Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?
First consideration is: Are they going for completionist/super completionist? If so, they're only worrying about getting to lv 20 so they can tr again and couldnt care less about HP or surviving end game.
Next consideration: Do they have the gear to compensate for the lack of HP? If they're a TR, then chances are they do
Third consideration: Is it any of YOUR business? No it isnt. I have friends with under 500 HP until they get into EDs. And they have gear, feat and enhancements that compensate for the lack of HP.
The push for higher HP brought about gimp toons. If you make your toon right, you dont need thousands of HP.
For a veteran TR'er there is little challenge left in the game up till late levels even if running full bb except from a couple of twisted quests like In the flesh.
That said, the other day my friend kicked a 240 hp rogue that had just joined a full bb elite Amrath chain run (ml: 19). He began sending tells to my friend, apparently letting him now "hp is worthless if you don't know what to do with it". He, however, seemed to prefer to stay with a 400hp lvl 19 sorc and a 850 hp level 21 fighter than teaming up with, say, a 200 hp sorc, a 280 hp favored soul, and a 320hp ranger, players who -like him- know really well "what to do with hp".
Looking forward to hitting up those quests with my sub 400 HP artificer and giggling like a schoolgirl over voice chat while I kill circles around 900 HP barb clowns.
Classic example low hp rangers kite even trash when they could do more dps by standing still and taking advatage of point blank. Same thing with low hp casters always running in circles. Go with a group o f low hp toons and you see a circus of kiting characters as compared to higher hp toons who can fight more efficiently.
Play what you want to play but low hp is low hp and it means running in circles, hiding in cornesrs and taking quests very slowly. also dying. low hp die all the time. I am so tired ot people who say low hp doesnt mater but dont run in pugs. In a group that doesnt always watch your back and doesnt have a perfect healer or no healer, hp matters more.
Also more hp lets you deal with lag which happens. Rolling 1 on a save happens too. For the sake of the game, I want an active pug scene but those who push the hp barely matters mindselt are really hurting tehepug scene because low hp toons push strong players away from pugs. 80 hp toons on level 9 content can die too easily. I really dont want the only pug quests at low elve to be teh necro quest and xorian where you need 4 peopl or lots of gold seals.
On the other hand, you could be making your observations early where it really doesn't matter, much. Quite by accident I realized on my most recent TR that I was carrying around level 5 gear at level 10, because I didn't notice the lack.
Some people just experiment on a TR, see for example, Zombie Fists (pale master monks), I TR'ed once to see if Armor Class was actually worth investing in (which got messed up around lvl 16 when the new Defense Chance rules came out). Some may want to add risk to their game play without having to deal with the hitpoint bloat of elite/Epic Elite and so compromise on handicapping themselves and play on hard difficulty.
Bear in mind that there are also a large number of people who are now TR's by virtue of the Experience Stone leap 8-16 (or whatever it was). So some of these players might not have "learned" enough in their previous life, and/or their twink gear starts at 17 or 18.
Now, the rest of my toons (Many of which are lvl 22-25) are accumulating the best gear I can get and are really stonger than my TR guy. I farm for equipment and destinies with those guys, but the TR guy doesn't do much more than Farm for XP.
Who cares. I don't only time i really care is if you're level 9 and have 60hp then yeah might be an issue. My only real issue is when a caster at 20 has 160hp buffed lol. arti level 21 with 200. So im just saying some people really need to get some help at higher levels. in a lot of epics you wont survive. the caster died 2 times in kings forest lol. So at higher levels its important for survival.
At low levels 9-11 anything above 135 is decent. I do worry a little when people are lower because with some things can 1 shot you or will just not be enough to survive an encounter. I've also seen players with low hp just do a great job as well. new players will always die a lot. some of the vets not so much. That is when you tell who is new or not normally.
I KNOW there are players with low HP that are terrible. I know that. I also know on my last few lives that WEREN'T Fighter or Barb I went with Dodge/ blurry and those took the place of stuff that would have historically gone to defense and more HP to withstand a beating.
You know how when you go into Gianthold and try to fight those jerk Hobgoblins that are displaced without ghost touch or whatever? You know how annoying it is that you can't lay a hand on them for 8 out of 10 hits? That's what a lot of these players are going for. If I can make it so that you have to work 3 times as hard to hit me, why should I then gimp something else to take nothing but toughness feats for HP I will never get below?
