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  1. #21
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retbarrier View Post
    I'm too lazy to create builds, mostly of my builds are "pure blood". I do trust in the perfection of the simple builds:

    For DPS: half-orc Barb 20. (Serious, no build can match the DPS of a pure barbarian with epic gear)
    For CC: WF Wiz 20.
    For Healbot: Half-elf Cleric 20
    Simple like that.
    But if you want a handly toon:
    WF Artificer; human, drow or halfling rogue; any race bard.

    You can also do a massive damage with a Half-orc pure rogue str based (forget about int and the traps). You'll kick some ass with this one.
    You'll do more dps with a human pure str rogue than a horc Single target there currently is still no match for a pure well played and well built rogue, but for what we currently have a barb is seemingly unmatched for just raw power. I will however say a well built and well played Fighter will out-power a barb, solely based on the fact that they can out-resource/out-tactic/out-differentiate a pure barb.

  2. #22
    Community Member ~NewForumNameGoesHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcscoob View Post
    Umm plenty of builds are meaningful. Just watch Durnak play pure kensei or Tolunay play caster druid, etc.
    ^This. All of this. It's always annoyed me that people seem to think anything short of the very best, and the very optimal is useless/meaningless. My main is currently running a flavor build I designed for her, 11Ranger/6Monk/3Arti And while this uses the Manyshot/10Kstars+Fury of the Wild template it is very different from say "The Sithali", or your average 12Monk/6Ranger/2fighter(By far the most common AA build/Monkcher build on Argo for a long time now.)

    My build, while an AA/10KStars build which does awesome ranged damage, is also a WSS(Whirling Steel Strike) build, who capitalizes on a 15-20X3 Crit range while melee. This is a purely flavor option I wanted since I had a number of named/GS/crafted Longswords from my pure ranger life. While it doesn't do max DPS, it is an amazingly fun, self sufficient , and hard to kill build. I rarely die on her when I'm actually trying to play well, and not neglecting important key factors like actually wearing a Heavy Fort/PRR Item while tanking the Matron in EE Rusted Blades.

    All that aside, player skill> build any day of the week. I've seen lvl 25 drow sorcs with 300HP not die in EE GH because they play smart. I've also seen a 1,200HP/88STR fighter die in the first 3 seconds of an EH quest because they are stupid.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    I've watched plenty of these so called uber shiradi casters. I have a 3rd life Human Stalwart fighter with Nightmare, and 90% of the time I've matched their kill counts. I've attempted it too, see how fast I can clear an area solo while the rest of the party (headed off by a Shiradi Sorc spamming different force missiles) could clear a different area. I was less than a minute behind.

    No, they don't impress me. Their power is not nearly as great as they've been made out to be and no they don't do mindless amounts of damage on the weakest of spells.
    My point was in rebuttal to someone else implying that there really aren't any truly powerful builds, just powerful players. It's simply not true, Shiradi is a super powerful build because it exploits the 7% proc chance with cheap spammy spells. There's nothing about being a good player that makes the build powerful, it is 100% spray and pray.

    I'n not surprised you got more kills than a shiradi, but that doesn't make your build more powerful. The power of a shiradi is as I outlined above, it paralyzes mobs for 6 seconds, it's no save, and it's very efficient.

    Personally, I don't like Shiradi casters (even though I have several). I think it showcases just how bad the developers are at creating challenging and engaging content while maintaining balance. Furthermore, like so very many other things in the game, shiradi is a pressure relief valve for an entirely borked system. I think there'd be a lot more outrage from casters at how ineffective they are now with the massive upswing in mob HP and saves if it weren't for Shiradi giving them a way to play. Shiradi isn't a caster in my book, there's no SP management, there's no situational spell choice, there's no nuking capability, there's just spray and pray.

  4. #24
    Community Member ~Kalener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This isn't a hard game.

    With EDs ANYTHING can be good DPS unless you intentionally gimp it. All those jugerpyrenaexploiters are really just a self-healing platform with the majority off the offense coming from the ED.

