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  1. #1
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Default When to call it hopeless without being rude?

    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?

    I am generally pretty patient. Today I was in a quest that is generally fairly tough on elite at-level, and we started off fairly poorly. The first room with significant mobs killed four or five of the party members, mostly because they all just ran in immediately and were overwhelmed. I used a clicky to raise the cleric and he got everyone else up. I mentioned that this quest can be tough and we can't just run into rooms full of mobs, and it seemed that everyone agreed with me.

    At the second room with a bunch of mobs, everyone ran in again, with another four or five deaths as a result. I mentioned again that we can't just run into these rooms, and I spoke up for the cleric, who was being somewhat berated by another player for not casting Mass Heal. I pointed out that the cleric was level 16 and didn't have Mass Heal yet.

    We get to the third room with a bunch of mobs, and once again everyone runs in. I think there was only one death at first, but then someone runs past that room, down the corridor, and aggros a bunch of other mobs and drags them back to us. More deaths, including my one for me, resulted. At that point I recalled, said, "Thanks anyway, guys. I've got to go," and I dropped group.

    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."

    Is there some point for you when you "call it" and try again later, or are you the type who will stick with a PUG forever, no matter how unintelligently they are playing and no matter how ardently they refuse to change demonstrably fatal tactics?
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?

    I am generally pretty patient. Today I was in a quest that is generally fairly tough on elite at-level, and we started off fairly poorly. The first room with significant mobs killed four or five of the party members, mostly because they all just ran in immediately and were overwhelmed. I used a clicky to raise the cleric and he got everyone else up. I mentioned that this quest can be tough and we can't just run into rooms full of mobs, and it seemed that everyone agreed with me.

    At the second room with a bunch of mobs, everyone ran in again, with another four or five deaths as a result. I mentioned again that we can't just run into these rooms, and I spoke up for the cleric, who was being somewhat berated by another player for not casting Mass Heal. I pointed out that the cleric was level 16 and didn't have Mass Heal yet.

    We get to the third room with a bunch of mobs, and once again everyone runs in. I think there was only one death at first, but then someone runs past that room, down the corridor, and aggros a bunch of other mobs and drags them back to us. More deaths, including my one for me, resulted. At that point I recalled, said, "Thanks anyway, guys. I've got to go," and I dropped group.

    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."

    Is there some point for you when you "call it" and try again later, or are you the type who will stick with a PUG forever, no matter how unintelligently they are playing and no matter how ardently they refuse to change demonstrably fatal tactics?
    I don't think you were rude at all, although me, I'd have just said "I already explained that just running in wouldn't work, we've died repeatedly, I'm not interested in this." Blunt, but who cares? I don't think you can be reported for "abandoning quests", or rather, I can't see the GMs doing anything with such a stupid report.

    That said, me? I'll stick with a group, generally, because I learned once that there are no bad groups in MMOs; there are only good groups and funny groups. And most of the time, a funny group will suit me just fine.
    Yes, that seebs.
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  3. #3
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    Leaving when you died in a non wipe situation does make you seem a bit whiney.

    Generally I stick around until I'm not having fun and it looks really hopeless. Since I find people with so many death penalities they are running naked funny, I often stick around quite a long time, at least until we wipe.

    I probably wouldn't have left when you did. What I would do is minimize my use of consumables, try to take a leadership roll to move things forward, and just keep going until success or wipe.
    Addicted to DDO since 2006
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  4. #4
    Community Member Dubbelklik's Avatar
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    I'd pretty much leave when you did. Third time's the charm.

    And as far as I know there's no rule against leaving a quest. You're not a hostage.
    I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just gonna ask 'em where they're going, and hook up with 'em later on.

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  5. #5
    Community Member ~HunterScout's Avatar
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    For me it's usually on a wipe but not always. I have for sure been in groups where there are a couple of us left but alone against what remains are obviously either going to follow the and make it a wipe or take forever.

    Usually those groups recall, reset and retry. Occasionally I have been in groups where I could just tell that it's not going to happen unless I can more or less pull off a solo run with a handicap roughly equivalent to constant Orange to Red dungeon alert. In those cases I have thanked them for the attempt and moved on or simply pulled the "guildies calling" card if I thought the people I was running with would give me grief.

