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  1. #1
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    Default Why do TR's nowadays have such low hp

    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    Well I imagine its two reasons....

    1) At low levels, you dont really need it. Most builds can get through L9 content at-level with just what-have-you gear and a cleric hireling.

    2) I imagine a lot of them are just zerging the life....zerg to 8, stone to 18, join LFMs to 20, TR. There's no incentive to go out and earn good gear for such a strategy....heck, sometimes there's no incentive to go to the bank and pull out gear you already have, especially if you have guildies who'll just let you tag along and rush you.

    3) There is one advantage to dying easy - you can just ride in someone's pocket through a quest and, AFAIK, get XP for it; see above about guildy rushers. You could AFK it. Also, if you're dual-boxing, that has the obvious advantage of you not having to deal with two boxes at once, you can just pocket one character's stone, and use the other character to gain XP for both.

  3. #3
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    I shoot for 25 to 30 hp per level until the low teen levels. So by 10 I expect to have 300 or so hp on any class. This is accomplished through guild slots, one toughness feat / enhancements, and false life items mostly. It gets a bit dicier after that on non-melee classes, but my FVS is averaging 28 at level 15 thanks to the many extra toughness enhancements FVS get and green steel.
    Last edited by Kaytis; 05-09-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Here we go again.

    I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.

    I seriously don't get, nor do I understand why the HP's of any other player causes such angst in people they come to the forums to post about it. I have tried for years to understand why this bothers people so much, but I just cannot 'get it'.

    It just really seems to me that with all the threads about how the LFM's are down, fewer people on the servers, etc. etc. that there would be less focus on what people are doing wrong in regards to something as
    meaningless as HP's, most especially at low levels.

    The game was played, and beaten, and we excelled at it long before HP became the new MOAR!!! flavor.

    Frankly, as far as I am concerned, I could care less about that red bar, as long as the player has the skills they don't need the HP. I have seen 200 HP bard/sorc/wiz/clr that almost never need a heal, and I have seen 1k HP ftr/barb/fvs that are utterly nothing but an SP sponge for the heals.

    I just let other people worry about their own characters, and should they ask, I would offer advice based on what I see. If they are owning content with 200 hp, the they are apparently doing something right. If they aren't? Then I don't mind giving them a ride o the shrine and offering some tip if they would like.

    I just don't get why the subject bothers people so much it has to constantly come back as if the people with low HP are doing something wrong, when they are not.

    Plenty of time to catch up on HP in epic levels.

    damn. I rolled a 1 on my will save for this thread too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Codog View Post
    [*]Small evolutionary change that can be completed in shorter stretches of time is more readily achieveable for us than large _revolutionary_ change. Revolutionary change can be rather destabilizing from an engineering and balance perspective.

  5. #5
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.

    I seriously don't get, nor do I understand why the HP's of any other player causes such angst in people they come to the forums to post about it. I have tried for years to understand why this bothers people so much, but I just cannot 'get it'.

    It just really seems to me that with all the threads about how the LFM's are down, fewer people on the servers, etc. etc. that there would be less focus on what people are doing wrong in regards to something as
    meaningless as HP's, most especially at low levels.

    The game was played, and beaten, and we excelled at it long before HP became the new MOAR!!! flavor.

    Frankly, as far as I am concerned, I could care less about that red bar, as long as the player has the skills they don't need the HP. I have seen 200 HP bard/sorc/wiz/clr that almost never need a heal, and I have seen 1k HP ftr/barb/fvs that are utterly nothing but an SP sponge for the heals.

    I just let other people worry about their own characters, and should they ask, I would offer advice based on what I see. If they are owning content with 200 hp, the they are apparently doing something right. If they aren't? Then I don't mind giving them a ride o the shrine and offering some tip if they would like.

    I just don't get why the subject bothers people so much it has to constantly come back as if the people with low HP are doing something wrong, when they are not.