    Any build that can heal itself is fine.
    Is it just me, or are all these various juggy/beast/whatever just melee divine wannabes with one major exception..... if you have a Cleric/FvS Icon everyone expects you to heal. If you have an Artie Icon (or anything else), you can primarily worry about yourself without upsetting everyone.

    It seems to me that in a vacuum, a split involving a cleric/fvs 12 through 18 plus your various monk/fighter/ranger/whatever would work as well or better. Solid buffs, great heals, usable DoT... And heck, the cleric's aura & bursts would still heal party members even if only used selfishly.

    Player expectations is what makes "Artie" seem ideal for this type of thing.

    The druid.... I really don't get. Druids get so many healing spells they're pretty much a healer. But for whatever reason, people only care how you play your clerics and arties. When I lead a pug and get squishy folks that need a healer, I'll leave druid (and bard, due to the mindset of a handful of bards) as allowed classes when looking for a healer. After getting one the other day, the fighter mentions he doesn't think we can do the quest because we have no healer.... We did, and we did.

    And, of course, a divine with an 18/2 class split is fine to folks as long as they worry about other people's redbars... and a divine with a 12/6/2 split.... "gimp".

    I wish you could declare your own icon, and the LFM interface uses them. Maybe DPS, Tank, Healer, Traps, CC, Other..... Then, when I had an urge to play my melee healer but didn't feel like being a primary healer, I could just switch my icon. Instead, I have to switch to my self-healing melee.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    Furthermore, with nerve venom, you are almost guaranteed to paralyze mobs for 6 secs with every cast.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    there's just spray and pray.
    These lines of thought are at odds. Either it is almost guaranteed, and can be relied on... or its luck based and a roller coaster ride.

    For me Shiradi is a lot of fun to play but its main features for me are mana efficiency and the reduced button set (it is more than 3-4, but less than 48). I have a few million options toons, but sometimes I want something simple enough to play that the user interface doesn't require active thought. I built my NovaSoul to meet that need, Shiradi gives me an arcane option. Shiradi is more mana efficient, but there are situations that NovaSoul is more survivable.

    FYI: NovaSoul is my con based FVS that is pretty similar to what you describe. I'm still amused that I was told it was gimp when I first posted it, and that I was missing the boat by twisting the ED offense you describe... and now the only thing between me and a "meaningful" build is the belief that I should have been CHA based Times change.

    What Shiradi, NovaSoul, Juggernaut all have in common is that they are all builds focused on maximizing an epic destiny. All of them are flexible enough to bring a solid (but not over the top amazing) heroic base build that happens to have great synergy with what is offered by one or more epic destinies.
    Last edited by Ancient; 05-09-2013 at 08:20 AM.

  6. #26
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    With mob HP and save inflation in EE GH... an arcane is either going to buff the melee and get carried, drink a million pots, or go shiradi.
    That's a load of nonsense. Prepped targets can still be insta-killed and there are some "cheap" ways to prep targets. You can still get about 30 kills/blue-bar and most of the content has enough shrines that you'll be fine as long as your group isn't terrible.

    No, you can't dominate like it's Inspired Quarter or EH but necros can still hold their own.

    I just don't play mine much because wail is broken, that's sucked a bunch of the fun out of stuff.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That's a load of nonsense. Prepped targets can still be insta-killed and there are some "cheap" ways to prep targets. You can still get about 30 kills/blue-bar and most of the content has enough shrines that you'll be fine as long as your group isn't terrible.

    No, you can't dominate like it's Inspired Quarter or EH but necros can still hold their own.

    I just don't play mine much because wail is broken, that's sucked a bunch of the fun out of stuff.
    30 kills per shrine? That's cute, almost makes it look useful. >_>

    In my experience, takes quite a bit of prepping to get a reliable kill...and that takes a LOT of SP (we're talking in excess of 100 SP per mob for prep + kill, often over 100 for prep ALONE).

