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  1. #21
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    The path is not designed for min-maxing towards ultimate DPS, and should not be. There are intentional concessions in the design of the path for making sure new players are OK and don't hurt themselves.

    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    We fully expect veteran players to be entirely uninterested in taking the path and to produce stronger builds (whether focused on Greatswords, THF, pure Paladin, or trying out some Juggernaut variant). We don't expect veterans to produce *safer* builds, which is important for the path to cover.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.

    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path is not designed for min-maxing towards ultimate DPS, and should not be. There are intentional concessions in the design of the path for making sure new players are OK and don't hurt themselves.

    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    We fully expect veteran players to be entirely uninterested in taking the path and to produce stronger builds (whether focused on Greatswords, THF, pure Paladin, or trying out some Juggernaut variant). We don't expect veterans to produce *safer* builds, which is important for the path to cover.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.

    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.
    Ok, so far i gather from this post that Iconics are a noob thing and to be completely shut out from partys (exception you know the player, as always.)
    And they cant and will never be able to TR and we cant TR into them, which makes em completely un-interesting for me.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    Ok, so far i gather from this post that Iconics are a noob thing and to be completely shut out from partys (exception you know the player, as always.)
    And they cant and will never be able to TR and we cant TR into them, which makes em completely un-interesting for me.
    That's what I got from Vargouille's post too.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    That's what I got from Vargouille's post too.
    Yeah, they're designed to do level 15 quests on normal.

    However, Varhouille was specifically talking about the paths, not the iconics in general. So customized iconics may be up for lvl 15 quests on hard.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by swimmingjellycube View Post
    Yeah, they're designed to do level 15 quests on normal.

    However, Varhouille was specifically talking about the paths, not the iconics in general. So customized iconics may be up for lvl 15 quests on hard.
    There is nothing that keeps an experianced player from destroying elite quests with Iconics.
    But such a player will sooner or later grow bored of his build and then comes the moment where you realize that Iconics are a dead end.

    Also nobody is safe from making wrong decisions in his build and while i can just TR my first life Tukaw variant 13sorc/2mnk/5pal to 13sorc/5mnk/2pal and have fun with the new enhancements, a Iconic would either cost me lots of TP for lesser TR or as it looks like atm not being able to change that at all.
    Which means i would have to farm all that equip again, farm all those Epic Destinie points again, buy all those Bank/Inventar slots again, buy again Tome of Fate and greater Tome of XP.
    And no matter how cool they look, thats just not worth it. (not even with taking me a month to TR a char)
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    Ok, so far i gather from this post that Iconics are a noob thing and to be completely shut out from partys (exception you know the player, as always.)
    And they cant and will never be able to TR and we cant TR into them, which makes em completely un-interesting for me.
    Since Vargouille didn't say anything about them TRing one way or another, it seems to suggest that the subject might still be under debate with the dev team. I certainly hope that it is and that the "let them be a TR option" faction wins out, otherwise yeah, Iconics are going to be pretty heavily marginalized.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    Since Vargouille didn't say anything about them TRing one way or another, it seems to suggest that the subject might still be under debate with the dev team. I certainly hope that it is and that the "let them be a TR option" faction wins out, otherwise yeah, Iconics are going to be pretty heavily marginalized.
    Dont put your hopes to high, its always been the same when they silence something to death.


    But apart from that, i really dont get how they can expect us to test something without answering our questions about it.
    To fall back to our beloved Car analogies:
    hey, test our new Car.
    Sure, what motor has it?
    ... ...
    hello? i asked what motor it has.
    ... more dead crickets ...
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  8. #28
    Community Member ~Garrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path is not designed for min-maxing towards ultimate DPS, and should not be. There are intentional concessions in the design of the path for making sure new players are OK and don't hurt themselves.

    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    We fully expect veteran players to be entirely uninterested in taking the path and to produce stronger builds (whether focused on Greatswords, THF, pure Paladin, or trying out some Juggernaut variant). We don't expect veterans to produce *safer* builds, which is important for the path to cover.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.

    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.
    Here's some rather interesting thoughts about bladeforged:

    First off, I definitely think one should reduce in wisdom; there are better investments to make in other stats at the current cost. At most, the starting wisdom should be 8-10. Sure, you may argue that you are worried players will be unable to cast spells if they swap/remove their gear, but it is one of many things players should learn; Unlike in the PnP game, you CAN use gear to increase your ability score enough to cast spells. In fact, a tooltip that shows up if a player does not have enough of a mental stat to cast spells would be nice.

