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  1. #61
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    There is more options available to you then to exploit or not to exploit. Obviously you should always start by reporting the thing you came across. Afterwards if you hear nothing and get no reply, then consider bringing it up with your friends. See what they think. Players should come to a consensus whether or not the exact thing you found is a exploit or something more likely a "cool feature". If it a /bad/ exploit (definition by other posters), just stay on the high ground.

    But if things like... Windowing, as others have said, never came to the light then it would never have been labeled WAI so we can use it in LFM and as we please. And without people knowing it and using windowing, the devs wouldn't have labeled it such a way. The debate needs to be important to receive important feedback, IMHO.

    If epic questing really does work at heroic levels, I would not be suprised if it was standard LFM in a few months. Would be nice if it was either labeled WAI or fixed... It really sounds like a fun challenge to try EE GH Madstone at level 17. What a blast that would be. "Guys I'm low enervation scrolls, only got 300 left!"

    EN Jungle, LoD etc. might speed up leveling 17-20. But idk. They added tomes to speed up our leveling... Doesn't seem like a huge issue

    Anyways my point is ... Exploits like shears are removed when they get known. Exploits like windowing become a standard when it's known. If you get no feedback from bug/exploit report then bring it up local before going global.
    If we go by the others definition on "bad" and "good" exploits. Then I encourage you to figure out which kind they are, and then share the good ones while burying the bad ones in a pile of exploit reports.

    Through it does become fun after a while, when you join a Maze oM group and someone says "one of these days I have to learn how to run this quest normally"

  2. #62
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Everything is a "feature" until it is ether fixed or broken. LOL.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Yeah - Please start a forum thread stating how we can do this - If it gets removed we'll then know it's an exploit!
    My reply about that exact thing got deleted, does that count? It absolutely is an exploit, but after it has been in play for so long without an official position about it you can consider it acceptable conduct.

    Read this fast before it gets deleted again.

  4. #64
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    NOT having to run through USELESS EDs 90% of the time is way more fun that running up Dreadnaught on a Wizard or Grandmaster on a barbarian. Farming high-XP quests lets you circumvent the stupidest grind ever designed in any game: the ED grind.

    Or they can just put shears back in the store. We were more than willing to pay real money to NOT throw XP in the toilet. There is clearly a demand for some means of leveling up an ED while in a stronger ED.
    Shear to win!!!!

    Still can't believe people are still being reported for ED xp farming.

  5. #65
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffsold View Post
    snip... I play on arggonession ... No one on the server is helpful or friendly... Snip
    yay argo!
    Shmuel Xadin Xadins Errand Mohnster Yitzhak

  6. #66
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    Idealisms aside, if you're asking on the public forums whether or not you should exploit it's either a roundabout way of pointing out said feature, a desire to start a dialogue about the subject, or an act of total idiocy. I.E. probably straight trollin'.

    The only things that need to be said about any such behavior have been said before:

    If it looks like an exploit and smells like an exploit, it probably is. Almost always common sense and basic reading skills would dictate whether or not something is intended. "Because the coding allows it" and "the devs haven't responded 'yes' or 'no'" are not permissions, although considering the often months (or years) of silence from Turbine, it might be a case where it really doesn't matter in the long run; this is a game, after all.

    Same as robbing a bank- go for it. But you better consider all the outcomes first and accept the potential consequences, because if things go south no one wants to hear your sob story.

  7. #67
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    I think that most of you are hypocritical drama queens.

    What is the difference in me finding an exploit to level cap in a day and paying someone an ottos box (and one to use on leveling me) to do the same thing in a day? There is no difference except Turbine lost sales on 2 ottos boxes. It does not hurt another player at all.

    What if I find an exploit to plat cap a toon in an hour? What if I were to buy 10 ottos boxes and advertise in the marketplace and plat cap 10 toons in 10 minutes? This has the same effect on you. What does it hurt you (the individual player) if I cheat by exploiting or pulling put my CC to plat cap?

    What if I find a way to dupe an item? Is it any worse than if I once again buy 20 boxes and hand them out to get whatever I need? There is no difference at all except Turbine is missing out on some money. This does not bother a single person at all.

    There is no difference in either situation. You can say one is more “moral” than the other, but I am not so certain to say what one is.


    P.S. Before anyone starts talking about Turibne losing money, do you think the money I give would mahe the game any better or would it be an investment in putting in more irritants? I should also note that I do not exploit, but find it funny how some of you find one form of people getting "an unfair advantage as good", while the other is just a theif.
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  8. #68
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    I deleted my original reply as it looks like Mods are doing a good job taking offensive posts out of here.

    Regarding the OP... It sounds to me like you have a well formed conscience and already know the right answer deep down but are rightly frustrated with lack of clarity &/or in-action.

