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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?

    I am generally pretty patient. Today I was in a quest that is generally fairly tough on elite at-level, and we started off fairly poorly. The first room with significant mobs killed four or five of the party members, mostly because they all just ran in immediately and were overwhelmed. I used a clicky to raise the cleric and he got everyone else up. I mentioned that this quest can be tough and we can't just run into rooms full of mobs, and it seemed that everyone agreed with me.

    At the second room with a bunch of mobs, everyone ran in again, with another four or five deaths as a result. I mentioned again that we can't just run into these rooms, and I spoke up for the cleric, who was being somewhat berated by another player for not casting Mass Heal. I pointed out that the cleric was level 16 and didn't have Mass Heal yet.

    We get to the third room with a bunch of mobs, and once again everyone runs in. I think there was only one death at first, but then someone runs past that room, down the corridor, and aggros a bunch of other mobs and drags them back to us. More deaths, including my one for me, resulted. At that point I recalled, said, "Thanks anyway, guys. I've got to go," and I dropped group.

    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."

    Is there some point for you when you "call it" and try again later, or are you the type who will stick with a PUG forever, no matter how unintelligently they are playing and no matter how ardently they refuse to change demonstrably fatal tactics?
    Just wondering what quest? But no, leave whenever you want. Play how you like to play. Its your time and your enjoyment so if you are not having fun whats the point.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takoctopus View Post
    But no, leave whenever you want. Play how you like to play. Its your time and your enjoyment so if you are not having fun whats the point.
    If that is your attitude, then you really aught to stick to soloing. Because in a party it is not just your time. It is the time of everyone else in the group, and if they were depending on you for some specific role then you have just wasted all of their time.

    That said, from the OP it sounds like they were just outright refusing to try to actually play. If the party is going to show that they have no intention to adapt like that, and instead insist on marching face first into everything without being able to handle it.... well, I would have said goodbye after the second time that they did this without showing any intention to adjust. Some people just can't handle themselves without a pocket healer.

  3. #23
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    Most recent wipe this life was Invaders. LFM said leet need opener and had 3 members all level 12 first life.

    First half was brutal, lot of them died many times. Sword and Board FVS kept charging to melee, bard with crossbow runs in front of beholders to range them and says deathblock didnt work, it was a mess. The 2 artys were good though they had tactics. We get to the 2nd half part the render spawns wipe everyone, I jump down and tell them to jump down as well for raises. Then it goes to ****. They took raises, started running around the open doorways, also opened the closed doorways, wouldnt go back up ladder, Bard Disconnects, we all die. Was great. Called it after that though, because I can't keep that pace up and wont try again.

  4. #24
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takoctopus View Post
    Just wondering what quest? But no, leave whenever you want. Play how you like to play. Its your time and your enjoyment so if you are not having fun whats the point.
    It was Servants of the Overlord.

    I was fairly confident that if we couldn't handle even one room of drow miners we were never going to survive the end fight.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Guild: Guinness Knights

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post

    When they repeated the stupidity in the second room, I'd have left them right there.

    You lasted longer than I would have.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe-8164 View Post
    First, let me say I agree with you. The question is never really when, as that answer is easy: never, really. Unless you are in a failed raid, dungeon scaling makes it completely unnecessary to ever leave a group before completion. Maybe if you are the last person standing and everyone else has left... but then no one else but you cares what you do.

    Which explains why your first option is NEVER an appropriate statement. If YOU are leaving it is most likely because of your own faults and inabilities (or you are raging because you died). The only other option is that you realized you are playing with people who have completely incompatible objectives, in which case this statement is false in a useless (and inciteful) manner.
    And not this. Really? The rest of the group refuses to play sensibly and it's his fault for leaving? Really? I don't care if by your standards it would be my fault, I refuse to beat my head against the wall with players who won't listen to reason. So you're advocating that it's obligatory then in a game to suffer through hopeless quests based on the arbitrary distinction of it "never" being appropriate to leave? That's funny.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    It was Servants of the Overlord.