    Edit: To address the OP, the most powerful builds in the current EE end-game are those that provide a solid survivable platform (able to take and recover from damage) that capitalizes on one of the good EDs to get the most benefit for epic levels (such as a shiradi caster, for example, or most any melee build with manyshot worked in).

    Honestly, though, the biggest measure is player skill - that's what makes a potentially good build into a build that solos EE.
    Last edited by dravael; 05-09-2013 at 09:02 AM.
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  8. #28
    Community Member ~NiborRis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    You'll do more dps with a human pure str rogue than a horc Single target there currently is still no match for a pure well played and well built rogue, but for what we currently have a barb is seemingly unmatched for just raw power.
    I'm certain my dex rogue does more dps than my human barbarian, that's for sure, and that's keeping my rogue in Shadowdancer for the 25% incorporeal and 6d6 sneak attack and other goodies.

    Just for reference - what exactly *is* good DPS, or even damage per hit, for a rogue in EE these days? I know going dex-based costs me some as all the various str buffs don't help, but I'm not sure how much I'm giving up.

  9. #29
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dravael View Post
    30 kills per shrine? That's cute, almost makes it look useful. >_>

    In my experience, takes quite a bit of prepping to get a reliable kill...and that takes a LOT of SP (we're talking in excess of 100 SP per mob for prep + kill, often over 100 for prep ALONE).
    Enervate scroll + Bestow curse will get most targets with with 56-57 necro DC, the strong ones do require a full energy-drain and some just ain't gonna die from necro. My PM has those DCs in draconic, mass-hold followed by energy burst+ plus Dragon breath is still effective for killing a bunch of mooks at the same time as well. If wail were working the Crushing Despair+CoD+Wail Combo would still be effective.

    I'm not talking about soloing though, for that it doesn't hold up as you just don't have the blue-bar needed. Soloing's more fun on a blitzing melee anyway, I tried the MM-spamming but the retardness of it didn't make up for the effectiveness.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Greetings

    I am surious which builds (or variations thereof) people currently see as meaningful from a pure power point of view (talking EE here). For the sake of the argument lets define that a build is meaningful is no other build can do better in all or almost all situations.
    Pure WF Sorc was,is and always will be a trully powerful build. Maybe eeGH is "challenging" from a DC-caster point of view but that doesnt mean that DC-casters cant cope with that..its called adopting with the situation and that means that despite the old playstyle where DCs were high enough so mobs couldn't save on 1% on any occasion with little to no effort from the players, now what has changed is the addiition of debuff spells to a casters spell arsenal.

    Besides that it all comes to the player and how well he knows his char and can cope with the situation

    -Cheers

  11. #31
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    My point was in rebuttal to someone else implying that there really aren't any truly powerful builds, just powerful players. It's simply not true, Shiradi is a super powerful build because it exploits the 7% proc chance with cheap spammy spells. There's nothing about being a good player that makes the build powerful, it is 100% spray and pray.

    I'n not surprised you got more kills than a shiradi, but that doesn't make your build more powerful. The power of a shiradi is as I outlined above, it paralyzes mobs for 6 seconds, it's no save, and it's very efficient.

    Personally, I don't like Shiradi casters (even though I have several). I think it showcases just how bad the developers are at creating challenging and engaging content while maintaining balance. Furthermore, like so very many other things in the game, shiradi is a pressure relief valve for an entirely borked system. I think there'd be a lot more outrage from casters at how ineffective they are now with the massive upswing in mob HP and saves if it weren't for Shiradi giving them a way to play. Shiradi isn't a caster in my book, there's no SP management, there's no situational spell choice, there's no nuking capability, there's just spray and pray.
    The weakness of the Shiradi MM spammer is also the 'spray and pray' aspect. Unlike the DC caster or nuker, you have no control over what you will get and when. It's the sheer unpredictability of it that can lead to hairy(but funny) situations, it can just as easily lead you into getting overwhelmed(due to aggro'ing everything with the AoE effects) and killed.