    I agree you should report it and work to privately confirm whether it is an exploit per private methods recommended above. I personally would not use it unless it is confirmed it is NOT and exploit. Cheating at anything in life harms you more in the long run.
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-12-2013 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #69
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I think that most of you are hypocritical drama queens.

    What is the difference in me finding an exploit to level cap in a day and paying someone an ottos box (and one to use on leveling me) to do the same thing in a day? There is no difference except Turbine lost sales on 2 ottos boxes. It does not hurt another player at all.

    What if I find an exploit to plat cap a toon in an hour? What if I were to buy 10 ottos boxes and advertise in the marketplace and plat cap 10 toons in 10 minutes? This has the same effect on you. What does it hurt you (the individual player) if I cheat by exploiting or pulling put my CC to plat cap?

    What if I find a way to dupe an item? Is it any worse than if I once again buy 20 boxes and hand them out to get whatever I need? There is no difference at all except Turbine is missing out on some money. This does not bother a single person at all.

    There is no difference in either situation. You can say one is more “moral” than the other, but I am not so certain to say what one is.


    P.S. Before anyone starts talking about Turibne losing money, do you think the money I give would mahe the game any better or would it be an investment in putting in more irritants? I should also note that I do not exploit, but find it funny how some of you find one form of people getting "an unfair advantage as good", while the other is just a theif.
    I think the clue in here is which of the definitions of Exploit is being used...

    In this context "Exploit" is using the "taking advantage of for personal gain" definition. For games that usually is in reference to an unintended feature (Commonly referred to as a bug)

    Morality aside, Turbine guidelines have specific guidance in their terms of service as it relates to these "Unintended Features".

    the difference on your Otto's box example lies within the scope of if your "Exploit" is intended or unintended. While the Veteran Status and Otto's/Bigby's boxes are known intended features, it is unknown if your ability to level to 20 in a single day is intended or not as without details it is unknown if this process is utilizing an unintended feature or not.

    Morality is generally governed as part of a Social Contract, but each individual has and will interpret that morality for themselves. However, the governing of right and wrong will always be based on the Morality of the Judge - Be that yourself, society or Turbine. Keeping that in mind we must all live with the consequences of our personal actions.

  10. #70
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    IMO if the game doesnt officialy say that xxxxx is an exploit then the player base should not be expected to act as though it were.

  11. #71
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    IMO if the game doesnt officialy say that xxxxx is an exploit then the player base should not be expected to act as though it were.
    And that right there is one of the two prevailing extreme views that contribute to this discussion being dragged out.

    Those who believe because we can do it, it should be done

    And

    Those who see something that doesn't follow how they interpret the rules, so it must be an exploit.

    The problem is that as players we cannot (even though we would like to say we can) 100% say what is and is not an exploit of the game design/coding.

    There are some things that have happened in DDO that was obvious to everyone that it was an Exploit - IE what happened when House C challenges first came out. And others which people will claim to be an exploit, but later will turn out as being intended such as Window Farming.

    To me as players that want to see the game be as good as it can possibly be we should report what we see as bugs. However, we should not be the police of others in so much as we should avoid people that play the game in a manner we don't agree with.

    Again only Turbine can dictate what is and is not an Exploit and because of their policy on the Forums of not discussing Exploits it will be difficult to propagate that information.

  12. #72
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I think the clue in here is which of the definitions of Exploit is being used...

    In this context "Exploit" is using the "taking advantage of for personal gain" definition. For games that usually is in reference to an unintended feature (Commonly referred to as a bug)

    Morality aside, Turbine guidelines have specific guidance in their terms of service as it relates to these "Unintended Features".

    the difference on your Otto's box example lies within the scope of if your "Exploit" is intended or unintended. While the Veteran Status and Otto's/Bigby's boxes are known intended features, it is unknown if your ability to level to 20 in a single day is intended or not as without details it is unknown if this process is utilizing an unintended feature or not.

    Morality is generally governed as part of a Social Contract, but each individual has and will interpret that morality for themselves. However, the governing of right and wrong will always be based on the Morality of the Judge - Be that yourself, society or Turbine. Keeping that in mind we must all live with the consequences of our personal actions.
    I am glad you responded. I know that it is a moral conundrum and I would never advocate cheating or telling others to stick it to Turbine because they stick it to us.

