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  1. #1
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    Default WTB raidloot. PST.

    I've noticed a disturbing trend lately where people start offering stuff in exchange for raidloot while it's sitting in the chest.

    My problem with this is twofold. First of all, it lets those who have and are willing to spend money to spend on the game get their loot faster than those who can't or refuse to do so. After all, if someone's willing to drop an otto's box to get what they want, what chance do those who can't match the offer have?

    My secondary problem is with the sense of camarderie. As more loot is sold, less is put up for roll for anyone else who might want to make use of the item. Thus, raiding feels less like a fun activity done in a big group and more a business venture in which everyone's trying to make plat out of each other while gearing their characters.

    Now finally, I'd like to argue that letting other people make offers for your loot is bad for the game as a whole. Some might say that discreetly selling raidloot is no big deal. For example, if Richard the Rogue offers an otto's box in a tell to Larry the Lucky Looter for an Agony and Larry accepts, nobody else will see anything except Larry passing the Agony to Richard. Passing loot is a whole other bag of worms which I won't go into here, but this transaction is easily disguised as helping out a friend. The problem with this activity is that it sends a message to both Richard & Larry that selling loot is ok. Once enough people get this impression, we'll start seeing people trying to auction their raid loot as they pull it. I for one, would not want to raid in such an environment, and thus a clear message should be sent to those who're trying to buy or sell raid loot that it's not ok, they're bad people and they should feel bad.

    Where did the good ol' days of rolling for the loot you want go?

    Tl;dr: Whine about raidloot selling, one appeal to equality and one slippery slope argument against raidloot selling.
    I used to be called Lehmu on the forums. Then the forums took an arrow to the knee.
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  2. #2
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    This isn't a recent trend, it's been happening at least since I started playing in early 2010. You probably just haven't noticed it before, as it all tends to be very hush hush. This is the reality of the world we live in, artificial 'honour' systems are an exploitation strategy aimed at the naive.

    It's the people who elbow their way in early, climb up on the backs and heads of others and have respectable chunks of wealth and influence to throw around, who always get the goodies. You will find many of the 'uber' players and vets participate in this practice ruthlessly.

    This is just good old capitalism.
    Last edited by Gaesatae; 05-05-2013 at 10:42 AM. Reason: removed speculative analogy to evolution

  3. #3
    Community Member ~swimmingjellycube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    Where did the good ol' days of rolling for the loot you want go?
    Those days were gone a long time ago.

    Say someone offers you something for your raidloot.
    You instead put it up for roll.
    That player will simply buy it from whoever won it in the roll.

    Secondly, just putting an item up for roll won't really give everyone who will use it an equal opportunity. Guildies tend to pass loot to their guildies after winning a roll.

    However, the pay to win mentality of the shard exchange has spilled over into raid looting though; I have seen much more raid loot selling since the implementation of the shard exchange. Although this isn't recent, it has increased recently.

  4. #4

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    When it comes to loot, it all boils down to "your loot is your loot". If someone wants to sell it or buy it, you can't do a whole lot about it. You may not like it, but it will still happen.

    There are ways to minimize this behavior if it isn't something you want to be a part of. My guild for instance has a very strict no selling/buying/direct passing of raid loot. If you're in a run with members of my guild we will never sell or buy raid loot and nobody gets more of a chance of being passed loot than anyone else, pugger or guildie. All unwanted loot is rolled off. We find that it helps reflect a positive opinion of our members and helps the community as a whole. Now we can't tell puggers what to do with their loot on runs we're a part of, but we subject ourselves to this rule even if others in the group don't.

  5. #5
    Community Member ~Kalener's Avatar
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    While I've long had the same anti-sell sentiment with Raid loot, I do have one glaring exception and I'm curious what others think.

    What about trading raid loot in chest? For example, if a rogue gets the tablecloth and a wizard get the bracers in FoT, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the two of them to swap items rather than putting them up for roll.

    Of course, for my own sanity's sake, I work under the "your loot is your loot" idea simply because it isn't worth my impacting my enjoyment of the game by worrying that someone else sold loot. But I'd be willing to trade loot (not sure if I have in the past, but don't recall doing so), and I wonder about other peoples' opinion of the practice.

