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  1. #1
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    Default Which builds are currently meaningfull from a pure power point of view?

    Greetings

    I am surious which builds (or variations thereof) people currently see as meaningful from a pure power point of view (talking EE here). For the sake of the argument lets define that a build is meaningful is no other build can do better in all or almost all situations.

    WF Shiradi 18 Sorc / 2 Pal, 18 Wiz / 2 Rog or 18 Wiz / 2 Mnk come to mind as prime damage dealers with excellent surviveability and self-sufficiency. The version with / 2 rog can even handle traps and chests as well if that strikes your fancy. Possible downside is the unpredicability of their damage which can sometimes screw up fights where you have to kill stuff simultaneously or not kill something till later.

    Monkchers of various class combinations also spring to mind. Manyshot with Adrenaline makes for the most potent burst damage in the game to my knowledge. Running speed is high so they kite well. Cocoon and scrolls make for decent self-healing. Saves can be good but maybe not stellar - but killing stuff fast when it counts makes that less of an issue.

    WF Juggernauts are the melee flavor atm. I dont understand these well enough to entirely explain what it is they do exactly - but damage through ED is very high and self healing is good with Reconstruct.

    Thats the 3 builds I mostly see mentioned these days but hopefully other builds can compete by actually being better in certain situations. I am curious to hear about other such builds - not just builds that work well enough but builds that surpass the 3 above in certain quests, raids or single situations.

    None of the 3 heal others too well so I figured I would try to give my idea for a healing build that works well and by virtue of healing others well has something over the shiradi/monkcher/juggernaut.

    CHA based FvS in EA. Dumped Wis and no Spell Pen. High HP and SP as feats arent used on Spell. ED SLA for offense (Avenging Light, Divine Wrath and Energy Burst (all CHA based DC). Can even fit in Enlarge to make it easier to solo heal raids by being in range of everyone at once. This can be 20 FvS (capstone and more mana) or 18 FvS / 2 Pal (higher resists).

    I know about flavor builds and simply enjoying a particular class even though its not top of the heap atm and I definitely encourage playing such builds rather than only going for the current top dog build. I certainly also understand that often its player skill rather than build that matters the most. But I am still curious if its only really those 3 builds that dominate. It should would be sad if the optimal group from a pure power stand would only consist of 6 or 12 taking from as few as those 3 types of builds.

    Note, this isnt in any a call for a nerf of any types of builds. Infact, its the opposite. I hope to hear that other builds actually shine more than any of those builds mentioned in certain EE quests/raids.

  2. #2
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    The Beast is essentially a Juggernaut, except it's a fleshie version that uses heal (which is far more powerful) over recon, and has more potential aoe damage through body of the sun, and with Fatal Harrier tacked on top of Blitz it's actually kind of a cool concept. Been wanting to roll one up for a while, but I'm lazy. So far as much as I can tell, it's better than a Jugg in a party situation because you can heal anyone else in the party, and also because you can be any race you're limitations are reduced greatly. Disadvantages are simply you don't have trapping skills, and your scroll buffs don't last as long. Advantages are your buffs are better, and the potential for crowd control is better simply because the juggs have nothing like earthquake (when specced for it, which beasts are less likely to do). Then again, this just goes to show that Druids in general have the potential to be better simply because they are as close to a true hybrid melee/caster class we can achieve.

    Pyrene is the Paladin version of the Juggernaut (everything with manyshot seems to be a version of the Jugg anymore) which basically translates into it's just a lot harder to kill while doing just as much dps if not more. Benefits here is the raid really has to go to hell for you to die, and I mean REALLY has to go to hell.

    Shiradi Sorcs/Wizards/Fury Archers are more FOTM builds, though I can imagine the Fury archer won't be nerfed anywhere near as soon as the Shiradis, simply because of the long enough cooldown. You're playing in just as tactical of a manner with furyshot as you were with your manyshot in the first place.

    An alternative to the Shiradi archers I came up with a couple days ago is a 12 Wizard PM/6 Monk Ninja/2 Ranger Shiradicher build, where you were probably honestly an elf with dual manyshots and magic missiles, in wraith form with slayer arrows while the death auras gave you passive health regen. Honestly not anywhere near the best in terms of dps, but infinite arrows coupled with improved precise shot, some baby dots, magic missiles and all the stuff shiradi gives means it can just go for days on very little resources.