    Generally a group who consistently pulls aggro they can't handle and then blames the healer is one that I would pull the "Guildies Calling" card on.

    On the whole though I don't see a reason why handling the situation as described above would be "bad".

    That said if you are leaving on your first death, in particular if you performed a required role, where the remainder of the group was handling the room and had a reasonable chance of getting you up I would consider that some what poor form.

  6. #6
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Reported for abandoning a quest? lol

    I remember when I first started playing I abandoned a quest because I didn't know any better. The leader sent me a nasty tell exclaiming that she was going to spread my name to everyone she knew and no one would even play with me again. I tried to respond to her tell that I was sorry, new, and didn't know any better. But she had already squelched me.

    I'm still playing the same toon and her curse has never manifested itself in any way over the years. I don't think you have much to worry about.

    As far as when to abandon? It depends on so many factors, even my daily mood. Most times, I'm pretty patient and have nursed a few noob groups to completion. But some days, you just don't want to fool with it. For example, I have a low level quest that's a favorite of mine.. I really like it. So any time I play a new toon or a TR, I look forward to playing it. I posted an LFM, several folks joined up, all were melees, (I think mine was a bard life) so I figured a healer would be a good fill for the last slot. I told the group as much, and then started looking for guildies or friends that might be available. After a few minutes, I found someone and we headed for the quest. Not only had these people entered, they were quite a ways through this quest that I had been so looking forward to. I dropped right then and there after telling them I thought it was very rude to start a quest without the leader, or at least telling the leader. (It was listed as a no zerg quest, btw) So yeah, that time I had no patience. But for people that are genuinely trying, are laid back, and are capable of doing something other than facerolling to their doom over and over, I'll generally stick it out.

    But there are lots and lots of variables, not the least of which is how much time I have to play.

  7. #7
    Community Member ~Glimrac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?
    Usually I'll stick it out, even after a complete party wipe (or two). I enjoy challenges, when things go pear-shaped, and new experiences. That said, if things look truly hopeless (hopeless being, for me, more of a gut feeling or intuitive thing rather than a clear-cut set of indicators) I'll just say something like "Sorry folks, I'm just too frustrated. I need a break. Good luck with the rest."

    (I won't tell you the fun story of the EE Battle of Eveningstar I joined last night, but it was fun, and we persisted for quite a while, even though all of us knew it was pretty hopeless. Cheers guys!)

    Glimrac

  8. #8

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    My tolerance for bad groups is high. My tolerance for bad people is low. I'd have left as soon as the name calling and blame spreading started.

  9. #9
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    Major alarm bells would have been ringing after the first room. If they didn't learn the lesson from there, then you're not obliged to waste the rest of your questing time carrying their stones through a quest. You can be new to a quest or you can be a bit stupid and get away with it. If you're both then it's a recipe for disaster.

    When they repeated the stupidity in the second room, I'd have left them right there.

    You lasted longer than I would have.

    Leaving a shower of muppets to their doom wasn't a reportable offence last I checked, to even suggest it is just rings another one of those avoid-in-future bells.

  10. #10
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    I have no problem with leaving a group of people who arent playing like a group. I think your only mistake is you should have said something frank but polite as you were leaving, something like "Sorry, you guys seem determined to zerg no matter what and I dont enjoy that, so I'll just leave you to it, good luck."

    It does them no good if they dont realize they're losing group members because of their actions...your verbal warning clearly didnt set in, they werent listening, so you need to reinforce with consequences

  11. #11
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    Dear OP:

    It is more a question of How rather than When. You drop group When you think that you'd rather do something else. Each person and situation is different, but I think ultimately that's the When Issue.

    How is what I think you're really after, if I may presume as much to rephrase, I think you're question is "How can I drop a group when I want to do other things in a way that is likely to be accepted by the other members of that group and the community at large.?"

    Personally I go with honesty, which usually is some form of:

    1. "Sorry guys, appreciate the effort, but I just don't think we're going to be able to complete this in the time I have, so I'm gonna drop."

    2. "Hate to do it, but I've got to go deal with...."