    Plenty of time to catch up on HP in epic levels.

    damn. I rolled a 1 on my will save for this thread too.
    It matters when they join a byoh zerg party and can't keep up or contribute without dying. Can they do normal/hard instead of elite, or not zerg, and make sure to have a divine? Yes, however when they join parties that do not have that playstyle is where the problem and the "rage" comes from. Personally I don't get it either because hp is easy to get even without gs.

  6. #6
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    Hit Points being 1/3 of your character at level 9 is very subjective. If you are a D4 character and have 3x the HP of a D10 then yes I could see your concern. However if you are a D12 character having 3x a D4 then I'm going to point out that that appears to be normal as your Base HP are already 3x more and Constitution and Gear and Buffs haven't even been factored in yet.

    Base HP for a Level 9
    108 HP - D12 ?Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
    90 HP - D10 ?Fighter?Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
    72 HP - D8 ?Monk?Ranger?Cleric?Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
    54 HP - D6 ?Artificer?Bard?Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
    36 HP - D4 ?Sorcerer?Wizard: 4 hit points

    Some other additional factors you might be seeing:
    1. A group of TRs that have not spent time getting Twink Gear - 1 to 20 and TR again with no time spent on gear
    2. An experimental build not focusing on HP
    3. Gear is Level 11+ - Many TRs take a huge jump starting at level 11 with Greensteel and some raid loot from previous lives.

    Even with HP there is no guarantee a person won't die - mistake or poorly timed missed saves. Obviously more HP helps buffer for errors but again is not the end all be all...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    LMAO

    That's an EPIC first post.

    Who "fully gears" at L9? Hell, until I hit GS I usually just run with whatever (the exceptions being main stat for that character and fort... I lhate crits)

    Its not like you have to be twinked out at L9 lol
    Addicted to DDO since 2006
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  8. #8
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    TR wings do not in any way suggest anything about the player, or character. TRing has become so easy that it seems like most everyone has done it at least once, often without actually getting any gear first, or even having much of a clue as to what they are doing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    I honestly don't get why people think that other players need to play the way the other players play.
    The environment requires certain play styles. If you aren't compensating for the environment, you are doing it wrong. Having ****** HP means traps or casters can one-shot you, or a bit of lag can do you in, which costs the group XP.

  10. #10
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    So you're saying 300hp at level 9 is (or should be) achievable for all characters?

    Let's look at a few examples (assuming 1 toughness feat, maximum available toughness enhancements, a GFL item, a con +6 item (ML 9 if restricted to race or with masterful craftsmanship) and a +2 con tome. GS and guild augment slots are left out, as players who don't have an item with an (old) large GA slot yet will likely never get one now, and GS accessories are ML 11*.

    328 hp: WF or dwarf barbarian, con 20 (26 with enhancements and tome), racial toughness 3, barbarian toughness 3

    243 hp: Horc fighter, con 18 (20 with tome), racial toughness 2, fighter toughness 3

    217 hp: WF or dwarf wizard or sorc, con 20 (24 with enhancements and tome), racial toughness 3

    207 hp: human or helf bard, con 18 (with +1 from human versatility 1 to unlock rt3, tome), racial toughness 3

    188 hp: halfling rogue, con 14 (16 with tome), racial toughness 2 (just ran that on a 2nd life char, and believe me, going quasi-str based for more dmg with high enough dex for imp. SA and decent int for skills doesn't leave a lot of points for con )

    [all hp totals can be increased by 18 with ship buffs and rage]

    Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

    Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else .




    *I think I've read somewhere that the ML of GS items used to be lower, but the first one I made more than 2 years ago was ML 11, and so were all I made after that

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    /golf clap

    Excellent first troll post OP.

    Ambiguous question which gives no relevant info for any actual discussion (at least what type of classes are you talking about with "low" hp at level 9) and allows you to brag about having 300 hp at level 9.

    Well, done. I give it a 7/10 Troll attempt. I await more useless threads from you.

    /golf clap

  12. #12
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    Default Please re-read my post

    "Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

    Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else ."