    Personally I just like having pure fighters and 18/2 Pally fighters. Manyshot doesn't interest me enough to make the other builds (besides the Beast) and all I really want to do is melee. Self healing is a bonus.
    Last edited by Nightmanis; 05-08-2013 at 06:25 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    The Beast is essentially a Juggernaut, except it's a fleshie version that uses heal (which is far more powerful) over recon, and has more potential aoe damage through body of the sun, and with Fatal Harrier tacked on top of Blitz it's actually kind of a cool concept. Been wanting to roll one up for a while, but I'm lazy.

    Pyrene is the Paladin version of the Juggernaut (everything with manyshot seems to be a version of the Jugg anymore) which basically translates into it's just a lot harder to kill while doing just as much dps.

    Personally I just like having pure fighters and 18/2 Pally fighters. Manyshot doesn't interest me enough to make the other builds (besides the Beast) and all I really want to do is melee. Self healing is a bonus.
    Do you happen to have a link to the Beast build? I am not familiar with that and would like to know more.

  4. #4
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Why do I get the feeling devs are going to read this thread as a "what to nerf next" checklist?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  5. #5
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Do you happen to have a link to the Beast build? I am not familiar with that and would like to know more.
    I would, but I can't find it anywhere. Got chewed up in the great forum slaughter. Someone will probably stop by with the layout after a while.

    As far as I can remember, it was a Horc 16 Druid/2 Monk/2 Ranger. A Fire Elemental, Fatal Harrier, Dreadnought Manyshot build with the Heal spell. All he did was cleave, but never had Improved Precise Shot (due to feat restrictions, but it's not like it's a 100% needed feat) so his manyshot was more of a ranged caster killer. Seemed like a great alternative to the Jugg, since it's not race restricted meaning with a Human version you can pull off more burst dps and better healing (and maybe IPS with that extra feat, who knows) while only losing trapping skills. The enhancements really were the simplest part, since the prestiges are either for the animal forms or for full on caster, meaning you just max the devotion stuff, the fire stuff (for body of the sun) and take fatal harrier.

    Really the only downfall seemed to be the all but an afterthought that trapping has become. Could even double as a backup backup healer with the right spells (thinking the regen spells, mostly)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    I would, but I can't find it anywhere. Got chewed up in the great forum slaughter. Someone will probably stop by with the layout after a while.

    As far as I can remember, it was a Horc 16 Druid/2 Monk/2 Ranger. A Fire Elemental, Fatal Harrier, Dreadnought Manyshot build with the Heal spell. All he did was cleave, but never had Improved Precise Shot (due to feat restrictions, but it's not like it's a 100% needed feat) so his manyshot was more of a ranged caster killer. Seemed like a great alternative to the Jugg, since it's not race restricted meaning with a Human version you can pull off more burst dps and better healing (and maybe IPS with that extra feat, who knows) while only losing trapping skills. The enhancements really were the simplest part, since the prestiges are either for the animal forms or for full on caster, meaning you just max the devotion stuff, the fire stuff (for body of the sun) and take fatal harrier.

    Really the only downfall seemed to be the all but an afterthought that trapping has become. Could even double as a backup backup healer with the right spells (thinking the regen spells, mostly)
    True heal is more powerfull but at the end of the day a jugg is better i think.
    Jugg doesnt have to slot heal amp, has more feats, better weapon choices with artie buffs and trapping skills.
    With the enhance revamp it seems that Fatal Harrier gets useless and you will have a hard time getting the same Spellpower.
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    This isn't a hard game.

    With EDs ANYTHING can be good DPS unless you intentionally gimp it. All those jugerpyrenaexploiters are really just a self-healing platform with the majority off the offense coming from the ED.

    Any build that can heal itself is fine.

  8. #8
    Community Member ~Lyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This isn't a hard game.

    With EDs ANYTHING can be good DPS unless you intentionally gimp it. All those jugerpyrenaexploiters are really just a self-healing platform with the majority off the offense coming from the ED.

    Any build that can heal itself is fine.
    ^ and Jugs are too fugly to play.

