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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterScout View Post
    on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.
    So why would someone want to be in a quest with you when they could have run the quest without you and gotten the flawless bonus? That is the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by HunterScout View Post
    Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.
    The point that people are better off not having you in the party? Yes, I agree, proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by HunterScout View Post
    It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.
    Skilled players have enough HP to compensate for randomness.

  2. #42
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterScout View Post
    Just figured I would chime in here. I played a group that specifically built for low HP.

    They are all either wizards or sorcs.

    2 levels of monk and rest either wizard or sorc.

    Built with Con=6 in wind stance with Bloodrage Symbionts equipped. (yes we actually farmed for them)

    Additionally we added rules to our play on these toons. No False Life, no CON items, no toughness.

    Here is one of the toons if you want to take a look Bugby

    We started at 1st and are 8th level running with NO hires 3 toons and hit level 8 running elite streaks and on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.

    Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.

    It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.
    None of this is really relevant to this thread because:

    A) You were in a static group where everyone was doing this.

    2: You're being purposefully ridiculous to make a point, while being a very experienced player most likely with all the locations of the monsters and traps memorized for each dungeon.

    Adventure is not going boldly forward perfectly equipped, knowledgeable, and guaranteed no surprises. Adventure is going forth poorly equipped into the unknown, without any idea what might happen.

    Your exercise only proves that with time and effort, the game can be mastered and played by a marshmallow with legs. If you find that fun, more power to you, but it doesn't mean anything. It's just an excuse to be silly and have fun. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

  3. #43
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    I have as many hp's as I need for what I'm running. Oftentimes I'll be selling out for dps and will be 100-150 hp's lower than my max while zerg-tr leveling because the quest doesn't call for that much health. I'll do things like swap out a GFL or hp belt for a tactics boost from spare hand for instance. Or on one life I was swapping out a hp necklace for improved deception from Golden Guile.

    There's a certain number of hp's needed to ensure you don't die. That amount varies based on group composition, quest, difficulty, and class/abilities of the toon. Anything beyond that level of hp's is just showing off. If I can get a faster completion by running a level 18 quest at 350hp's rather than at 550hp's then that's what I'll do. As long as I'm not in danger of dying by doing so it just makes sense.
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  4. #44
    Community Member ~HunterScout's Avatar
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    Well lets start off with not sure why you are sounding so hostile. I am not trying to start a fight just show that HP of 150 isn't "required" and that HP aren't the end all and be all of measuring sticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by adfsdasdaf View Post
    So why would someone want to be in a quest with you when they could have run the quest without you and gotten the flawless bonus? That is the point.
    To this point you will note that I said I play in a group not a PUG with these HP. We don't run with other random players though having said that if I swap into Earth stance and change out some gear is am breaking 100 hp. I have run exactly 2 quests with Pugs on this toon geared as such (to catch up on XP for a session I missed). I completed both those runs with no deaths, 1 was flawless and another was a Tear of Dhakaan run on elite with all opts and there were 2 or 3 deaths, none of them mine.

    So from that perspective even a Con dumped elf arcane with "normal" gear is going to do fine. They don't need 200 hp, 100 with a good player will do just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by adfsdasdaf View Post
    The point that people are better off not having you in the party? Yes, I agree, proven.
    I see you missed the point the point is that low HP, even absurdly low HP doesn't mean that they cant' complete or contribute. It's not the end all and be all measuring stick it used to be. And for the record I haven't had a group dump me in or after quest nor have I had anyone berate me for being a drag on the quest performance even on these purposefully gimped toons.

    Quote Originally Posted by adfsdasdaf View Post
    Skilled players have enough HP to compensate for randomness.
    I don't disagree, and the linked toon is certainly not how i normally build a toon for sure but the other side of that sword is that for many TR players they also ensure that they have enough skill to compensate for randomness. They can afford to sacrifice some HP, sometimes a fair bit of HP depending on the role/toon for greater effectiveness.

    Sorry if somehow you took what I posted as a personal attack or something, it was NOT intended as such at all. Text isn't always the best medium for discussion. If I hurt your feelings or offended you in some way I sincerely apologize.