    And second, rather than invest fully in concentration, there should at least be a skill investment in intimidate. After all, the goal of a paladin is to confront their foes and smite them with the power of their deity, so intimidate should be a primary skill to invest in. If you add 2 points in intelligence(from say, lowering the wisdom score), I would suggest either making repair a class skill for a bladeforged and putting skill points in there or investing in concentration if you so desire. But bottom line: Bladeforged should have skill points in intimidate, NOT concentration.
    Last edited by Garrus; 05-08-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrus View Post
    Here's some rather interesting thoughts about bladeforged:

    First off, I definitely think one should reduce in wisdom; there are better investments to make in other stats at the current cost. At most, the starting wisdom should be 8-10. Sure, you may argue that you are worried players will be unable to cast spells if they swap/remove their gear, but it is one of many things players should learn;
    12 would be a fair break point, given the 2 for 1 spend at that point.
    Unlike in the PnP game, you CAN use gear to increase your ability score enough to cast spells.
    Many play this way, but the rules actually support otherwise. This is one of those common things though (like Free Parking in Monopoly).

    In fact, a tooltip that shows up if a player does not have enough of a mental stat to cast spells would be nice.
    True dat. It would actually be a great learning tip.


    And second, rather than invest fully in concentration, there should at least be a skill investment in intimidate. After all, the goal of a paladin is to confront their foes and smite them with the power of their deity, so intimidate should be a primary skill to invest in. If you add 2 points in intelligence(from say, lowering the wisdom score), I would suggest either making repair a class skill for a bladeforged and putting skill points in there or investing in concentration if you so desire. But bottom line: Bladeforged should have skill points in intimidate, NOT concentration.
    Do they add in quicken later in the path?

    I suspect concentration may become more useful in the future enhancement pass.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.
    Paths should not be aimed at bad players. This is not a vet vs new player thing. This is a player who tries casting a spell realizes they fail and ignores all advice about merely putting on a simple wisdom item.

    It is an easily corrected issue for a player in other words. While having poor stat point allocation is a much more difficult problem to overcome as it requires a reincarnate.
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  11. #31
    Community Member ~Zebstrika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.
    First, you can easily lower the wisdom requirement, make sure the paladin gets wisdom gear, and simply add some kind of hint. I actually think in the character building on live, when you roll up a paladin, where it describes the usefulness of str/dex/con/int/wis/cha it says you need 14 wis for all spellcasting, just make it a bit more obvious than this, and make sure the player is aware that it is 14 total wisdom rather than starting.

    Second, who are we kidding, even the newbs run elite streak (when they're pugging at least) all the time

  12. #32
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path is not designed for min-maxing towards ultimate DPS, and should not be. There are intentional concessions in the design of the path for making sure new players are OK and don't hurt themselves.

    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    We fully expect veteran players to be entirely uninterested in taking the path and to produce stronger builds (whether focused on Greatswords, THF, pure Paladin, or trying out some Juggernaut variant). We don't expect veterans to produce *safer* builds, which is important for the path to cover.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.

    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.

    If it's not designed for the vets, why have them test it? Their playstyles and feedback will vastly differ from the people you're counting on using this stuff.

    Seems like more wasted development time.

    Oh well. At least it's not as bad as the enhancement pass.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path is not designed for min-maxing towards ultimate DPS, and should not be. There are intentional concessions in the design of the path for making sure new players are OK and don't hurt themselves.

    For instance, we never want a brand new Paladin player to end up in a situation where they can't cast their spells. This is why they must have a 14 Wisdom: We have to assume they may remove any gear we give them, so this is the minimum we are comfortable giving them.

    We fully expect veteran players to be entirely uninterested in taking the path and to produce stronger builds (whether focused on Greatswords, THF, pure Paladin, or trying out some Juggernaut variant). We don't expect veterans to produce *safer* builds, which is important for the path to cover.

    With all of that in mind, there are probably still some improvements that could be made in the path, but the goal is to ensure reasonably fun gameplay while averting the worst of the disasters, for players who are most likely playing level 15 quests on Normal.