  9. #9
    Community Member ~Arcscoob's Avatar
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    Umm plenty of builds are meaningful. Just watch Durnak play pure kensei or Tolunay play caster druid, etc. The only reason discussion keeps revolving around a few builds is because they were publicized, and the players who played them are skilled. Following that you get masses of people copying them and because of sheer number everyone starts talking about how they need nerfing or whatever. The real space of meaningfully powerful builds is far bigger than just these flavor of the month builds.

    For example I have a WF FVS that does very well and has good group healing as you mentioned.
    Last edited by Arcscoob; 05-08-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Current party wise, anyone not a shiradi sorc / wizard is just "in the way".

    UH OHHHH Pandora's box opened O.O

  11. #11
    Community Member ~Robai's Avatar
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    Lol, nobody mentioned Tree?
    (why do you think it's going to be nerfed? )

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robai View Post
    Lol, nobody mentioned Tree?
    (why do you think it's going to be nerfed? )
    Because MajMal posted that it's a known issue that's going to be fixed in an upcoming update...

  13. #13
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    Most of the 'OMG UBER *** BBQ' builds around are simply judicious use of ED abilities. It's a lot more to do with the player than with the build to be honest. Most of the juggernauts on sarlona that I see in pugs are very poorly played for instance.

    - Any DPS build with manyshot can do insane burst dps with unbridled fury (which, incidentally, charges very fast when you're manyshooting), which makes them shine on short encounters that are spaced more than 5 minutes of each other.
    - Any player with good twitch skills playing a DPS toon with decent defenses and healing (even if it's just sf pots and heal scrolls), with proper party support - that is, people not TRYING to screw them out of their blitz - can be a beast blitzing on LD.
    - I'm not even going to mention primal twitchsploiting, since it's getting fixed Soon(TM).
    - Shiradi, on the other hand, is weird in that as long as you're decent at kiting, you can go a very long way - but that's always been true of self-healing casters anyway. You have no way of competing with furyshot or blitz DPS though, outside of the joy procs which are completely unreliable. Those who think shiradis demolish quests probably haven't seen a decent blitzer in action yet, I guess.

    TL;DR: If you make a juggernaut and you suck, you will keep on sucking. If you know how to build your character, you can make anything seem OP and dominate content.
    Last edited by DarkForte; 05-08-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcscoob View Post
    Umm plenty of builds are meaningful. Just watch Durnak play pure kensei or Tolunay play caster druid, etc. The only reason discussion keeps revolving around a few builds is because they were publicized, and the players who played them are skilled. Following that you get masses of people copying them and because of sheer number everyone starts talking about how they need nerfing or whatever. The real space of meaningfully powerful builds is far bigger than just these flavor of the month builds.

    For example I have a WF FVS that does very well and has good group healing as you mentioned.
    Thats the kind of reply I was hoping.

    Is your WF FvS CHA based and using the ED SLA I mentioned in the OP or have you built him differently?
    Would you be able to outline the major points of the pure kensei and/or the caster druid and explain why those are competitive with shiradi/monkcher/juggernauts?

    By showing other viable builds the pressure should lower on each such build - the more builds are deemed "great" the better.

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    Community Member Toro12's Avatar
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    IMHO
    When talking about builds anymore they are kind of moot after 20.
    It is all about the destiny(ies) anymore. Massive , massive power that over rules the base characters.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcscoob View Post
    Umm plenty of builds are meaningful. Just watch Durnak play pure kensei or Tolunay play caster druid, etc. The only reason discussion keeps revolving around a few builds is because they were publicized, and the players who played them are skilled.
    Not true at all, you might not have played and therefore do not fully understand how a Shiradi arcane works.

    Shiradi is designed around 7% procs. With a bow, even a repeating xbow, or most spells you simply aren't going to proc anything at all, most of the time. However, with spells like chain missles, force missles, ice storm, delayed blast fire ball and other multi-proc spammy spells you are almost guaranteed a proc, if not several, with every cast.

    Furthermore, with nerve venom, you are almost guaranteed to paralyze mobs for 6 secs with every cast.

    On top of that, there's absolutely no DC what so ever to worry about. None, nada, zilch, nicht.

    Finally, since the spells are merely a delivery platform for shiradi procs, you don't need to use any meta magic on them at all, therefore they are extremely cheap and many times more efficient than actual damaging spells. Your mileage will vary, but I'd say a shiradi is at least twice as mana efficient as a conventional damage spells.