    The gimp I linked to was simply put up as a worst case scenario where HP was purposefully nuked and with 2 guildies (both skilled players as well) we were able to eliminate HP entirely and still complete, in fact the vast majority of our quest runs completed with no deaths and we have only ever had 1 party wipe. I certainly would not recommend anyone build such a toon, nor would such a toon be able to make it to end game (though we want to try )

    My point is, at it's core, that the best players are able to build for surviveability with a solid balance of HP, gear, feat/enhancement/skill selection and player knowledge and skill. Using just one aspect of that built to measure the whole will not always give you a good or even remotely accurate picture of what they are capable of.
    Last edited by HunterScout; 05-11-2013 at 06:05 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    None of this is really relevant to this thread because:

    A) You were in a static group where everyone was doing this.

    2: You're being purposefully ridiculous to make a point, while being a very experienced player most likely with all the locations of the monsters and traps memorized for each dungeon.

    Adventure is not going boldly forward perfectly equipped, knowledgeable, and guaranteed no surprises. Adventure is going forth poorly equipped into the unknown, without any idea what might happen.

    Your exercise only proves that with time and effort, the game can be mastered and played by a marshmallow with legs. If you find that fun, more power to you, but it doesn't mean anything. It's just an excuse to be silly and have fun. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
    I think that it is, but only in illustration of the point that HP is not always a good measuring stick.

    For sure this group was built to simply see if it was possible, fully expecting that it will not be but why not try.

    And yes, though I wouldn't say we have everything memorized, we are skilled players and used to playing together and there aren't really any true surprises left. Because every encounter has the potential to be the final one, and occasionally pulls more aggro than we expected, it's one of the few ways we can get that true feeling of "adventure" you describe. Running any "normal" toon, much less twinked or optimized ones doesn't present any real challenge at all at this point for us. Well not until we short man EE stuff at any rate.

  6. #46
    Community Member ~HunterScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I have as many hp's as I need for what I'm running. Oftentimes I'll be selling out for dps and will be 100-150 hp's lower than my max while zerg-tr leveling because the quest doesn't call for that much health. I'll do things like swap out a GFL or hp belt for a tactics boost from spare hand for instance. Or on one life I was swapping out a hp necklace for improved deception from Golden Guile.

    There's a certain number of hp's needed to ensure you don't die. That amount varies based on group composition, quest, difficulty, and class/abilities of the toon. Anything beyond that level of hp's is just showing off. If I can get a faster completion by running a level 18 quest at 350hp's rather than at 550hp's then that's what I'll do. As long as I'm not in danger of dying by doing so it just makes sense.
    THIS would be a player who gets the point I am trying to illustrate.

  7. #47
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

    You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

    yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.

  8. #48
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    The answer is simple: because the TRs that know what they're doing won't bother running with you.
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  9. #49
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

    You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

    yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.
    ^^ has a point - I think the Key Word here is "Reasonable"

    HP should be seen as a buffer against death - Too little investment means you are a stone, too much investment will also be a stone as you do not have the ability to be ahead of your HP loss.

    The Key is balance.

    In my last life I joined a group at level 13 for Chains of Flames on Elite. I was immediately booted. I asked why politely and was informed that it was because I had less then 350 HP (Sorcerer Level 13 BTW). I thank them for their honesty, put up my own group for an Elite Chains of Flames - Got Troll tells from party leader that kicked me that I should be running it on Casual etc.

    My group completed the quest with 0 deaths and 4 of us had just over 200 HP, one had 350ish and a tank at 400+

    At level 14 the party leader joined one of my groups, where they mocked everyone for low HP, died 2x and killed 3 mobs in a level 14 Quest.