    I was fairly confident that if we couldn't handle even one room of drow miners we were never going to survive the end fight.
    Yup. Perfectly justified in leaving. That end fight can be tough. If they were dying at the beginning, then it would have been a painful couple hours getting to the end fight only to wipe.

  7. #27
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    Find yourself a nice static group with folk who share your opinions on game playing.

  8. #28
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    There should be no rules because there are too many variables.

    You can leave whenever you want to and other players can squelch you afterward if they want to. It's a free world.

    It just so happens i did servants today as well. Many deaths right from the start. End fight turned out to be quite easy, we were hiding in the cave. I don't think you can rly predict the final outcome. That's what makes it fun. I for one love quests that don't go smooth. That's what i play this game for, not the boring grind.

    Also, as i found out, recently some ppl have such tendencies against zergers that they refuse to follow party members they have "pin pointed" on purpose. Cmon ppl, there are classes in this game that are suposed to go in front of the others. And there are classes that are supposed to follow them and keep them healthy.

    For example: if a tank that is 10% slower than anybody else in the party runs in front of you and manages to die with all the protection he gets - it's your fault, no discussion here. I remember my pally life... actually all i remember was trying to outrun the other party members.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?

    I am generally pretty patient. Today I was in a quest that is generally fairly tough on elite at-level, and we started off fairly poorly. The first room with significant mobs killed four or five of the party members, mostly because they all just ran in immediately and were overwhelmed. I used a clicky to raise the cleric and he got everyone else up. I mentioned that this quest can be tough and we can't just run into rooms full of mobs, and it seemed that everyone agreed with me.

    At the second room with a bunch of mobs, everyone ran in again, with another four or five deaths as a result. I mentioned again that we can't just run into these rooms, and I spoke up for the cleric, who was being somewhat berated by another player for not casting Mass Heal. I pointed out that the cleric was level 16 and didn't have Mass Heal yet.

    We get to the third room with a bunch of mobs, and once again everyone runs in. I think there was only one death at first, but then someone runs past that room, down the corridor, and aggros a bunch of other mobs and drags them back to us. More deaths, including my one for me, resulted. At that point I recalled, said, "Thanks anyway, guys. I've got to go," and I dropped group.

    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."

    Is there some point for you when you "call it" and try again later, or are you the type who will stick with a PUG forever, no matter how unintelligently they are playing and no matter how ardently they refuse to change demonstrably fatal tactics?
    Did they really say they'd report you for abandoning the quest?! What is that? Like a 'Im going to tell mommy you won't play with me!' Kinda thing? Haha. What are they five?

    Anyways, if they weren't listening and you were the leader then leaving isn't rude in my world. To me, rude is acknowledgeing what the leader says but not acting out the instructions. But, hey, what do I know. Maybe I should be reported for telling people to listen to the leader better.

  10. #30
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    First out: I don't think you were rude in leaving.

    The main factor determining whether I stick or leave despite many deaths is the demeanor of the group members. I remember one of the quests I enjoyed most was one where we had plenty of deaths, a wipe, reset-reentry and completion with no deaths. Why? Because the members of the group were positive and the chat was fun ... For me, the game is not about "We must complete the quest with such and such a success parameter", it's a question of having fun.

    Cheers

    S

  11. #31
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    I don't think you were rude at all, although me, I'd have just said "I already explained that just running in wouldn't work, we've died repeatedly, I'm not interested in this." Blunt, but who cares? I don't think you can be reported for "abandoning quests", or rather, I can't see the GMs doing anything with such a stupid report.

    That said, me? I'll stick with a group, generally, because I learned once that there are no bad groups in MMOs; there are only good groups and funny groups. And most of the time, a funny group will suit me just fine.
    While a lot of times I have stayed a lot longer than was needed (especially if I'm the healer, I feel obligated no matter how bad people are playing and no matter how many pots I gotta chug to at least TRY), there have been times when I can tell it's over, and I just tell them as nicely as possible: "You suck. I'm leaving", and then either pike just in case they DO complete or just finish out and take quest items with me so they know they are wrong.