Lag is a valid excuse, but let's face it if you have 500 HP and get hit with lag for 5 seconds or so and come back held, dazed, stunned, paralyzed, and Greater Commanded, it's not gonna matter much. LAG is the great equalizer, and I'm not going to build a character for lag because that would then imply I'm ok with Lag and I'm not.
kruemeli - Orien. Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits
It's OK to be "merry":
And none of what you are saying is true. I'm in zerg mode whenever I am at those lowbie levels. But was reasonable non-twinked HP, and a bit of PRR/Dodge plus basic resits (even 20resist pots you can buy easily) you can sail through content at the lowbie levels you are talking about without any trouble, well, if you know how to play the game.
If you are a weak player who doesn't know the game well then I agree, you may need a few more HP. But seriously, what at L9 is even vaugely challenging to a good player?
Addicted to DDO since 2006
Officer of Chaos Knights and primary cause of -10%XP in guild runs
No what I did here was make an overgeneralization using the same criteria the OP did, and because you agree with the OP you only see flaws in my logic. Nice job.
as far as blurry/ghostly
you can put those items on any toon no matter low hp or high hp and a hp toon with blurry and ghostly is more survivable than a low hp toon with blurry ghostly. In fact I can't imagine recommending anyone not use those types of items.
Last edited by Charononus; 05-10-2013 at 01:14 PM.
And this leads back into the primary discussion here; hit points are a valid buffer for a toon to survive when things don't go so well. Like getting held in acid rain. Happens fairly often for me... acid resist helps of course. But if the monsters are spamming hold monster, web, paralyzing, chains, sticky... whatever, you're going to take some damage. You can't move out of it, you can't heal, and you can't fight back to eliminate the threat. A ton of hp will help a lot in this situation and many other very similar.
And although I'm aware many people playing this game are quite talented with both their hand/eye coordination and memory skills, there are many of us that are far from perfect. At least not every day. We make mistakes, we forget which button to push, sometimes we push the wrong button... several times even after we're dead. More hp gives more of a buffer for those mortals among us.
That being said, I never refuse anyone from a group just because they have lowish hp. I've been taught some really interesting things from some of those toons. Whether by good or bad example, I find it interesting. And sometimes entertaining.
And yes, going gonzo stupid mega hp can make a player lazy and complacent because even when they play poorly, they survive. Most folks are more tolerant of that method than playing well and dying anyway. So the "more is better" crowd is a larger bunch.
There's also the tendency for humans brought up in a culture of marketing and over exposure to focus on a few important aspects of anything they're interested in, and if it can be reflected in numbers in a low=bad, high=good, ridiculous=respect format, even better because it requires less specific understanding and instead keeps it simple. (A great example of this is horsepower and family cars/trucks... for those who actually might be into racing and the technical aspects of horsepower, it's actually a pretty useless number on a fair number of vehicles. But that doesn't stop the horsepower wars! Even in the great minivan wars of the mid 90s, the top sellers were clamoring for higher hp numbers than the competition. Because it sells, not because it's important or even useful for those vehicles)
Just figured I would chime in here. I played a group that specifically built for low HP.
They are all either wizards or sorcs.
2 levels of monk and rest either wizard or sorc.
Built with Con=6 in wind stance with Bloodrage Symbionts equipped. (yes we actually farmed for them)
Additionally we added rules to our play on these toons. No False Life, no CON items, no toughness.
Here is one of the toons if you want to take a look Bugby
We started at 1st and are 8th level running with NO hires 3 toons and hit level 8 running elite streaks and on the whole haven't have any real issues, some deaths for sure but when you can be one shotted that has to be expected.
Will we hit 20 with these toons and these rules, no we won't because with 4 hp per level and the -4 hp penalty we haven't seen HP gains and in 3 or 4 levels glances will start to be one-shots but the point it made I believe.
It's got a lot less to do with HP and a lot more to do with player skill really and TR's are more likely to possess that skill.
Bottom line: Most TRs arent twinks anymore.
TR used to be an endgame mechanic. Nowdays EDs are the endgame mechanic and the majority of players who TR do so to enjoy the game all over again.
Many of the players who are TRing for endgame reasons and could care less about enjoying the entire game are Xp stoning from 8-19. The TRs you encounter at level 9-18 have a much higher chance of being untwinked, not build enthusiasts, nto gear enthusiasts, and not doing it for simply adding a +1 to tactics or spell pen.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
I mean, it's not a huge difference, I just wonder why someone so obviously fixated on hp would throw away any hp?
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