    Reasonable HP is important, get away from the extremes and you will be happier

  10. #50
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default Here you go then

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    While you technically have a point I've yet to see a low hp character actually do well or do more than kite in a circle trying to heal or screaming for heals. I would never recommend more than one toughness feat, or more than racial and if available class toughness enhancement level 2 as it takes away too much. Yet I've never built a toon where I'd have to sacrafice something important to take 14-16 con, you can take this much on any toon. Yet I find that I really do see tons of sorcs and wizards with half the hp I have or had on the same class with no greensteel, just basic con and false life items. I have no issue if someone wants to make a low hp gimp toon for a challenge but when you do so quests labeled byoh, zerg, elite, bravery bonus, really are not going to be a good match for you as you will probably not be contributing much other than scaling to that playstyle.

    edit*
    as far as blurry/ghostly
    you can put those items on any toon no matter low hp or high hp and a hp toon with blurry and ghostly is more survivable than a low hp toon with blurry ghostly. In fact I can't imagine recommending anyone not use those types of items.
    Before I got my last feat (8?) I had not taken toughness. I am out of my element playing artificer so was not 100% sure what was needed, and I don't rightly remember WHAT I took, though I think it was precision. I was routinely sitting, with 18-22 CON depending on buffs, at between 120 and 140 HP. I had yet to die.

    At level 8 (I think? I don't pay attention to when I get feats, coulda been at 9) I took toughness, got out my sirens ward set for the +4 CON, and am now sitting at 189 HP. I was all excited when I got such a nice boost, I would wait an extra second or two to lay down my turrets to gather even MORE mobs than I did before when I played it more safe and used tactics and choke points to survive. I still don't die very often, but when doing way above level content I have died a few times whereas I did not have that issue before.

    That's the argument I'm trying to make. For a lot of TRs (and no I have yet to use a stone of experience because I want to learn how to play each class on my way to completionist) you don't need as much, and when you don't have as much, it makes you think more and you have to pay attention to stuff more. That doesn't make me a lesser player; I know what I need and I know what I don't. Inevitably I will roll a 1 on disintegrate and bite it, or forget to have deathblock and deathward (which is so stupid that you need 2 things when they could easily be combined, but I digress) on and get higgity-hosed and end up a smelly spatter on a dungeon wall, but I can guarantee you it will happen less on this guy than it did on my 975 unbuffed HP standing fighter, because with that character I was always lulled into a false sense of security, that having that much HP would save me and it rarely did.

    I will always remember a response I got when I asked a similar question of someone posting a "Don't Die" run for some tougher content: Get more HPs. Well if that's the only way to make it through a quest, to bloat your HP up so high that you NEVER have to think, or learn tactics, or worry if 4 ghaele's come that you are gonna be mincemeat, then why even call this DDO? Why not make it a WoW expansion pack? Part of what makes this game better is that instead of bloating up my HP I can mitigate damage in other ways; I can have really high saves, I can just NOT BE THERE when the bad guy starts laying down acid rain and trying to do that kind of stuff... there is another way, Padawan.

    I am going to take a step back before this gets confrontational and concede that neither way is right, but I will stand by my statement that neither way is wrong, and just because you need 300 HP and all the best gear to make it through level 9 quests doesn't mean I need to. I have run through those quests a few times, so I feel like I have a good handle on what is needed, and truth be told I care little about artificer and just want to blast through this life so I can throw away all these dang rune arms and trapper gear to make way for my shuriken specialist dwarven pallybard...

    If I join your group with low HP and die, make fun of me. I'll be a good sport about it. But what's good for the goose is good for Joe Mawma, and when you die I WILL make fun of you in return. Sound fair?

    And LOL @ all the references to kiting, I kite sometimes because it's fun to do, and the skill may come in useful later. If I kite and then die, the aforementioned sentence about insulting me holds true, complete with reforming, kicking me from group and trying to sell my soul stone in trade chat. I have NEVER pulled so many bad guys that I have trouble though, and I would respond to that allegation that if I am pulling all the mobs aggro with my pew pew bow, maybe I'M not the problem? Hmm?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

    You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

    yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.
    I see you fell for the OPs troll post.

    According to him anyone at level 9 with 150 hp has "low hp". And 200 hp is "reasonable". He later amended it that 150 hp is "acceptable" (I guess even he realized what a moron he sounded like with 200 hp as a critieria). At level 9.

    He assumes that everyone should be gearing up for hp. So that they can break at least 150 hp. At level 9.

    Basically, the OP wanted to brag about his 300 hp at level 9. As if it's an important feature of any character at level 9.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I love the false argument presented by some people that low-HP isn't a bad thing.

