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  1. #81
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    All I can say, is that if someone has a guildy in quest and they want to pass to that person first, I have no problems with that.

    Guildies are more important than puggers, as they are your in game "family" so to speak, and you would always try to put your family above a random person on the street.

    For me:

    Can I use it and do I want it? (has to be yes on both accounts, not gonna loot a pinion on a barbarian, even if I am gonna TR.....other people can use it now, although I don't especially care if someone takes an item for a TR) if yes then loot it.

    Is there a guildy who can use the item AND wants it in the group? (yes on both accounts, not gonna pass it to a guildy who can't use it) if so pass to them.

    Then I put it up for roll.

    If this is selfish, or if you think it is wrong to show favouritism to guildies, I'm not especially bothered.....these people are essentially my family, and I shall treat them as such.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial_Soup View Post
    All I can say, is that if someone has a guildy in quest and they want to pass to that person first, I have no problems with that.

    Guildies are more important than puggers, as they are your in game "family" so to speak, and you would always try to put your family above a random person on the street.
    There are some end game guilds on Argonessen that follow this plan. My guild, however, is not one of them.

    For me, personally, I don't join guild runs led by the guilds that do follow the "guildies first" rules. I don't blacklist their members, or anything stupid like that. I understand why they do it, and don't have any real issues with them doing it per se.

    But I won't join one of their runs, once I'm made aware of their loot policies.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    There are some end game guilds on Argonessen that follow this plan. My guild, however, is not one of them.

    For me, personally, I don't join guild runs led by the guilds that do follow the "guildies first" rules. I don't blacklist their members, or anything stupid like that. I understand why they do it, and don't have any real issues with them doing it per se.

    But I won't join one of their runs, once I'm made aware of their loot policies.
    I don't believe that the guild I'm in follows that rule, it is just a personal thing.....I try to give to those I am logged on with 100% of the time first rights.

    So yeah, only me not my guild >.>

    EDIT: I should clarify, it isn't like I'm making others give their loot to guildies (As it is their loot) I'll just ask if a guildy wants it first. There clarificationified.
    Last edited by Primordial_Soup; 05-08-2013 at 05:31 PM.

  4. #84
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    It is so sad to find out the thread you thought you hijacked is still right on course


    Anyway -- While I do understand your decision to pass to your guildies and not pugs, I am in a guild that does not support that way of thinking. While I would not keep you from my runs, I would expect you to follow the rules we set while in our runs. If you do not, THEN I would keep you from my runs. What you do in your own runs is your own business.

    I do understand that your guild is your friends/family -- but if you never treat others as potential friends/family -- they will never become that.

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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitraine View Post
    It is so sad to find out the thread you thought you hijacked is still right on course


    Anyway -- While I do understand your decision to pass to your guildies and not pugs, I am in a guild that does not support that way of thinking. While I would not keep you from my runs, I would expect you to follow the rules we set while in our runs. If you do not, THEN I would keep you from my runs. What you do in your own runs is your own business.

    I do understand that your guild is your friends/family -- but if you never treat others as potential friends/family -- they will never become that.

    ~Az
    ChaosKnights
    Of course if your group has a rule against that I would follow it (your group your rules right?), and I do try to meet new people (And do meet new people very regularly, as I try to be friendly to most PUGgers I run across lol)....so yeah no worries there actually had a friend in game join the guild I'm in from running with me....was quite nice.

    EDIT: and that friend I met PUGging EE estar quests >.>

  6. #86
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    When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

    When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

    If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

    When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

    If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.
    Actually I have never thought of it that way O.o

    That is very good reasoning.

    Might be enough to change my mind lol.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

    When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

    If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.
    Its funny, some players seem to forget that everybody already is treated equally in regards to loot, its called the initial roll. I'm not talking the roll that someone lists in chat, I'm talking the roll that happens when the chest is first opened. Everybody has equal chance at loot.

    Here's a better analogy for you, same dinner party, everybody has equal access to the food. You've eaten yourself full, but you still have food on your plate. Does it matter what you do with it at that point? Does anyone care? Is it appropriate if a guest that you don't know throws a hissy fit because you gave your cake to your best friend?
    if you request a doggy bag, should the cook question if you'll actually eat it later? Would you expect everyone there to have an uproar if you decide to just dump it?

    This sense of entitlement towards other players' good fortune needs to end.
    Last edited by Saravis4; 05-09-2013 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    Its funny, some players seem to forget that everybody already is treated equally in regards to loot, its called the initial roll. I'm not talking the roll that someone lists in chat, I'm talking the roll that happens when the chest is first opened. Everybody has equal chance at loot.