    It requires open areas and pretty much all the MM spells(especially the SLA's) to even use properly, as spamming any other meta'd spells will see your spell points go down fast. In fact, you can pretty much only use meta'd SLA's and unmeta'd MM spells to not blow your bar fishing for those procs. Remember that 7% is barely more than a 'vorpal' effect, which may or may not produce something situationally useful.

    These strengths and weaknesses should be the standard around which other viable builds are balanced, nerfing Shiradi would essentially nerf Wizards(especially WF), out of contention due to mob power creep rendering DC casting being so broken in recent EE's. If it wasn't for Shiradi, my Wizard would be unable to contribute in EE's, outside of blowing my entire bar nuking a couple of mobs and finishing out to shrine every 5 minutes.

  12. #32
    Community Member Asirin's Avatar
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    TL;DR: If you make a juggernaut and you suck, you will keep on sucking. If you know how to build your character, you can make anything seem OP and dominate content.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    By showing other viable builds the pressure should lower on each such build - the more builds are deemed "great" the better.
    Except you may have missed the point of many of the responses in this thread. In the first place, what you are asking for is non-determinable because everyone has their own criteria for power, and their own playstyle that dictates what they want to achieve. If I want to make a group and have it succeed at whatever we are doing, I bring my BARD (of all things). If I don't care if I have a group or not and want to get something done in a minimum of time, I bring a sorc.

    Assuming you can agree on a set of criteria for "power," you then have the problem that PLAYERS differ greatly in ability and power. For many, rangers are simply gimp, especially if they don't have at least 6 levels of monk (for monkcher status). Rangers may be more difficult to play as a player, but their power level in the hands of a skilled player is nothing to sneeze at. A group completely full of pure rangers has yet to be challenged by any quest or raid in the game.

    Lastly, you have the issue of group dynamics, which is more important than single-player class choices. As I said, a group full of rangers often makes the game look silly (and yes, even on Epic Elite). Likewise, a group of casters balanced with a few key support characters can make mincemeat of this pathetic game. The group dynamic is really the only factor worth studying, and until DDO fixes the issues involved there, even that isn't worth making a thread about.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Would you be able to outline the major points of the pure kensei and/or the caster druid and explain why those are competitive with shiradi/monkcher/juggernauts?
    I know this wasn't directed at me obliviously but Durnak was one of scoob's examples. Why a pure fighter is competitive with any of those 3?

    1. Compared to a juggernaut a pure fighter does more dps. Juggernauts are an all around good toon with their saves, evasion, ranged, melee, self heals. Well a fighter can self heal just fine with some twitch skills, some prr, and displacement. A fighter would do more ranged dps, more melee dps and can still get some decent saves. (Juggernaut's are obviously more self sufficient but most good players can self heal just fine)

    2. Anywhere you can blitz you beat the hell out of any shiradi. Which is any quest with a decent amount of trash mobs. Where you can't blitz you still have pretty good damage on the fighter.

    3. Refer back to 2. and replace shiradi with monkcher.

    Any quest where you can use blitz is THE example of where a self sufficient melee beats any of the 3 listed builds. Simply because in this case a pure fighter would be more dps, while still being able to maintain self heals. Talking the current endgame in gianthold 6 of the 9 quests are easy to keep up blitz. In the rest of the quests a pure fighter can still have manyshot, a manyshot that does more damage than a juggernaut. You can blitz the start of ee tor and switch to fury before dragons and even there your fury manyshots on the dragons/giants will be more than the juggernaut and shiradi.

    I'm not trying to knock those builds, they are nice, well thought out builds. All I'm trying to say is there aren't only 3 viable builds. Most builds can be comparable if a player is skilled and knows how to play their character.