    There are tons of reasons to drop group, my personal worst was when it took me 45 minutes to realize that not only was I healing the entire party, but leading the kill count and "detecting" all of the traps by leading from the front.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23-A View Post
    My tolerance for bad groups is high. My tolerance for bad people is low. I'd have left as soon as the name calling and blame spreading started.
    Agreed, but I don't know if I'd have left right away. I'm a bit too stubborn, but most deff I would have been making notes of character and guild.

    It is one thing to fight against insurmountable odds, but another to fight insurmountable odds with a wild grin on your face. I tend to enjoy the unexpected challenges rather than knowing something is going to be very challenging. More satisfaction I guess in beating the unknown vs. knowing how difficult it may be and just doing it to see if I can.

  13. #13
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    At what point in a quest do you "call it" as either being hopeless to think you can complete, or that it will take so long and so many resources to complete (if you even can) that it just isn't worth it?
    Right after I join a quest. Bada-BING!
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
    Nerf Happiness

  14. #14
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    It's funny how these work, a lot of times you have a feeling, and I suppose a lot of players have zero interest in sticking it out to find out once they have the voice in their head "this might not go well" or even "these guys are a bunch of tards"; but IMO and experience no matter how savvy and experienced you are, you're as likely to be wrong about that feeling as you are to be right. Some will claim they always nail it, and maybe a few of you can always tell 100% if it's going to be a wipe or not, more probably though there's some of what they call "selection bias" there, and you aren't recalling that feeling you had at the start, when you're looking at the XP total and loot you just got from the completion that happened despite your "foreboding". I usually stick till the wipe, even when I suspect at the first encounter that it's going to happen. A lot of times this will be a decent group even just maybe not the right mix for that quest, and you can tell the end fight will be a 50/50 thing because of say; not enough DR breaking, or no evasion to make something easier.

    To be perfectly honest I've left at least a couple times, at the first sign at that first doorway the OP described (because that describes pretty much every rough encounter the game has to offer doesn't it?). I usually make up an excuse and wish them gl without any drama, if they resent me for leaving oh well. I've also stayed past the wipe and used a Cake to save the day (did this once in a Crucible where I died in the swim chest room only because I forgot to hit my DOS stance after getting my armor back on (back when DOS was -50% movement and so turned off and back on regularly for example to make the swim) . I've used approximately 4 cakes over the years so I feel no shame in this. Sometimes you have the time and inclination to "see where it goes" and occasionally you've already had a bad day IRL or the first two quests you tried were a mess and you don't want any more But also some times I'm up for the challenge and that first room where 4 people died is my que to take over and lead.

  15. #15
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    You weren't rude.

    But I typically do not quit. I go the distance.
    (in fact, this is usually when I have the most fun. )

    Remember, just becasue THEY play bad, does no tmean that YOU have to follow them.

    I would hang back... let them die. Then go slow myself.
    Single pull. Sneak in grab stones.. rex... etc.

    But do what I could to keep myself alive.

    Don't fall into the trap of letting someone else get you killed.

    Yeah, I know... easier said than done.. doesn't always work.... but try.

    Like I said, I find it great fun when everyone else is stupid. :-)
    Nothing like a bunch of soulstones to watch me suceed against the same army that just killed them... because I used tactics and play smart.

    It is very rare that other people don't give up from getting tired of dying.. before I give up from watching them die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigh_Lint View Post
    1. "Sorry guys, appreciate the effort, but I just don't think we're going to be able to complete this in the time I have, so I'm gonna drop."
    First, let me say I agree with you. The question is never really when, as that answer is easy: never, really. Unless you are in a failed raid, dungeon scaling makes it completely unnecessary to ever leave a group before completion. Maybe if you are the last person standing and everyone else has left... but then no one else but you cares what you do.

    Which explains why your first option is NEVER an appropriate statement. If YOU are leaving it is most likely because of your own faults and inabilities (or you are raging because you died). The only other option is that you realized you are playing with people who have completely incompatible objectives, in which case this statement is false in a useless (and inciteful) manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigh_Lint View Post
    2. "Hate to do it, but I've got to go deal with...."
    Yes. Exactly. This is what you do. If you need to leave due to real life issues, well then this is the truth. If you need to leave because of playstyle issues, this is the undisproveable statement that generates the least amount of ire.