    Here's a better analogy for you, same dinner party, everybody has equal access to the food. You've eaten yourself full, but you still have food on your plate. Does it matter what you do with it at that point? Does anyone care? Is it appropriate if a guest that you don't know throws a hissy fit because you gave your cake to your best friend?
    if you request a doggy bag, should the cook question if you'll actually eat it later? Would you expect everyone there to have an uproar if you decide to just dump it?

    This sense of entitlement towards other players' good fortune needs to end.
    One person's "sense of entitlement" is another person's team equality. I think it's a personal preference. Someone can say that sharing loot among their guildies is generosity. Someone else can say that sharing loot among any in the group that need it regardless of guild affiliation is generosity. Both people can be right. There shouldn't be an argument over who is right and who is wrong. The argument should be about how players with differing loot "rules" can coexist properly in groups or if they should segregate themselves to avoid drama.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23-A View Post
    One person's "sense of entitlement" is another person's team equality. I think it's a personal preference. Someone can say that sharing loot among their guildies is generosity. Someone else can say that sharing loot among any in the group that need it regardless of guild affiliation is generosity. Both people can be right. There shouldn't be an argument over who is right and who is wrong. The argument should be about how players with differing loot "rules" can coexist properly in groups or if they should segregate themselves to avoid drama.
    As I said, equality already exists, people who think its "fair" to put up an item for roll neglect to understand that they already had the same chance at that item as the person who got it. A person who puts up an item for roll is doing something generous. They are giving the players, who want that item, an extra chance to get it. In other words, the people rolling should be thankful, not expecting. Perhaps that's what I really have an issue with, its the lack of thankfulness that bugs me. Not the "its polite to say," thankfulness, I mean the "I don't deserve this, but you gave this to me out of generosity," thankfulness. Perhaps, if we had more recognition of thankfulness, there would be less drama.

    With all that said, if the leader wants to establish loot rules prior to a run, I can respect those rules. If I don't agree with them, I can leave. Its the general player that decides to throw a hissy fit because I passed what dropped for me to someone else that I have an issue with.
    Last edited by Saravis4; 05-09-2013 at 08:24 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23-A View Post
    The argument should be about how players with differing loot "rules" can coexist properly in groups or if they should segregate themselves to avoid drama.
    Either this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    if the leader wants to establish loot rules prior to a run, I can respect those rules. If I don't agree with them, I can leave.
    Or by remembering that really, it is in fact just a game.

  12. #92
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    Its funny, some players seem to forget that everybody already is treated equally in regards to loot, its called the initial roll. I'm not talking the roll that someone lists in chat, I'm talking the roll that happens when the chest is first opened. Everybody has equal chance at loot.

    Here's a better analogy for you, same dinner party, everybody has equal access to the food. You've eaten yourself full, but you still have food on your plate. Does it matter what you do with it at that point? Does anyone care? Is it appropriate if a guest that you don't know throws a hissy fit because you gave your cake to your best friend?
    if you request a doggy bag, should the cook question if you'll actually eat it later? Would you expect everyone there to have an uproar if you decide to just dump it?

    This sense of entitlement towards other players' good fortune needs to end.
    Actually, its a terrible analogy for the following reasons:

    If its the same dinner party, then the guest only has access to the food you provide him with. So your first point is wrong, everybody does NOT have equal access to the food.

    Second, the remaining food you don't want could be preferentially placed on a family members plate, thereby being inhospitable to the guest. Maybe he wants it, but you aren't giving it to him. Thats analogous to loot passing to guildies preferentially.

    See how that works? The initial roll that everyone has "equal" access to can be taken advantage of by having people serve as "two-box" pullers of the gear one person is looking for, thereby increasing that persons chances of getting said item as compared to the pug, who doesn't have the benefit of an essential "two box" in the party. This has nothing to do with the loot tables, and everything to do with how party's manage those loot tables.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Actually, its a terrible analogy for the following reasons:

    If its the same dinner party, then the guest only has access to the food you provide him with. So your first point is wrong, everybody does NOT have equal access to the food.
    \
    Wrong, if everybody has access to the chest, everyone has equal access to the loot. Unless, are you saying that the developers implemented unfair rolls? If you want an absurdly accurate analogy, then there's a buffet with all the food laid out, but everyone has to roll to determine what they can get. "Oh noes, I rolled a 1, I get a peanut." "Wow, you rolled a 20, you get a filet mignon and a potato." If you want to blame not getting what you wanted, blame it on your own bad luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Second, the remaining food you don't want could be preferentially placed on a family members plate, thereby being inhospitable to the guest. Maybe he wants it, but you aren't giving it to him. Thats analogous to loot passing to guildies preferentially.
    Who cares? In what world, do you live in, do people freak out when someone shared their food with someone else? I'd love to be at one of your parties, chairs would be flying. "That person shared his piece of cake with his wife! Banned!" "He took the last beer, I wanted the last beer!" I have never been at a party where someone made an issue out of who got what or who shared what or who gave what, except a little kid. A little kid was the only one I've ever seen at a party make an issue out of not getting what he wanted, think about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    See how that works? The initial roll that everyone has "equal" access to can be taken advantage of by having people serve as "two-box" pullers of the gear one person is looking for, thereby increasing that persons chances of getting said item as compared to the pug, who doesn't have the benefit of an essential "two box" in the party. This has nothing to do with the loot tables, and everything to do with how party's manage those loot tables.
    No, I don't because I don't care. I don't freak out when loot doesn't go my way. I don't freak out when I realize that someone was dual-boxing to get a higher chance at loot. I had my chance to get what I wanted and there will be a next time to try again.

    People feel unhappy about not getting what they want, I've felt unhappy because I didn't get what I wanted, but some people try to apply some morality to their unhappiness, try to say that it was unfair, when all it is is just disappointment. You're not unhappy because of some crazy injustice, you're just disappointed that luck didn't go your way, it happens, move on, try again later and stop expecting people to put things up for roll. They are doing so out of their own generosity. Be thankful for when they do, recognize what it means to be thankful. It bears repeating over and over, if more people would recognize what it means to be thankful there would be less drama. Well at least loot drama, can't speak for squishy, zerg, or melee vs. caster drama.

    Stop trying to apply some twisted morality, stop trying to create petty drama. The poster above you said it perfectly, this is just a game. Your life doesn't depend on it. Your success in life doesn't depend on it. Your success in the game is only relevant in the game. Have you ever really thought about that? That everything in this game is only relevant because of its established application to the game. When you look at things externally, you realize its all just numbers. Numbers that don't even matter outside of the rules of the game. The ESoS, for all of its awesomesauce, is just numbers made relevant because of the game and only within the game. You are creating drama over virtual numbers that have absolutely no impact on anything else, think about that. With a dinner party, you can sit around hungry with nothing but a peanut. In this, all that you've lost is time. You've spent time on a game and if you feel that was wasted, perhaps you should look elsewhere as it sounds like you're not having fun, which is the whole point of gaming.

    Finally, party doesn't manage loot tables, game does.

    I think I'm done. I really hope I've gotten through to you or anyone for that matter, though I doubt it. Stop with the petty drama and recognize generosity and thankfulness for what it is, please. Let's show non-gamers how mature we can be.
    Last edited by Saravis4; 05-10-2013 at 12:02 AM.

  14. #94
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    \
    Wrong, if everybody has access to the chest, everyone has equal access to the loot. Unless, are you saying that the developers implemented unfair rolls? If you want an absurdly accurate analogy, then there's a buffet with all the food laid out, but everyone has to roll to determine what they can get. "Oh noes, I rolled a 1, I get a peanut." "Wow, you rolled a 20, you get a filet mignon and a potato." If you want to blame not getting what you wanted, blame it on your own bad luck.


    Who cares? In what world, do you live in, do people freak out when someone shared their food with someone else? I'd love to be at one of your parties, chairs would be flying. "That person shared his piece of cake with his wife! Banned!" "He took the last beer, I wanted the last beer!" I have never been at a party where someone made an issue out of who got what or who shared what or who gave what, except a little kid. A little kid was the only one I've ever seen at a party make an issue out of not getting what he wanted, think about that.

    No, I don't because I don't care. I don't freak out when loot doesn't go my way. I don't freak out when I realize that someone was dual-boxing to get a higher chance at loot. I had my chance to get what I wanted and there will be a next time to try again.

    People feel unhappy about not getting what they want, I've felt unhappy because I didn't get what I wanted, but some people try to apply some morality to their unhappiness, try to say that it was unfair, when all it is is just disappointment. You're not unhappy because of some crazy injustice, you're just disappointed that luck didn't go your way, it happens, move on, try again later and stop expecting people to put things up for roll. They are doing so out of their own generosity. Be thankful for when they do, recognize what it means to be thankful. It bears repeating over and over, if more people would recognize what it means to be thankful there would be less drama. Well at least loot drama, can't speak for squishy, zerg, or melee vs. caster drama.