    You sacrifice NOTHING in this game building for reasonable HP. 14-16 starting CON, basic items, done. You almost have to try to build a low HP toon.

    yeah, putting all level-ups into CON and all feats Toughness is a dumb but so is thinking your sub-300 HP toon belongs in elite Amrath.
    In some ways you're right, but in others you aren't. During most lives, I don't even take toughness till epic levels, or at all if I'm just going to TR at 20. At no point does that extra HP make my lives faster, while other feats do. And while I have gear for max HP at level, I'm not going to get around to putting it on right away. I will eventually.

    People aren't necessarily building for low HP. Some people really do find this game easy and don't waste the time to pull their HP gear out of the bank every two levels.

  13. #53
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    I don't worry about hps when I'm TRing... The lower levels are so easy it doesn't matter... I'm not bothering with a lot of twink gear before Greensteel... Level 11 is when my hps (and power in general) jumps up

    During my last TR, I jumped from 175 hps to 311 when I went from 10 to 11... Got my +6 CON stat item, +3 tome kicked in, 45 GS hp item, and Greater False Life item.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    During my last TR, I jumped from 175 hps to 311 when I went from 10 to 11... Got my +6 CON stat item, +3 tome kicked in, 45 GS hp item, and Greater False Life item.
    Yes, greensteel has always been a significant factor in HP totals, and it usually allowed people at mid to high levels to jump up in hit points while actually possessing better (and more important) stats in other areas. Which is why people may see a 50 point or so drop in TR hit points - because greensteel is not as useful at cap anymore, so for a given character chasing the greensteel grind may be something that is no longer important (to their playstyle... it never was to mine).

    As for the rest of the thread... as Enoach put it, if you have TOO MANY hit points, I'm going to call you being the FIRST to die. It usually works. Right after the last thread like this that I posted in, I had a stream of about 20 PUG groups where the first person to die, everytime, had the most hp in the group.

    But go ahead and keep the noob-announcing up. Some of us like to know when we are going to need to be carrying your soul stones. 1000 hp or so should do it.

  15. #55
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs.
    Strong players take the first 5 that want to join and finish the quest. Every. Time.

    What you describe above pushes weak players who think they are elite away from PUGs. And that's okay... we don't need weak players who think they are elite in PUGs.

    80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily.
    First you said under 200 was low, and under 150 was super low... Now 80 is the bar?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  16. #56
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default How did I miss this?

    Quote Originally Posted by fedrericko View Post
    If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.
    Wait, what?

    So, in order to group with good players I have to be MOAR AWSUM at the game? That means, by your very logic, that everyone who has run with a bad player is a bad player themselves, since the only way to play with "proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind" is to "up your game a bit".

    Enlightening...

    How does that work? I picture some guy working hard at killing stuff, maybe with a Rocky Montage playing in the background, rarely leaving his home...

    in the end, he sits back, sweat stains on the pits of his torn muscle sweater, and proclaims: "I've done it. I am finally good enough that only good players will join my PUGs"....annnnnd scene.

    Close?
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  17. #57
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    When HP becomes the measuring stick, getting the most HP possible becomes tool the pile ons will use to cover up virtual piking through non contribution.

    Ive seen this conversation go both ways:

    1. If you dont have as many HP as I have youre a noob who needs to learn the game.
    2. If you have more HP than I have and are calling me out for my HP total, you have no life and are basing your entire self esteem on how many HP your toon has in a video game.

    Ive heard many of the same people say both of those things in the same night of playing.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #58
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When HP becomes the measuring stick, getting the most HP possible becomes tool the pile ons will use to cover up virtual piking through non contribution.

    Ive seen this conversation go both ways:

    1. If you dont have as many HP as I have youre a noob who needs to learn the game.
    2. If you have more HP than I have and are calling me out for my HP total, you have no life and are basing your entire self esteem on how many HP your toon has in a video game.

    Ive heard many of the same people say both of those things in the same night of playing.
    /end of thread

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    I only need 1 hit point to be awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derkluge View Post
    I only need 1 hit point to be awesome.

    Well, I am not this uber, I need at least 3 con to be awesome.

    4 is too much for me, especially on my fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Codog View Post
    [*]Small evolutionary change that can be completed in shorter stretches of time is more readily achieveable for us than large _revolutionary_ change. Revolutionary change can be rather destabilizing from an engineering and balance perspective.

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