    All jokes aside, what seebs said is the truth. a lot of times people have only learned how to play one way, and that way is not optimal or even sane. The worst part is they run with decent to good people, who, rather than tell them they are leeches on the gaming populace and a drain on all resources, just shut up and heal them and they never have to learn how TO play right.

    Then they get to the group you were in and rather than take an honest look at why THEY seem to be dying a lot, a trend that happens more and more as the populace at large gets less and less forgiving, they blame you because So and So kept them alive at any cost, so the problem is obviously that you don't know how to play your character.

    It's sad, really, and a lot of people get this even more reinforced by running exclusively with guildies, who will bend over backwards to not cause drama and will ignore poor gameplay and coddle them along, resulting, again, in what you mention: when they go out in the general populace for a quest, they can't stay standing for longer than 11 seconds at a time.

    I offer no solution to this problem, because that's not how my system works.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
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  12. #32
    Community Member Cyndrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpycat View Post
    If Im running a ToD and some one dies in the end fight, they stay dead. Especially if they have shown thru the rest of the quest that they will just die again. I have had too many runs where you had to beat Harry down 3-6 times due to deaths.
    You are mixing up your pit fiends Grump.

  13. #33
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe-8164 View Post
    First, let me say I agree with you. The question is never really when, as that answer is easy: never, really. Unless you are in a failed raid, dungeon scaling makes it completely unnecessary to ever leave a group before completion. Maybe if you are the last person standing and everyone else has left... but then no one else but you cares what you do.

    Which explains why your first option is NEVER an appropriate statement. If YOU are leaving it is most likely because of your own faults and inabilities (or you are raging because you died). The only other option is that you realized you are playing with people who have completely incompatible objectives, in which case this statement is false in a useless (and inciteful) manner.



    Yes. Exactly. This is what you do. If you need to leave due to real life issues, well then this is the truth. If you need to leave because of playstyle issues, this is the undisproveable statement that generates the least amount of ire.

    If you need to leave because you utterly suck, then don't. I've had multiple raids fail not because of good players leaving, but because the nuissances (who were dying repeatedly) left which in turn made the mediocre players leave, which in turn made good players have to make a semi-tough choice that is sometimes made wrongly. It then cascades from there. If you are stinking it up, put on a fake smile and ride it through. Other people may be having fun.
    Yes I'm too lazy to put this all in one post :P

    While I like where you are going with what you're saying, at the end of the day it's a game. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what my reasoning is. Maybe someone's wearing Threnal armor and I hate Threnal. Thats my prerogative. If you are doing terribly in a quest and it doesn't look like you're going to be able to contribute, then you aren't having fun. The entire point of this game is for YOU to have fun. In that instance, I would expect you to leave, and I would leave if that was me. I owe nothing to the other people in that party, so their fun comes in second after MY fun.

    That being said, yes, if it can be done with a level of congeniality, then that is the route you should go. No reason to burn bridges. But the idea that even though I am not having fun and am not doing something I want to do that I need to stay so YOU or anyone else can enjoy themselves I respectfully disagree with. And to get counterpoint argumentative, at that point if that's what I'm supposed to be doing what are YOU doing to ensure MY fun? It's a merry go round, one where there's vomit on it and it smells like cat pee. Sure, it's fun and a great way to propose to your significant other, but it's still probably a tough sell to the populace at large.
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
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  14. #34
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruda View Post
    There should be no rules because there are too many variables.

    You can leave whenever you want to and other players can squelch you afterward if they want to. It's a free world.

    It just so happens i did servants today as well. Many deaths right from the start. End fight turned out to be quite easy, we were hiding in the cave. I don't think you can rly predict the final outcome. That's what makes it fun. I for one love quests that don't go smooth. That's what i play this game for, not the boring grind.
    Yeah, this.