    Like both Darforte and scoob said, most builds are meaningful and a lot of it is based on player skill.
    Last edited by moo_cow; 05-11-2013 at 12:51 AM. Reason: spelling is hard

  15. #35
    Community Member ~Arcscoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    I know this wasn't directed at me obliviously but Durnak was one of scoob's examples. Why a pure fighter is competitive with any of those 3?
    I must have missed this part. I thought he meant explain why my own build was competitive. For pure fighter, exactly what moo cow said, just plain higher DPS. For caster druid, you've got strong self heals, crowd control, and damage, all in one, where the crowd control bypasses many restrictions (no spell resistance check, TOR giants NOT immune unlike versus web, hold) and the damage includes a great persistent area of effect spell that arcanes do not have. All of this assumes that the player given this build is capable of using each and all of the tools he or she is provided to the absolute maximum effect.
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  16. #36
    Community Member ~quintino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Do you happen to have a link to the Beast build? I am not familiar with that and would like to know more.
    Here's the link to the Beast build if you still need it :P

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...g-an-xmen-name

    For me, it's not really about the build, you could play a jugg but don't know how to use the important mechanics of it, you'd still fail even fully geared. For me, it's really about how the person plays a toon.

    And yes I do agree with the ED's being the sources of these mentioned builds as there DPS.

  17. #37
    Community Member ChiefOgre777's Avatar
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    I was running EE Gianthold on the Orien Server about a week or so ago. There was this little first life pure rogue in the group who was out killing the wizard, monk, and barbarian in the group who were all TRs. I never liked rogues much before, but I wanted to try one after seeing that rogue go. CC with paralyzing weapons, sneaking around and assassinating. My view of rogues made a 180 after that EE run.

  18. #38
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefOgre777 View Post
    I was running EE Gianthold on the Orien Server about a week or so ago. There was this little first life pure rogue in the group who was out killing the wizard, monk, and barbarian in the group who were all TRs. I never liked rogues much before, but I wanted to try one after seeing that rogue go. CC with paralyzing weapons, sneaking around and assassinating. My view of rogues made a 180 after that EE run.
    Rogues got stupidly good around the time they removed Epic Ward. Top DPS, insta-kills, Evasion, traps, UMD..

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    These lines of thought are at odds.
    There is nothing contradictory about what I said. I said that you are virtually guaranteed to paralyze mobs with every cast and this is not only quite true, it in no way discounts the spray and pray nature of Shiradi casters. First and foremost, spray and pray is a colloquialism, and a quite well fitting one at that. It means to put as many randomly aimed rounds down range as possible and hope that you hit something. In the case of Shiradi casters, you are throwing as many spammy low damage spells as you can at the enemy and praying you get a few high damage Shiradi procs off of it.

    You attempted to apply the colloquialism I used out of context, even still, it also applies to what I said about paralyzing. I said you are virtually guaranteed to get a paralyzing proc, not you are absolutely guaranteed. So yes, you are spraying and praying when it comes to paralyzing as well, it's just that your prayers are answered more often in that regard.

    The only skill in being a Shiradi caster is in getting it setup properly, which again, addresses how powerful it is as a build.

  20. #40
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    There is nothing contradictory about what I said. I said that you are virtually guaranteed to paralyze mobs with every cast and this is not only quite true, it in no way discounts the spray and pray nature of Shiradi casters. First and foremost, spray and pray is a colloquialism, and a quite well fitting one at that. It means to put as many randomly aimed rounds down range as possible and hope that you hit something. In the case of Shiradi casters, you are throwing as many spammy low damage spells as you can at the enemy and praying you get a few high damage Shiradi procs off of it.

    You attempted to apply the colloquialism I used out of context, even still, it also applies to what I said about paralyzing. I said you are virtually guaranteed to get a paralyzing proc, not you are absolutely guaranteed. So yes, you are spraying and praying when it comes to paralyzing as well, it's just that your prayers are answered more often in that regard.

    The only skill in being a Shiradi caster is in getting it setup properly, which again, addresses how powerful it is as a build.

    You are naive if you don't think that smart players won't ALWAYS find ways and means of utterly destroying any content Turbine can possibly throw at them, in a game designed for fickle, lowest common denominator casuals.

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