    Paths are not aimed primarily towards veteran players, and we don't expect them to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with.
    Okay, I appreciate you coming and talking to us about this. I have some criticism.

    You say that you don't intend for the build to compete on a power-level with the best designs players can come up with. Why not? What argument can you make for designing a poor build? If good builds exist, have been discussed, have been dissected and reworked till they shine, then it stands to reason that you want to give a new player starting at lvl15 the best build you can make. There are many ways to build a good Paladin; many end-goals you can shoot for. Pick one, and go all in. The result will be better than cutting in every key area and winding up gimp.

    ((Oh, and btw, would it not have made more sense to post your build here using Ron's Planner BEFORE coding it? We could have had this discussion weeks or months ago, agreed on a build that works for what your goals are, and saved you having to write and re-write it now? That's kinda the way we do it here... We post our theoretical builds and get input before we try to put them into practice in the game... What's more, we wouldn't need to log-in to check it out. Many here have asked for the build stats to be posted, you could have pre-empted that by posting your build idea in the 'accepted' way, like we all do...))

    You say there are intentional concessions in the design to make sure new players don't hurt themselves. An added penalty to healing does not jive with that statement.

    You say you want to focus on 'safety' (whatever that means), but in doing so you've essentially painted a "Do Not PUG" sign on these characters. You'd be safer building a strong DPS, or strong hate/intimi tank, or whatever, and teaching the new players what's important about their build. Your thinking process on Wisdom is a good example. As has been said, what's easier to correct: poor initial stat allocation or gearing choices? Since reincarnation is out, the obvious answer is gear. And I think you're really selling newbies short if you think they won't be able to figure out that taking off their +4 wis item caused their inability to cast. I trust that they'll be corrected in-game in a quick hurry. Whereas if they try to take their shiny gimps into content that's just too tough for the build, there's just nothing anyone can do about it. What's more, these characters WILL be finding tomes and gear as they go. The incentive will exist for them to TR/LR/GR to improve their build once they have some experience, gear, and tomes under their belts. By eliminating reincarnation AND allocating poorly at creation, all you'd succeed in doing is teaching them how NOT to build, and then forcing them to re-roll non-Iconic. That or quit. That can't possibly be what you're hoping for.

    Now, let's say I agree with you and these Iconics are aimed squarely at brand new players. You want to keep them safe and give them fun builds to play. Why then would you start off with Paladin? Pallys have the heaviest stat point load of any class. They're best done with past lives and lots of stat points. They rely on investing heavily in 4 of the 6 starting stats. Pally is probably the Worst class you could have picked for an Iconic aimed at new players. I'm hoping any other classes you have on the table will better fit that strategy, like Barb, Fighter, Sorc, even Ranger (if done properly). At the very least you need to put a big red warning on the Pally stating "Very Difficult". Remember, these guys won't have tomes, past lives, or epic gear to make them viable.

    I said it earlier and want to restate it: New players will need an Enhancement tutorial. Right now you have "Spend points on Enhs" in your dialog box with the LoB. Get rid of that. Give the player who chooses to go straight to 15 Pally the option of DoS or KotC. Then walk them through their enhancement choices, stressing stat, enh, and points spent prereqs. Then walk them through hotbars as well.

    I think you DO have a great, marketable product here with Iconics. I can see how they'd very much appeal to a player entering DDO for the very first time. I also strongly feel that if you're charging $ for these 'introductory' characters, they need to be viable in the long term, and not simply shiny disposable junk. Otherwise you run the risk of pushing newbies away rather than drawing them in.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    If it's not designed for the vets, why have them test it? Their playstyles and feedback will vastly differ from the people you're counting on using this stuff.

    Seems like more wasted development time.
    I think you're missing a few points about the whole idea of these.

    You can't ask a newbie player to test this because they don't have a clue what they're doing. The intention is obviously to have level-headed, mature and experienced players to give some constructive feedback on an off-the-shelf quick-start build for new players. The aim is to improve the new player experience would be my assumption. But again, with the lack of background to what these are intended to be, then I'm having to assume.

    Now we can debate whether new players should even consider starting at level 15 when all of the lower level quests provide a much better training ground for learning quest mechanics, build mechanics, basic tactics and teamwork. But that's not what we're being asked to do.