    I've stuck it out with a problem group more than once and we ended up finishing. Sometimes with a lot less drama than I thought after a rocky start. Those that drop never know, and assume they made the right choice. You simply never know.

    Last night, I grabbed a pug for Running. It was full of a group of people I had never run with, so I had no idea what to expect. We wiped at the first fight, which is a bad sign. Everyone was very laid back, and we recalled and tried again. We did well on the first fight, but then wiped at the bottom of the stairs even though we pulled one or two at a time and went slow. Even though it was a well balanced party, it was clear we were all gimps and had no super uber toons to carry us. I'm on my Ranger life now, so he's pretty gimped for this quest. Manyshot is great, but 20 seconds of burst dps every 2:30 is not nearly enough in that quest. Melee-wise he's very survivable, but does very little damage. I tried all kinds of different weapons and nothing would knock down the clerics faster than they could heal. I finally started using my envenomed blades thinking if I couldn't kill them, I would at least paralyze them and help the party kill them. The paralyzing almost never procced. They must have nerfed the blades, or I have the worst luck ever. They used to be very effective in Running. At any rate, I'm used to being able to carry most groups if they're not the greatest, and I was practically useless in Running.

    At any rate, we managed to rez and keep going. The fights were long and hard, and everyone died at least three times, but luckily not all at the same time so we were able to rez and keep going. The sorc, wiz, and cleric were all running out of sp before we got to the shrines, and the melee just didn't have the dps + survivability to do it without them.

    But we succeeded. Yes, a group of uber toons could have done it 3 times in the time it took us to finish, but we did finish. And the end fight actually went pretty well.

    You just never know.

    But I will say that some of the times we've hung in there and kept trying were the most fun and most memorable.

  15. #35
    Community Member ~Taeb's Avatar
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    im iffy on this subject because most of the time its from rage quit so yeah those people will never get into my groups. Now as for you as a player, you have to think to myself how long have i been in here or do they listen to me, have i used enough resources?

    One thing i will tell everyone now if you are going to abandon a group tell the truth. STOP lying. i cant stand liars. i would rather tell the group sorry this is not going to work then leave then blame it on isp, guildmates calling blah blah. if you need to lie to leave a group imo you're no better then the players who don't listen. stop candy coating things and players might understand more.

    We were doing a fot en last night. the leader wanted to make sure everyone could hear him. So of course it came down to a person i didnt like. he never answered until he wrote ..... leader was like is that a yes or no. then he said DUH then duh then duwerrp. See that is a player that got kicked from our group. thank god this was before the raid even started. See its behavior like this from our players that make you hate other players. all he had to do was say yes not be a jerk.

    when 11 other people agree then you gotta wonder why people just don't like you. So my point is being a jerk will usually get ya kicked or just players leaving. not listening is just as bad as being a jerk. So for me if things meet those qualifications ill say something that its not going to work and just take my leave. what does shock me is sometimes its amazing how some groups can pull together after the trouble has left and complete. I have had many of those encounters. It feels good to complete after that. I thank anyone who went above and beyond to save the party. They didn't have to.

  16. #36
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    I also quit my first PUG out of frustration this weekend. It was an at level Elite Framework quest and I was on my Cleric. Everyone was rushing off in all directions and getting killed left, right and centre and refusing to just stick together and slowly make progress. As a Cleric that can be an incredibly frustrating quest since there are walls and ramps everywhere and if someone goes rushing off you don't have LOS so you can't heal. My job was pretty much running around all over the place, rezzing everyone and burning through mem pots. I'd often found myself being trip-locked by groups of minotaurs while people were shouting at me to heal them. At one point someone accused me of being busy beating the bishop (To turn a phrase.) to the news when I mentioned I was too busy to come rez them (I was surrounded by minotaurs at the time.)

    It got to the point where I was out of pots, last man standing, slowly being ground to mince meat when I just decided "Sod it.", chatted "I'm done. Cheers" and I left to people giving me grief for quitting

    Sometimes you've just got to call it a day.