    Pls re-read main post. All I was concerned about was the large number of level 9 TR toons with less that 150 hp. 150 hp for a TR is a reasonable expectation. Im sorry if you dont think so but I certainly feel it is.

    As for reachign 300, barb past lives and past life feat makes hitting 290 plus quite doable.

  13. #13
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    Not everyone has 3 barb plifes and barb plife feat and is barb and is max cons dwarf with 2 more toughnes feats til lv 9 with tweak hp gear.
    Most people dont gather gear in first life anyways or in 2nd.

  14. #14
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    Please OP, tell us more about how awesome you are. That's always a winner.

    Also, help me out with a math problem I'm having here. Lets say we do a look at sources of HP by level 9, including in it gear, feats, constitution, and enhancements. I'm going to borrow from what someone else posted and add on:

    108 HP - D12 Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
    90 HP - D10 Fighter Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
    72 HP - D8 Monk Ranger Cleric Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
    54 HP - D6 Artificer Bard Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
    36 HP - D4 Sorcerer Wizard: 4 hit points

    HP from +6 con item: 27
    HP from +2 con tome: 9
    HP from 16 base con: 27
    HP from Greater False Life item: 30
    HP from Toughness: 11
    HP from Toughness Class Enhancements: 30 (0 if lacking)
    HP from Toughness Race Enhancements: 30 (20 if less race)

    Now I'm getting here a total of 272 for having a barbarian with full gear, tomes, enhancements, etc. Now I freely admit I suck at math, and Ive taken the liberty of ignoring guild augment slots. So, lets be honest, someone totally awesome would have used 300 HP as a baseline for level 9. And, well I should throw in another +9 for 18 constitution. That's getting us close to 300 at level 9. And I totally forgot to add in barbarian rages for a temporary boost to constitution. Of course, assuming I'm not an elven wizard and not a half-orc barbarian I'm estimating closer to 160 HP, totally unacceptable.

    So yes, why aren't more TR's playing fully geared out level 9 barbarians. My only answer is its a real pain to stop what you're doing and keep running to the bank until level 11 to get a marginal advantage in levels that really don't need it to get through half-asleep. Especially since the real question that needs to be answered really is, are the other TRs dying that often even with less HP. If not, then the follow-up might be, why do you need so many HP at level 9 just to survive?

  15. #15
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    Default Is 150 hp at level 9 too much to ask?

    Really?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maus154 View Post
    Please OP, tell us more about how awesome you are. That's always a winner.

    Also, help me out with a math problem I'm having here. Lets say we do a look at sources of HP by level 9, including in it gear, feats, constitution, and enhancements. I'm going to borrow from what someone else posted and add on:

    108 HP - D12 Barbarian: 12 hit points per Level
    90 HP - D10 Fighter Paladin: 10 hit points per Level
    72 HP - D8 Monk Ranger Cleric Favored Soul: 8 hit points per Level
    54 HP - D6 Artificer Bard Rogue: 6 hit points per Level
    36 HP - D4 Sorcerer Wizard: 4 hit points

    HP from +6 con item: 27
    HP from +2 con tome: 9
    HP from 16 base con: 27
    HP from Greater False Life item: 30
    HP from Toughness: 11
    HP from Toughness Class Enhancements: 30 (0 if lacking)
    HP from Toughness Race Enhancements: 30 (20 if less race)

    Now I'm getting here a total of 272 for having a barbarian with full gear, tomes, enhancements, etc. Now I freely admit I suck at math, and Ive taken the liberty of ignoring guild augment slots. So, lets be honest, someone totally awesome would have used 300 HP as a baseline for level 9. And, well I should throw in another +9 for 18 constitution. That's getting us close to 300 at level 9. And I totally forgot to add in barbarian rages for a temporary boost to constitution. Of course, assuming I'm not an elven wizard and not a half-orc barbarian I'm estimating closer to 160 HP, totally unacceptable.