    With mob HP and save inflation in EE GH... an arcane is either going to buff the melee and get carried, drink a million pots, or go shiradi.

  17. #17
    Community Member ~Arcscoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Thats the kind of reply I was hoping.

    Is your WF FvS CHA based and using the ED SLA I mentioned in the OP or have you built him differently?
    Would you be able to outline the major points of the pure kensei and/or the caster druid and explain why those are competitive with shiradi/monkcher/juggernauts?

    By showing other viable builds the pressure should lower on each such build - the more builds are deemed "great" the better.
    STR based. Details in my build thread. Fury ED. Competitive melee dps with juggernaut but instead of ranged burst and self-deadly trades that for ranged DoT, party heals, and party utility like energy drain and divine buffs.
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  18. #18
    Community Member ~Arcscoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    Not true at all, you might not have played and therefore do not fully understand how a Shiradi arcane works.

    Shiradi is designed around 7% procs. With a bow, even a repeating xbow, or most spells you simply aren't going to proc anything at all, most of the time. However, with spells like chain missles, force missles, ice storm, delayed blast fire ball and other multi-proc spammy spells you are almost guaranteed a proc, if not several, with every cast.

    Furthermore, with nerve venom, you are almost guaranteed to paralyze mobs for 6 secs with every cast.

    On top of that, there's absolutely no DC what so ever to worry about. None, nada, zilch, nicht.

    Finally, since the spells are merely a delivery platform for shiradi procs, you don't need to use any meta magic on them at all, therefore they are extremely cheap and many times more efficient than actual damaging spells. Your mileage will vary, but I'd say a shiradi is at least twice as mana efficient as a conventional damage spells.

    With mob HP and save inflation in EE GH... an arcane is either going to buff the melee and get carried, drink a million pots, or go shiradi.
    I am amazed you are insinuating this.. Not only do I have a shiradi and play with shiradi guildmates but I also clearly would have no place making the statement that I made if I had no knowledge of the mechanics. So thanks for the summary of the shiradi ED but my point was not about whether shiradi was good or not.
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  19. #19
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    I'm too lazy to create builds, mostly of my builds are "pure blood". I do trust in the perfection of the simple builds:

    For DPS: half-orc Barb 20. (Serious, no build can match the DPS of a pure barbarian with epic gear)
    For CC: WF Wiz 20.
    For Healbot: Half-elf Cleric 20
    Simple like that.
    But if you want a handly toon:
    WF Artificer; human, drow or halfling rogue; any race bard.

    You can also do a massive damage with a Half-orc pure rogue str based (forget about int and the traps). You'll kick some ass with this one.

  20. #20
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstryk View Post
    Not true at all, you might not have played and therefore do not fully understand how a Shiradi arcane works.

    Shiradi is designed around 7% procs. With a bow, even a repeating xbow, or most spells you simply aren't going to proc anything at all, most of the time. However, with spells like chain missles, force missles, ice storm, delayed blast fire ball and other multi-proc spammy spells you are almost guaranteed a proc, if not several, with every cast.

    Furthermore, with nerve venom, you are almost guaranteed to paralyze mobs for 6 secs with every cast.

    On top of that, there's absolutely no DC what so ever to worry about. None, nada, zilch, nicht.

    Finally, since the spells are merely a delivery platform for shiradi procs, you don't need to use any meta magic on them at all, therefore they are extremely cheap and many times more efficient than actual damaging spells. Your mileage will vary, but I'd say a shiradi is at least twice as mana efficient as a conventional damage spells.

    With mob HP and save inflation in EE GH... an arcane is either going to buff the melee and get carried, drink a million pots, or go shiradi.
    I've watched plenty of these so called uber shiradi casters. I have a 3rd life Human Stalwart fighter with Nightmare, and 90% of the time I've matched their kill counts. I've attempted it too, see how fast I can clear an area solo while the rest of the party (headed off by a Shiradi Sorc spamming different force missiles) could clear a different area. I was less than a minute behind.

    No, they don't impress me. Their power is not nearly as great as they've been made out to be and no they don't do mindless amounts of damage on the weakest of spells.

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