    The thing is that I'm a very average player so I'm not quick to judge. I've often had fun leading people around who were much worse players than me. As long as they are fun to play with I don't mind.
    Last edited by Brendael; 05-13-2013 at 12:54 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?
    Once I had more than 20 deaths in VON3.
    Someone managed to pull all three bosses... and the beholder parked himself by the shrines.
    4 of the 6 People quit. 2 of us carried on fighting and completed.
    The xp is not different if one Person dies once or if two People die more than 20 times. Only the repair bill changes.

    Unfortunately real life puts some time constraints in place.

    Sometimes we wipe too far away from the shrine.
    Otherwise my guild tries to complete... however Long it takes without having to eat re-entry penalties (except when we just want to flag...).-
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  18. #38
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Everyone will have their own definition of "when they are done trying". It will have different factors depending on the person.

    Someone that joins a group for a fast completion may feel the need to leave when they realize that the completion is going to take longer then they want it too.

    Personally I stick it out until the last person. I may or may not use extra resources (Judgment call)

    However, if you feel that it is just not working out and you feel you must leave, be honest about it. I have used the following to help others see that we are just hitting our heads against a wall

    "I looks like our current group make up just isn't working" <- This does not put the blame on any one person.

    Also be honest with your resource usage - especially on a character that is providing the primary source of healing.

    As for leaving a group mid-quest the only time it is a In-Game offense is if you Curse the day the Party was made in chat and then Rage Quit. And the offense would be in the language used, not in you quitting.

  19. #39
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?

    I am generally pretty patient. Today I was in a quest that is generally fairly tough on elite at-level, and we started off fairly poorly. The first room with significant mobs killed four or five of the party members, mostly because they all just ran in immediately and were overwhelmed. I used a clicky to raise the cleric and he got everyone else up. I mentioned that this quest can be tough and we can't just run into rooms full of mobs, and it seemed that everyone agreed with me.

    At the second room with a bunch of mobs, everyone ran in again, with another four or five deaths as a result. I mentioned again that we can't just run into these rooms, and I spoke up for the cleric, who was being somewhat berated by another player for not casting Mass Heal. I pointed out that the cleric was level 16 and didn't have Mass Heal yet.

    We get to the third room with a bunch of mobs, and once again everyone runs in. I think there was only one death at first, but then someone runs past that room, down the corridor, and aggros a bunch of other mobs and drags them back to us. More deaths, including my one for me, resulted. At that point I recalled, said, "Thanks anyway, guys. I've got to go," and I dropped group.

    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."

    Is there some point for you when you "call it" and try again later, or are you the type who will stick with a PUG forever, no matter how unintelligently they are playing and no matter how ardently they refuse to change demonstrably fatal tactics?
    Oh yeah, been on a few of those.

    Most of the time, if someone steps up and offers a plan, the rest fall into line. I've been the weak link of the party, and I've been the guy who coordinates the group. When I was the weak link, I offered up what I could to get through the quest, and we all worked around it. When I ended up being the leader, I offered a plan, and people worked with it. Were there a few deaths? Sure. But we got through the quest.

    Really, the only thing you can do in the situation you've described is to recall and bolt. If they will not work together, won't take advice from the one guy who is not dying in the quest, and start berating the healer (heck, these days they sould be GLAD they had a dedicated healer), it's time to just move on. if they are that idiotic, they are not going to listen to reason regardless of the source.

    And if they squelch you, consider it a bonus.

  20. #40
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    It was Servants of the Overlord.

    I was fairly confident that if we couldn't handle even one room of drow miners we were never going to survive the end fight.
    First, that is not an easy quest. I love the quest iteslf, and can run it at level on elite with my wizzy if I am with a competent group. But if you have one or two weak members, it is going to get ugly real fast.

    Secondly, I just noticed the part where you mentioned about the tells the guys was sending you. You should have called his bluff. Tell him to go whining to a GM or whomever. Odds are, nothing would come of it.

    It sounds like something a 9-year old would do.

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