    If you need to leave because you utterly suck, then don't. I've had multiple raids fail not because of good players leaving, but because the nuissances (who were dying repeatedly) left which in turn made the mediocre players leave, which in turn made good players have to make a semi-tough choice that is sometimes made wrongly. It then cascades from there. If you are stinking it up, put on a fake smile and ride it through. Other people may be having fun.

  17. #17
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    This is the primary reason to have a hide out account. You can log out, log into the other account and it looks like you just disconnected and are having issues and they'll just boot you for taking too long. Then if you get bent, you dont have to be rude. You can just blame it on anything ISP or PC related. Or even blame it on Turbine by saying you've had issues since X update.


    Seriously tho, Unless you are a healer in the group, you can generally say, *that's it for me. We aren't gonna complete.* and then you can add in *recall retry?* or *And it's getting close to a guild raid so I gotta go* depending on how bad it is.

    It's only rude if you start blaming, name calling, telling people you're squelching them or leaving without the aforementioned example of saying SOMEthing. But that's just my take. And you did nothing wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I then received a series of tells from one of the party members, calling me names and threatening to report me for "abandoning quests."
    ?
    To this kind of (explative) I reply with "PLEASE report me. I've copied your tell and will counter with harassment. Welcome to my squelch list"
    Last edited by Grumpycat; 05-10-2013 at 08:01 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member ~Necronomican's Avatar
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    You by no means did anything wrong, and given the same situation I would have possibly done the same thing. The question remains are they newb players, or are one or more TR's? There are plenty of absent minded players that can easily ruin any quest, and not to mention fun for you. I have very low tollerance for players that set out to ruin a quest run do to stupidity, or any other reason for that matter. As for the truly new and still learning to play I can deal with, but only to a certain point when they've played the game long enough to know the basics and still can't even perform that function. All players are new to something at one point in their game life, and for those who don't make use of their time to learn will be the most likely to ruin any and/or all quest runs for you as well. Being polite when leaving is fine, but when you have too many rotten apples in a group they don't deserve the courtesy. Playing smart and being aware of the player base, for which you are pugging with will help make future calls as to ditch them or leave peacefully. And further helps in deciding to stick it out with them.

  19. #19
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    To be honest...

    I had a Shroud run where I had used 2/3 of my mana and still a lot of deaths...

    I let them all die except for the ones that were not taking crazy amounts of damage... one fighter one paladin maybe?

    Finished the final fight with them... THEN raised everyone.

    ***

    It seemed like I got more hate from that then from just recalling and leaving.

    ***

    The unfortunate thing is, there is always one or two other victims in the group... and I hate bailing on THEM. So I usually stick it out... but stop using all my resources on stupid. I have even had to tell some mad players...I took maximize and empower...did not have a feat left for heal-stupid, sorry.

    ***

    I do not fault anyone for leaving, ever. And definitely don't fault you for leaving in that situation.

    ***

    I suppose the biggest risk is - those players may not group with you any more... saves room on your squelch list I guess.
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  20. #20
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah179 View Post
    To be honest...

    I had a Shroud run where I had used 2/3 of my mana and still a lot of deaths...

    I let them all die except for the ones that were not taking crazy amounts of damage... one fighter one paladin maybe?

    Finished the final fight with them... THEN raised everyone.

    ***

    It seemed like I got more hate from that then from just recalling and leaving.

    ***

    The unfortunate thing is, there is always one or two other victims in the group... and I hate bailing on THEM. So I usually stick it out... but stop using all my resources on stupid. I have even had to tell some mad players...I took maximize and empower...did not have a feat left for heal-stupid, sorry.

    ***

    I do not fault anyone for leaving, ever. And definitely don't fault you for leaving in that situation.

    ***

    I suppose the biggest risk is - those players may not group with you any more... saves room on your squelch list I guess.
    If Im running a ToD and some one dies in the end fight, they stay dead. Especially if they have shown thru the rest of the quest that they will just die again. I have had too many runs where you had to beat Harry down 3-6 times due to deaths. It's not rude. It's sensible play. And if they complain I tell them why. If they still complain, they dont get to join next time. And that is on all my toons. I even apply that to me. If I die in there, I dont expect to be raised. (I say if cuz I haven't died in there in forever but the second I say I never do... I will. Blasted Karma.)

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