    So yes, why aren't more TR's playing fully geared out level 9 barbarians. My only answer is its a real pain to stop what you're doing and keep running to the bank until level 11 to get a marginal advantage in levels that really don't need it to get through half-asleep. Especially since the real question that needs to be answered really is, are the other TRs dying that often even with less HP. If not, then the follow-up might be, why do you need so many HP at level 9 just to survive?
    You can have 30 more hp from barbarian past lifes, and if you pick barb plife feat it counts as prereq for racial/class toughnes and gives straight away 20 hps. So Can add those 50 hps and youl be easily over 300. It isnt hard to have high hps if you got past lifes and gear, but there is no reason to bother with it as nothing on elite at lv 9 requires 300+ hps
    Last edited by Overvaan; 05-09-2013 at 03:59 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    Really?
    Meh, when I did my completionist, I'd rarely have that on any given life at level 9. Wasn't a problem, not that hard to avoid taking damage. Heck, I've often grouped with people with twice my hp only to have them ding and me survive. HP is really a rather poor survival stat, its just the only obviously visible one.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    Because they are good players and don't need the HP?

    Check out some of Mr.Cows diaries and videos.

    Here's one of him doing shadow lord on a melee with 150 HP at level 9.

  19. #19
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Default Hmmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    "Even with ship buffs, rage and a large guild augment slot none but the first can have 300 hp at level 9.

    Of course if I'm missing something please enlighten me, I like hit points just like everyone else ."

    Pls re-read main post. All I was concerned about was the large number of level 9 TR toons with less that 150 hp. 150 hp for a TR is a reasonable expectation. Im sorry if you dont think so but I certainly feel it is.

    As for reachign 300, barb past lives and past life feat makes hitting 290 plus quite doable.
    .

    I am currently level 9, and have around 145 HP. I go through about 4 CSW potions a quest. I don't NEED the HPs. Most people who didn't OttoboTR or some such silliness know how to do more with less. That's what TRing used to mean - as in Aikido, you start overexaggerating everything, then hone it and hone it and hone it until you know EXACTLY what you need.

    And now everyone HAS to have a barbarian past life? Nice troll, Champ.

    I don't need 300 HP. I don't need 200 HP. I do great with 145 HP, and contribute a ton to groups (as an arti, I pass out buffs freely, I lay down turrets and snipe casters before the big bad melees get there, and I get traps). Out of the 10 TRs I've been through, I think only 4 had more than 500 HP at end game, and outside of the very tippity top elite players, most people would say I contributed well to a party.

    Don't be so shortsighted. Pay attention next time, they might be able to teach you something
    Ghallanda - LLEWNDYN 27 Necro Wiz (completionist) + other random uncared for players - Blackmoor Defenders
    Thelanis - Llewndyn (FVS), Brickadoom Jenkins (barb/ ftr)
    Quote Originally Posted by jandhaer View Post
    Nerf Happiness

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcalm3000 View Post
    I understand why new players have low hp . I recently TR'd and I am seeing more and more TR's with low hp. For me bad hp is 1/3 of the hp that I have, Low hp is half of my character so at level 9, that means 100 hp and 150 hp.

    Is there some secret advantage to dying often? I just dont understand why a person who chose to TR wouldnt have at least adequate hp, approx 2/3 of a fully geared person.
    If you haven't been reading the rest of the forums. The Old Way of massive HP and a nanny-bot-know-your-role isn't the endgame anymore. Epic Elites have people building for saves. People making their saves a lot more often, and with better PRR, AC, Tactics, and experience; take less damage. Thus, they require less hit points.

    PRR and Dodge are also 2 new abilities that take up gear slots to utilize, and utilizing them means you take less damage and need less HP. 16 Gear slots. 2 new features that mean you don't have all the same space for HP, nor do you need it.

    Rangers, Bards, Pallies, and Druids will favor having more PRR and Dodge over having more HP. Having ample hp and minimal heals is a failing recipe. Having consistent damage on moderate hp with moderate heals is a recipe for success.
    Last edited by Teenah; 05-09-2013 at 05:22 PM.

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