    I am just surprised that no one else has chimed in on this. Maybe people realize that there is no difference between an exploiter and a P2Wer. They both get an unfair advantage over others and the only difference is Turbine sees one as an “unethical moneymaker” and the other as “unethical”.
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  13. #73
    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    It's actually in the wiki on the epic destiny page.
    Could you link the page? I believe you, but I didn't find it on the wiki.
    --Pealea, Peawee, worldpeas, givepeas achance, and whoopea on Khyber

  14. #74
    Community Member Uidolon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    IMO if the game doesnt officialy say that xxxxx is an exploit then the player base should not be expected to act as though it were.
    lots of people have gotten banned over things that were not officially a exploit since tubine did not want to let people know that it was possible by saying its not allowed its more common turbine sais nothing about a exploit until after its fixed. if you dont hear turbine saying someting is allowed then you should assume by the fact they make sure not to meantion it its on a list of getting fixed and that they might ban people who used it after they got it fixed.
    this has happened before but generally turbine isnt very banny compared to many other mmos your fairly safe exploiting away still a couple have gotten perma banned in the past.

    im gona guess nobody will get banned by this or worst case just a 1week or similar stop nothing permanent if its the exploit i think it is and there are several i know of right now

    edit:
    hmm lots of people have gotten banned .... yeah this isnt really true i exaggerated to make my point extremly few people out of lots of exploiters have gotten banned just doesnt have the same ring to it even if its more true.
    Last edited by Uidolon; 08-13-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I am glad you responded. I know that it is a moral conundrum and I would never advocate cheating or telling others to stick it to Turbine because they stick it to us.

    I am just surprised that no one else has chimed in on this. Maybe people realize that there is no difference between an exploiter and a P2Wer. They both get an unfair advantage over others and the only difference is Turbine sees one as an “unethical moneymaker” and the other as “unethical”.
    You're under the impression that ethics has anything to do with this?

    Essentially, this is Turbine's sandbox. We're paying for the ability to play in it, provided we follow their rules. If we don't, they can boot us. They can change the rules. They can leave rules unstated. Whether it's fair, or right, or ethical, or that their decisions are based on who's getting paid is beside the point, because it's right there in the EULA that you agreed to in order to play, just like any other MMO or piece of software.
    Last edited by FrancisP.Fancypants; 08-14-2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: shameful spelling

  16. #76
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    You're under the impression that ethics has anything to do with this?

    Essentially, this is Turbine's sandbox. We're paying for the ability to play in it, provided we follow their rules. If we don't, they can boot us. They can change the rules. They can leave rules unstated. Whether it's fair, or right, or ethical, or that their decisions are based on who's getting paid is beside the point, because it's right their in the EULA that you agreed to in order to play, just like any other MMO or piece of software.
    Ethics have nothing to do with this really. This boils down to people coming here on their high horse saying that an exploiter should burn in Dante’s inferno, when a guy with a huge wallet does the same thing, he is good?

    I understand that this is Turbines sandbox, and we should follow all their rules. I am not yelling at Turbine for this. I made my post because of those people that want to cast the first stone, yet they turn their head when a P2Wer gets an unfair advantage.
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  17. #77
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veriden View Post
    Frankly being able to use your epic twists of fate from lvl 1 and up is wrong, its an exploit. Why make an easy game easier? You don't need to cheat to win at ddo. That is all.
    Personally, I don't care what you do when you solo. But when you join a pug, especially at low levels where there is a decent chance of having newbies in the group, racing through the quest with your meteor storm and cocoon going full blast is particularly inconsiderate. I was running with some folks I was introducing to the game and we had exactly this happen. It was absolutely game breaking for these folks as they didn't know the quest, were learning how to play, and were enjoying the wonder and awe of experiencing some of the great things in this game from a brand new perspective. And suddenly, they were caught in the wake of a comet as he ran through the quest at high speed and finished before the noobs even had a clue what happened.

    This guy ruined this quest for them, and what's worse, set the tone of what players are like.

    I ran into this guy later and asked him about using exploits and if he was concerned about being banned. He told me that he was not worried because earlier someone had reported him for cheating and that person was banned. I figured there was more to the story than what he was telling us, but his implication is that the GMs not only didn't care that he was cheating, but that they condoned it. I later found out that the person that reported him got very upset with the GM because he was told that nothing would be done, and at that point became abusive to the GM and that's why he was banned. Interesting how he left that part out of his story.

  18. #78
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shataan View Post
    Simple way to check if something is an exploit:

    Post a step by step guide of how to do it. If your post/thread gets deleted and gets you banned within a few hours, it was an exploit! xD
    Awesome! ..... And effective !!!!
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  19. #79
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Again only Turbine can dictate what is and is not an Exploit and because of their policy on the Forums of not discussing Exploits it will be difficult to propagate that information.
    There's an easy way for Turbine to fix this ^

    Obviously the issue with talking about specific exploits on the forums is that that itself is a bannable offense

    BUT

    What Turbine could do is create a Sticky Thread where after each update they specify anything that some of us might think is an exploit but is actually WAI.

    Say Like

    1) Window Farming - We have no issues with this whatsoever!

    Then if said Exploit is NOT on said Sticky then guess what - It's an Exploit!

  20. #80
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    I think it was called Epic Advantage by the devs? So its most likely just a feature that has sneaked in too soon, like the useless enhancement we see

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