    I don't have any issues with any of the predefined paths not being optimised - to me they have always been a learning tool for new players anyway. Veteran players will inevitably come up with some powerful variations of these with a little bit of creative thinking, but you wouldn't expect new players to do any of that.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 05-09-2013 at 08:08 AM.

  15. #35
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    I kinda like this Bladeforged. Me being somewhat of a newb my first 1 was a straight up pally and was impressed with it and i dont play paladins. So I thought wiz or sorc because that is what i play mostly. First 2 I fudged on ended up with a 35% spell failure but worked it down to a 4% relaizing what i did wrong i tried 2more 1 wiz pm 1 sorc air savant and got it right this time. So I think this is a workable character for anyone newbe or a vetrian. if a newbe take the lvl 15 to start i would suggest they start withe the very first quest on Korthos Island and work their way up just to get a feel for the chacater and such

  16. #36
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Now, let's say I agree with you and these Iconics are aimed squarely at brand new players.
    The path for Bladeforged is designed primarily for new players. Iconics themselves are not intended to be as focused in who they interest.

  17. #37
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path for Bladeforged is designed primarily for new players. Iconics themselves are not intended to be as focused in who they interest.
    Who is interested in iconics? 100% serious question. Who would be interested, by your metrics, in a class that starts at level 15, but is unable to reincarnate at all? Is there some huge majority of people who, when they quit, fill out the exit survey saying "I want to play a dead end character from level 15 to cap please!" Of course the exit survey hasn't worked for years, so I'm not sure where you would even find something like that out.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path for Bladeforged is designed primarily for new players. Iconics themselves are not intended to be as focused in who they interest.
    Is there any intention to add favored soul / cleric to the list of Bladeforged Iconic characters?

    Seems fitting since both can be Favored by the Lord of Blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Who is interested in iconics? 100% serious question.
    Me. They look like a potential lazy/easy path to creating buff bots / heal bots (gimps that i wouldn't otherwise make time for). I will probably end up using one to farm heroic Cannith challenge mats occasionally too.

    I would not however pay anything over what I already have for Iconics.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 05-09-2013 at 03:49 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The path for Bladeforged is designed primarily for new players. Iconics themselves are not intended to be as focused in who they interest.
    Unfortunately your design points have ended up at odds with each other and you're not accomplishing any of your goals well. This is all assuming that the Iconics are a premium feature, which matters.

    A new player can see a stronger starting character to play with, but one they have to pay for. The path should be stronger rather than safer, although the starting equipment can and should be on the low side of acceptable - intended to be replaced as gameplay progresses. The decisions made by the path are permanent for the character; you can't go back and alter it thanks to the LR/TR restrictions.
    A brief aside - as I transitioned from being a "new player" to a "veteran player" one of the things that happened is I saw all the limitations of my initial 28-point build. A character that I had a lot of fun playing but had weaknesses I couldn't completely cover with gear improvements and so forth. I built a new character - completely different build - but I still wanted that first character to work out. Finally I decided to TR (rather than GR) into the 34 point build and redesign. I've never been happier about that character, and it was completely worth it. New players taking a Bladeforged on the path will NEVER have that "growth" moment where they can take a character they like and redesign from the ground up and improve it. They have to throw the character away - including the non-transferable gains, like tomes and BtC gear - and start over (although from lvl 15). It's a "feel bad" moment instead.

    A veteran player, on the other hand, has a different experience. They will look at what this Iconic is before even buying it, and what I see at least is "A new race with a lot of restrictions on how to use it". It's basically a new Warforged form. Except I have to take a first level of Paladin. and I can't TR into it. And I can't TR out of it. And I end up just wishing you were selling me the Bladeforged race as a proper race and leaving this "start at lvl 15" thing unconnected to it.

    Maybe when we know about the whole process, I'll see something differently, but so far I haven't really enjoyed my gameplay with it and I'm not looking forward to buying it.

  20. #40
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    First of all, I don't spend any time on Lamannia but when big changes are coming I do spend some time reading about those changes. The biggest thing I notice about the new bladeforged is that they're intended for new players, which begs the question: are you devs expecting a big influx of new players? And, if so, on what basis? It seems to me that if you managed to attract a large influx of new players with your new bladeforged build and, they actually liked the game enough to stay, that they would ultimately be disappointed by their new bladeforged characters' ineligibility for true resurrection, which is the brilliant gimmick which keeps players playing in the first place.

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