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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    Only when you don't need to be fully geared at level 9 will you understand "why."
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    Really?
    I thought you considered 150 hp to be "low" at level 9 (for what class who knows) and that "2/3 of a well-geared" person is what you expect, meaning 200 hp by level 9. Make up your mind, champ. Your trolling will be much smoother if you stick to one criteria.

  3. #23
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    First consideration is: Are they going for completionist/super completionist? If so, they're only worrying about getting to lv 20 so they can tr again and couldnt care less about HP or surviving end game.

    Next consideration: Do they have the gear to compensate for the lack of HP? If they're a TR, then chances are they do

    Third consideration: Is it any of YOUR business? No it isnt. I have friends with under 500 HP until they get into EDs. And they have gear, feat and enhancements that compensate for the lack of HP.

    The push for higher HP brought about gimp toons. If you make your toon right, you dont need thousands of HP.

  4. #24
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    For a veteran TR'er there is little challenge left in the game up till late levels even if running full bb except from a couple of twisted quests like In the flesh.

    That said, the other day my friend kicked a 240 hp rogue that had just joined a full bb elite Amrath chain run (ml: 19). He began sending tells to my friend, apparently letting him now "hp is worthless if you don't know what to do with it". He, however, seemed to prefer to stay with a 400hp lvl 19 sorc and a 850 hp level 21 fighter than teaming up with, say, a 200 hp sorc, a 280 hp favored soul, and a 320hp ranger, players who -like him- know really well "what to do with hp".

  5. #25
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedrericko View Post
    For a veteran TR'er there is little challenge left in the game up till late levels even if running full bb except from a couple of twisted quests like In the flesh.

    That said, the other day my friend kicked a 240 hp rogue that had just joined a full bb elite Amrath chain run (ml: 19). He began sending tells to my friend, apparently letting him now "hp is worthless if you don't know what to do with it". He, however, seemed to prefer to stay with a 400hp lvl 19 sorc and a 850 hp level 21 fighter than teaming up with, say, a 200 hp sorc, a 280 hp favored soul, and a 320hp ranger, players who -like him- know really well "what to do with hp".
    How do you know those players don't know what to do with HP? Sure, they could be terrible players who need a huge HP buffer to mitigate their stupidity, or they may be so insanely blurry/dodgy/incorporeal that 240 HP is all that's really needed, if the bad guys can only hit you 1 out of every 5 shots and you're letting the melees and caster grab aggro then you don't NEED a whole lot more than what he had. I'm NOT saying that was the case there. You or "your friend" (you) weren't comfortable with said rogue's HP and that's fine, I support that. But until you KNOW he is terrible, IMO, a chance can't hurt too much, can it?

    Looking forward to hitting up those quests with my sub 400 HP artificer and giggling like a schoolgirl over voice chat while I kill circles around 900 HP barb clowns.
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  6. #26
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    Default Low HP toons are played differently and usually less agressively

    Classic example low hp rangers kite even trash when they could do more dps by standing still and taking advatage of point blank. Same thing with low hp casters always running in circles. Go with a group o f low hp toons and you see a circus of kiting characters as compared to higher hp toons who can fight more efficiently.

    Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly. also dying. low hp die all the time. I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs. In a group that doesnt always watch your back and doesnt have a perfect healer or no healer, hp matters more.

    Also more hp lets you deal with lag which happens. Rolling 1 on a save happens too. For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs. 80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily. I really dont want the only pug quests at low elve to be teh necro quest and xorian where you need 4 peopl or lots of gold seals.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    Certainly having low hitpoint totals is ideal for many a piking strategy. It doesn't get lower effort than riding around in someone else's backpack.

    On the other hand, you could be making your observations early where it really doesn't matter, much. Quite by accident I realized on my most recent TR that I was carrying around level 5 gear at level 10, because I didn't notice the lack.

    Some people just experiment on a TR, see for example, Zombie Fists (pale master monks), I TR'ed once to see if Armor Class was actually worth investing in (which got messed up around lvl 16 when the new Defense Chance rules came out). Some may want to add risk to their game play without having to deal with the hitpoint bloat of elite/Epic Elite and so compromise on handicapping themselves and play on hard difficulty.

    Bear in mind that there are also a large number of people who are now TR's by virtue of the Experience Stone leap 8-16 (or whatever it was). So some of these players might not have "learned" enough in their previous life, and/or their twink gear starts at 17 or 18.

  8. #28
    Community Member kinggartk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    I have a stable of 12 characters and onyl one if them is frequently TR'd. He rarely spend much time at level 20 or higher. I think I got him to 21 once. When TR'ing I spend so little time at a given level, I haven't bothered to get the best gear. In reality, I don't need uber high HP's to get to the next level. I have found, I can get through 20 lvls reasonably well with basic lootgen gear. I basically do just the minnimum gear wise to get through the TR life.

    Now, the rest of my toons (Many of which are lvl 22-25) are accumulating the best gear I can get and are really stonger than my TR guy. I farm for equipment and destinies with those guys, but the TR guy doesn't do much more than Farm for XP.

