Explain things, if you don't you only have yourself to blame.


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I still don't get that whole "don't kill the Efreeti" thing on base three, BTW...
    I don't get it either. But it's there and without doing it that way it's a failure and not just on base three.

    For the rest of you folks in here, it wasn't my raid. Von5 indeed was a drama due to voice+ring being "lost", levers not being pulled, puzzle being messed up, coffer misplacement and gates not opening up. And guess what, I'm used to that happening in von5. Sad thing really, that I actually expect one or all of those things to happen at some point in von5. Sad thing but I find that this makes my game a bit more challenging, joining a pug just adds that nice effect of randomness and chaos to the quest. I actually like it that way as smooth runs are nice for the fast completions but at the same time boring as hell. But I do want a completion.

    This post was made to get it off my chest as some of you guessed right, writing it down on the forums really does help to get writ of the frustration. And as some of you gently pointed out, if anything the failure was on my part. Not so much for not explaining things the right way but for expecting a completion. If anything I should not expect that to happen, I guess.
    Mordak lives here!


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