  6. #6
    Community Member ~kruemeli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalener View Post
    While I've long had the same anti-sell sentiment with Raid loot, I do have one glaring exception and I'm curious what others think.

    ....
    I think you can do what you want with your loot... just dont try telling me what to do with mine!
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalener View Post
    While I've long had the same anti-sell sentiment with Raid loot, I do have one glaring exception and I'm curious what others think.

    What about trading raid loot in chest? For example, if a rogue gets the tablecloth and a wizard get the bracers in FoT, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the two of them to swap items rather than putting them up for roll.
    I think this falls into the "your loot is your loot" category. I personally don't really like it, but that's not going to stop anyone from doing it and me telling random people in my group not to do something like that will probably not go over well.

    Pretty much anything related to loot will be both liked and disliked by different parts of the gaming population at the same time. This is why it all boils down to the golden loot rule. If it ends up that someone's looting practices are different enough from your own that it bothers you, then you always have the option to not run with them in the future.

    Everyone has a different idea of what's acceptable and what's not. Trying to get everyone to agree on a set of loot rules is just never going to happen.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23-A View Post
    Everyone has a different idea of what's acceptable and what's not. Trying to get everyone to agree on a set of loot rules is just never going to happen.
    While this is true, the effort to promote ones own looting preferences is never wasted. The more people subscribe to a certain loot policy, the more common is it for people new to the raiding scene to adopt this policy.

    Thus, if argo wants to keep its old way of having people roll on unwanted loot, the population should make the effort of not selling raidloot and mocking those who try to buy it.
    Last edited by Kanttura; 05-05-2013 at 02:40 PM.
    I used to be called Lehmu on the forums. Then the forums took an arrow to the knee.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Dhakonus's Avatar
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    It's just a matter of point of view actually.
    As an active raider from 2009,i dislike and discourage these trades,i recently declined 1 million plat for a celestia,and just put it for roll.
    I also was happy that the guy who won was the one that had made me the offer.
    I have lost many times loot that i wanted,cause of this new trend,especially the whole 'trade for commendations',or even worse 'trade for 2 coms only' in FoT.
    But i honestly don't care anymore,i just take notice of the people who do this and if i have a choice i won't raid with them.
    The good thing is that i can't recall any good guild members doing this,it propably is something only the new players do,the ones who haven't lived the glorious days of old EVon,Eadq and Echrono.
    And to be honest,i can't understand their way of thinking and enjoying the game and they propably can't understand mine.
    But as i've said,at least in cannith,there are good guilds and players,with whom we share a similar way of thinking.
    You make your friend lists and there you go.
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  10. #10
    Community Member ~Arcscoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    This isn't a recent trend, it's been happening at least since I started playing in early 2010. You probably just haven't noticed it before, as it all tends to be very hush hush. This is the reality of the world we live in, artificial 'honour' systems are an exploitation strategy aimed at the naive.

    It's the people who elbow their way in early, climb up on the backs and heads of others and have respectable chunks of wealth and influence to throw around, who always get the goodies. You will find many of the 'uber' players and vets participate in this practice ruthlessly.

    This is just good old capitalism.
    Absolutely wrong. I don't think uber players get to be uber by carrying around that kind of attitude. Also, gear does not equal uber.
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  11. #11
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcscoob View Post
    Absolutely wrong. I don't think uber players get to be uber by carrying around that kind of attitude. Also, gear does not equal uber.
    Your interpretation of the quoted text and subsequent conclusions are based on logical fallacy. Nowhere did I imply that engaging in the practices described, in any way relates to making one an 'uber' player.

    What I can say for an absolute fact, based on my own personal experience, is that this kind of behavior occurs predominatly among the 'endgame' community. This includes many players who are considered 'uber' in these circles, which consist almost predominantly of 'veterans'.

    I have certainly profited greatly from the practice, after losing my initial reservations.
    Last edited by Gaesatae; 05-05-2013 at 08:59 PM.

  12. #12
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    I think the solution lends to itself quite nicely.

    Some random nub offers to buy raidloot --> someone notices that person buying raidloot --> that person notifies guild --> guild bans the loot buyer from all guild runs & spread the word --> guild spread the word to other guilds who do the same.