  9. #29
    Community Member ~Taeb's Avatar
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    Who cares. I don't only time i really care is if you're level 9 and have 60hp then yeah might be an issue. My only real issue is when a caster at 20 has 160hp buffed lol. arti level 21 with 200. So im just saying some people really need to get some help at higher levels. in a lot of epics you wont survive. the caster died 2 times in kings forest lol. So at higher levels its important for survival.

    At low levels 9-11 anything above 135 is decent. I do worry a little when people are lower because with some things can 1 shot you or will just not be enough to survive an encounter. I've also seen players with low hp just do a great job as well. new players will always die a lot. some of the vets not so much. That is when you tell who is new or not normally.

  10. #30
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default Ftfy

    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    Classic example low hp rangers kite even trash when they could do more dps by standing still and taking advatage of point blank . Same thing with low hp casters always running in circles. Go with a group o f low hp toons and you see a circus of kiting characters as compared to higher hp toons who can fight more efficiently.

    Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly because that's all I know how to do . also dying. low hp die all the time because that's what happens when I don't have a 1k HP buffer and a cleric standing behind me . I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs if people with low HP don't run in PUGs, how do all of these threads get started?. In a group that doesnt always watch your back and doesnt have a perfect healer or no healer, hp matters more.

    Also more hp lets you deal with lag which happens. Rolling 1 on a save happens too. For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs. 80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily. I really dont want the only pug quests at low elve to be teh necro quest and xorian where you need 4 peopl or lots of gold seals.
    What if the low HP players ARE the strong players, and don't need to PUG because instead of wasting a half hour wand whipping a barb back to full health they can just run through content alone much faster? That would lead to only those with high HP being AVAILABLE for PUGs, and as the player populace dumbs itself down more and more from lack of challenge due to having so much HP, you reach the logical conclusion: threads about how people with less than 300 HP at level 9 are gimp.

    I KNOW there are players with low HP that are terrible. I know that. I also know on my last few lives that WEREN'T Fighter or Barb I went with Dodge/ blurry and those took the place of stuff that would have historically gone to defense and more HP to withstand a beating.

    You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?

    Lag is a valid excuse, but let's face it if you have 500 HP and get hit with lag for 5 seconds or so and come back held, dazed, stunned, paralyzed, and Greater Commanded, it's not gonna matter much. LAG is the great equalizer, and I'm not going to build a character for lag because that would then imply I'm ok with Lag and I'm not.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    We have low HP because we do not need more.

    Better questions would be: why can't TRs at least use a puzzle-solver yet, if not solve freehand? why no res clickie? et cetera.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    Looking forward to hitting up those quests with my sub 400 HP artificer and giggling like a schoolgirl over voice chat while I kill circles around 900 HP barb clowns.
    I don't usually get laughs on other party members' performance, mainly because I hardly ever group with clowns (aforesaid rogue being an outstanding exception). If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly. also dying. low hp die all the time. I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs. .
    I DO pug, a lot.

    And none of what you are saying is true. I'm in zerg mode whenever I am at those lowbie levels. But was reasonable non-twinked HP, and a bit of PRR/Dodge plus basic resits (even 20resist pots you can buy easily) you can sail through content at the lowbie levels you are talking about without any trouble, well, if you know how to play the game.

    If you are a weak player who doesn't know the game well then I agree, you may need a few more HP. But seriously, what at L9 is even vaugely challenging to a good player?
    Addicted to DDO since 2006
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  14. #34
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by fedrericko View Post
    I don't usually get laughs on other party members' performance, mainly because I hardly ever group with clowns (aforesaid rogue being an outstanding exception). If, however, you do get to group with clowns often my advice is that you up your game a bit so that you finally get to play with proper barbarians or DPSers of any kind. Don't take my advice very seriously though; I'm on a very different wavelength than anyone who's looking forward to giggle on party chat over a killcount.
    I giggle because I snort laughing gas while playing, so has little to do with anything much. Kill count doesn't mean a ton, but you can tell who is contributing more to baddies dying overall. If a melee has 80 kills and a bard has 2 but the only reason the melee could kill the 80 bad guys was because they were fascinated and all sorts of enchanted, I would say the bard contributed more.

    No what I did here was make an overgeneralization using the same criteria the OP did, and because you agree with the OP you only see flaws in my logic. Nice job.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post
    What if the low HP players ARE the strong players, and don't need to PUG because instead of wasting a half hour wand whipping a barb back to full health they can just run through content alone much faster? That would lead to only those with high HP being AVAILABLE for PUGs, and as the player populace dumbs itself down more and more from lack of challenge due to having so much HP, you reach the logical conclusion: threads about how people with less than 300 HP at level 9 are gimp.

    I KNOW there are players with low HP that are terrible. I know that. I also know on my last few lives that WEREN'T Fighter or Barb I went with Dodge/ blurry and those took the place of stuff that would have historically gone to defense and more HP to withstand a beating.

    You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?

    Lag is a valid excuse, but let's face it if you have 500 HP and get hit with lag for 5 seconds or so and come back held, dazed, stunned, paralyzed, and Greater Commanded, it's not gonna matter much. LAG is the great equalizer, and I'm not going to build a character for lag because that would then imply I'm ok with Lag and I'm not.
    While you technically have a point I've yet to see a low hp character actually do well or do more than kite in a circle trying to heal or screaming for heals. I would never recommend more than one toughness feat, or more than racial and if available class toughness enhancement level 2 as it takes away too much. Yet I've never built a toon where I'd have to sacrafice something important to take 14-16 con, you can take this much on any toon. Yet I find that I really do see tons of sorcs and wizards with half the hp I have or had on the same class with no greensteel, just basic con and false life items. I have no issue if someone wants to make a low hp gimp toon for a challenge but when you do so quests labeled byoh, zerg, elite, bravery bonus, really are not going to be a good match for you as you will probably not be contributing much other than scaling to that playstyle.

    edit*
    as far as blurry/ghostly
    you can put those items on any toon no matter low hp or high hp and a hp toon with blurry and ghostly is more survivable than a low hp toon with blurry ghostly. In fact I can't imagine recommending anyone not use those types of items.
    Last edited by Charononus; 05-10-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #36
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llewndyn View Post

    You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?
    True sight. No more problems with hobgobs, but more importantly, once you start running into monsters with TS, displace, blur, ghostly, dusk, etc no longer help. And you're back to being a pinata.

    And this leads back into the primary discussion here; hit points are a valid buffer for a toon to survive when things don't go so well. Like getting held in acid rain. Happens fairly often for me... acid resist helps of course. But if the monsters are spamming hold monster, web, paralyzing, chains, sticky... whatever, you're going to take some damage. You can't move out of it, you can't heal, and you can't fight back to eliminate the threat. A ton of hp will help a lot in this situation and many other very similar.

    And although I'm aware many people playing this game are quite talented with both their hand/eye coordination and memory skills, there are many of us that are far from perfect. At least not every day. We make mistakes, we forget which button to push, sometimes we push the wrong button... several times even after we're dead. More hp gives more of a buffer for those mortals among us.

    That being said, I never refuse anyone from a group just because they have lowish hp. I've been taught some really interesting things from some of those toons. Whether by good or bad example, I find it interesting. And sometimes entertaining.

    And yes, going gonzo stupid mega hp can make a player lazy and complacent because even when they play poorly, they survive. Most folks are more tolerant of that method than playing well and dying anyway. So the "more is better" crowd is a larger bunch.

    There's also the tendency for humans brought up in a culture of marketing and over exposure to focus on a few important aspects of anything they're interested in, and if it can be reflected in numbers in a low=bad, high=good, ridiculous=respect format, even better because it requires less specific understanding and instead keeps it simple. (A great example of this is horsepower and family cars/trucks... for those who actually might be into racing and the technical aspects of horsepower, it's actually a pretty useless number on a fair number of vehicles. But that doesn't stop the horsepower wars! Even in the great minivan wars of the mid 90s, the top sellers were clamoring for higher hp numbers than the competition. Because it sells, not because it's important or even useful for those vehicles)

  17. #37
    Community Member ~HunterScout's Avatar
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    Just figured I would chime in here. I played a group that specifically built for low HP.

    They are all either wizards or sorcs.

    2 levels of monk and rest either wizard or sorc.

    Built with Con=6 in wind stance with Bloodrage Symbionts equipped. (yes we actually farmed for them)

    Additionally we added rules to our play on these toons. No False Life, no CON items, no toughness.

    Here is one of the toons if you want to take a look Bugby

    We started at 1st and are 8th level running with NO hires 3 toons and hit level 8 running elite streaks and on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.

    Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.

    It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.

  18. #38
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kruemeli View Post
    We have low HP because we do not need more.

    Better questions would be: why can't TRs at least use a puzzle-solver yet, if not solve freehand? why no res clickie? et cetera.
    Because some of us are idiots? There are a couple puzzles in the game that I have tried to solve using wiki, etc, and still didn't get them. And yes, it was a solo run just to figure out the dang puzzle.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Bottom line: Most TRs arent twinks anymore.

    TR used to be an endgame mechanic. Nowdays EDs are the endgame mechanic and the majority of players who TR do so to enjoy the game all over again.

    Many of the players who are TRing for endgame reasons and could care less about enjoying the entire game are Xp stoning from 8-19. The TRs you encounter at level 9-18 have a much higher chance of being untwinked, not build enthusiasts, nto gear enthusiasts, and not doing it for simply adding a +1 to tactics or spell pen.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overvaan View Post
    You can have 30 more hp from barbarian past lifes, and if you pick barb plife feat it counts as prereq for racial/class toughnes and gives straight away 20 hps. So Can add those 50 hps and youl be easily over 300. It isnt hard to have high hps if you got past lifes and gear, but there is no reason to bother with it as nothing on elite at lv 9 requires 300+ hps
    You do realize that instead of taking the barb pl feat you could simply take toughness and get more hp, right? And toughness also opens up racial/class toughness enhancements.

    I mean, it's not a huge difference, I just wonder why someone so obviously fixated on hp would throw away any hp?

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