    Bam, for that Twilight or Pinion or whatever, that person is now banned from running with half of the server.

    Speaking of which, I better update the "loot-selling-jacka$$" list of guild the forum.

  13. #13
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbearded View Post
    I think the solution lends to itself quite nicely.

    Some random nub offers to buy raidloot --> someone notices that person buying raidloot --> that person notifies guild --> guild bans the loot buyer from all guild runs & spread the word --> guild spread the word to other guilds who do the same.

    Bam, for that Twilight or Pinion or whatever, that person is now banned from running with half of the server.

    Speaking of which, I better update the "loot-selling-jacka$$" list of guild the forum.
    A few things:

    1. You assume there is some immorality in the practice of passing bound loot for unbound loot. What is your basis in the real world for this assumption? That is in fact how the real world works, people don't give away private property that they no longer require in a raffle, they sell it.

    2. More people participate in this practice than you realise and they are spread out among many of the larger guilds, even especially so in the larger guilds.

    3. There isn't a large and coherent enough community left in DDO for any sort of critical mass for a cultural change to occur, it certainly didn't when there was a much larger raiding population than there is today.

    What this all comes down to is your loot is my loot and people resenting what people do with THEIR loot.

  14. #14
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    I have absolutely no problem paying unbound items to a player that pulls something that I want especially if it is something I have been grinding my butt off for a year to get. Though some people go a little overboard with their offers, I don't have a problem with it at all.

    Personally, I find people that roll for every single item more offensive than those that are willing to pay for it. I was in a group where someone was offered 30 LDS for an item. I thought he was totally insane but since he had over 100 of them it wasn't a big deal to him.

    When I first started playing I thought 100k was an incredible amount of plat and was nearly unattainable. Now I spend that much a day just on pots and things.

    OP you really need to suck it up and just deal that this isn't PNP and you are not the DM. You do not make any rules for the society as a whole and just need to accept that most people are not similar to you.

  15. #15
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    A few things:

    1. You assume there is some immorality in the practice of passing bound loot for unbound loot. What is your basis in the real world for this assumption? That is in fact how the real world works, people don't give away private property that they no longer require in a raffle, they sell it.

    2. More people participate in this practice than you realise and they are spread out among many of the larger guilds, even especially so in the larger guilds.

    3. There isn't a large and coherent enough community left in DDO for any sort of critical mass for a cultural change to occur, it certainly didn't when there was a much larger raiding population than there is today.

    What this all comes down to is your loot is my loot and people resenting what people do with THEIR loot.
    Larger guilds never sell raid loot. Give us examples instead of spreading false informations with no basis.

    As for me, I hate this practice. It happened recently in a CitW, for a Twilight. What ****es me off even more is that when you try to tell them that this is not an acceptable behavior (because they might not know) and should never occur in a raid, they don't care at all and just send you to the hell.

    Another thing that ****es me off is the fact that this is done in tells. If you wanna sell your loot, do it in party chat so that everyone can see it. And everyone can decide if either squelch you or not.

  16. #16
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    Welcome to the reason why I don't PuG OP.

    I find such behaviour abhorrent and want no part in it, so I only run with my Guild who share similar views.

    If twelve people contributed to the success of a Raid then they deserve an equal chance. If I get something that I can't use, don't want, or feel that others might put to better use, it goes up for a roll, plain and simple. Since my Guildies feel the same way it means it's fair, they will do the same with items they pull and we all help each other out.

    I have no interest whatsoever in effectively pulling out my Credit Card after we've all contributed to the completion of a Quest or Raid.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    A few things:

    1. You assume there is some immorality in the practice of passing bound loot for unbound loot. What is your basis in the real world for this assumption? That is in fact how the real world works, people don't give away private property that they no longer require in a raffle, they sell it.
    This is false. The morality of such an action hasn't come into question. The people here opposing the selling of raid loot simply do not want to raid in such an environment where this takes place. Also, real world analogies fall flat when you realize DDO isn't real life. That's right. DDO isn't real life. We don't have to be greedy here. We don't have to look out for number one first and foremost here. We really do get to be kind to strangers and have them be kind to us in turn. But I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    2. More people participate in this practice than you realise and they are spread out among many of the larger guilds, even especially so in the larger guilds.
    Examples, please. Guildnames would be best since we don't want to name any specific people here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    3. There isn't a large and coherent enough community left in DDO for any sort of critical mass for a cultural change to occur, it certainly didn't when there was a much larger raiding population than there is today.
    Really. Then why was it, that in the olden days most people didn't even think of selling their raidloot? No cultural change has happened since, I'm sure. Except it's happening as we speak.
    I used to be called Lehmu on the forums. Then the forums took an arrow to the knee.
    I play Feira, Hjeelmee Nao, Shrtguy Stabsalot, Iioi, Iioo, Iiio, Kesib, Havesword Willtravel and Eisiishai on argo.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen View Post
    OP you really need to suck it up and just deal that this isn't PNP and you are not the DM. You do not make any rules for the society as a whole and just need to accept that most people are not similar to you.
    Did I ever claim to be a DM? No, I don't think I did. [Edit] Amusingly enough, if I was a DM in a PnP game and my players wanted to sell their loot amongst each other, I would not have a problem with it. Virtually no loot is BtC and has a (low) droprate in pnp unless a DM rule zeroes it.[/edit]

    As for making rules for society, of course I'm not making them by myself. Yet I feel my view is worth sharing on this matter and I'm not alone in this. Trying to change the behavior of general population is a goal worthy enough to pursue.
    Last edited by Kanttura; 05-06-2013 at 06:49 AM.
    I used to be called Lehmu on the forums. Then the forums took an arrow to the knee.
    I play Feira, Hjeelmee Nao, Shrtguy Stabsalot, Iioi, Iioo, Iiio, Kesib, Havesword Willtravel and Eisiishai on argo.
    Proud member of Trolls' Lair

  19. #19
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Larger guilds never sell raid loot.
    They do on my server, so what you've said here is obviously utter nonsense or wishful thinking. On your server it might be different, but I seriously doubt it, policing and enforcing it would be a full-time job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Give us examples instead of spreading false informations with no basis.
    We aren't allowed to name players or guilds on the forums, you should know that. Suffice to say, I've witnessed it countless times, so if you want to call me a liar on an internet forum, there's nothing more to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Another thing that ****es me off is the fact that this is done in tells. If you wanna sell your loot, do it in party chat so that everyone can see it. And everyone can decide if either squelch you or not.
    No matter how many artificial rules you put in place, if there's an advantage to be had by going around them, directly to the source then someone will do it and get ahead in doing so, just as in the real world.

  20. #20
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    This is false. The morality of such an action hasn't come into question. The people here opposing the selling of raid loot simply do not want to raid in such an environment where this takes place.
    I think you need to go and check what the word immorality means and how it applies in this context.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    Also, real world analogies fall flat when you realize DDO isn't real life. That's right. DDO isn't real life.
    What other basis for comparison do you expect people to use? Imaginary life? What else are you going to use as a reference point? What else is there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    We don't have to be greedy here. We don't have to look out for number one first and foremost here. We really do get to be kind to strangers and have them be kind to us in turn. But I digress.
    You are free to do that, just as people in the real world are. That isn't going to stop the people who want something and know how to go about getting it, from going around you and and your self-imposed handicap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    Examples, please. Guildnames would be best since we don't want to name any specific people here.
    We both know that's not allowed. Why do you want to know that anyway? So you can try to gang up and bully them for wanting to enjoy the freedom of disposing of THEIR loot as THEY see fit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanttura View Post
    Really. Then why was it, that in the olden days most people didn't even think of selling their raidloot? No cultural change has happened since, I'm sure. Except it's happening as we speak.
    Not sure which 'olden days' you are referring to, but when I started DDO in early 2010 it was rampant, took me a year to cotton on, but once I did it all made sense. I've had a few people in this thread already declare what I've said is wrong or false, without backing it up with anything susbstantial outside of their personal distaste or butthurt that they didn't get an equal chance at someone else's loot. I'm 100% confident that what I've witnessed time and time again is not restricted to my server, but is part of human nature.

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