    Stop trying to apply some twisted morality, stop trying to create petty drama. The poster above you said it perfectly, this is just a game. Your life doesn't depend on it. Your success in life doesn't depend on it. Your success in the game is only relevant in the game. Have you ever really thought about that? That everything in this game is only relevant because of its established application to the game. When you look at things externally, you realize its all just numbers. Numbers that don't even matter outside of the rules of the game. The ESoS, for all of its awesomesauce, is just numbers made relevant because of the game and only within the game. You are creating drama over virtual numbers that have absolutely no impact on anything else, think about that. With a dinner party, you can sit around hungry with nothing but a peanut. In this, all that you've lost is time. You've spent time on a game and if you feel that was wasted, perhaps you should look elsewhere as it sounds like you're not having fun, which is the whole point of gaming.

    Finally, party doesn't manage loot tables, game does.

    I think I'm done. I really hope I've gotten through to you or anyone for that matter, though I doubt it. Stop with the petty drama and recognize generosity and thankfulness for what it is, please. Let's show non-gamers how mature we can be.
    lol

    You're so focused on "getting through" that you completely miss the point of what I wrote.

    I didn't even read past your first paragraph because you don't understand that more people looting the chest = higher chance of item, and if those people agree to pass said loot to an individual, that individual has an advantage, despite your so-called "equal" loot distribution.

    Lets try again:

    If you put together a party of yourself and 5 other boxes off a seperate computer with different accounts you created (like zonixx did), you are increasing the chances of receiving an item because all 6 chest pullers are in "agreement" about where its going to go.

    Now, if you have guildies (other real people, not just you over and over again) agree to help YOU get an item, then the pugs that come along for the ride are at a disadvantage. Period. This isn't brain surgery.

    What are you going to do, tell the party: "Ok, my item is up for roll only to so and so, you guys over there, f**ck off because you're not my guildie"

    Its the PLAYERS, not the loot tables that make this unequal. This is why the put up for roll or loot policy has been so successful at maintaining healthy social relations.
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  15. #95
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    \
    Stop trying to apply some twisted morality, stop trying to create petty drama. The poster above you said it perfectly, this is just a game. Your life doesn't depend on it. Your success in life doesn't depend on it. Your success in the game is only relevant in the game. Have you ever really thought about that? That everything in this game is only relevant because of its established application to the game. When you look at things externally, you realize its all just numbers. Numbers that don't even matter outside of the rules of the game. The ESoS, for all of its awesomesauce, is just numbers made relevant because of the game and only within the game. You are creating drama over virtual numbers that have absolutely no impact on anything else, think about that. With a dinner party, you can sit around hungry with nothing but a peanut. In this, all that you've lost is time. You've spent time on a game and if you feel that was wasted, perhaps you should look elsewhere as it sounds like you're not having fun, which is the whole point of gaming.

    Finally, party doesn't manage loot tables, game does.

    I think I'm done. I really hope I've gotten through to you or anyone for that matter, though I doubt it. Stop with the petty drama and recognize generosity and thankfulness for what it is, please. Let's show non-gamers how mature we can be.
    Lol, I just read this part

    I think you should read this too, its like a fat dude giving weight loss advice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Lol, I just read this part

    I think you should read this too, its like a fat dude giving weight loss advice.
    Edit: You know what, forget it. I had something typed up, but I realized that I was getting caught up in the venom of the drama. I won't get caught up in it, so enjoy yourself. I'll even send you my toons that you're free to squelch, if you so desire.
    Last edited by Saravis4; 05-10-2013 at 02:05 AM.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

    When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

    If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.
    That's nice, but I don't invite random people to my house for dinner. You are looking more at a restaurant where I will pay for my family and maybe friends, but everyone else can pay for themselves.

    If I run a raid I have no interest in or want loot from and switch to a toon I am not really keen on to help my guild out, you can bet that I will be passing my loot to whoever I want in guild. Next up I will pass to friends and then I will do whatever I like with it from letting it go for roll or passing to whoever I think might need it most (my loot so my opinion counts). Glad I am on Kyber.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kruemeli View Post
    I think you can do what you want with your loot... just dont try telling me what to do with mine!
    this is it in a nutshell.

    Unless it's in your name, it's none of your business.

    Take this approach to save yourself and everyone else grief.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis4 View Post
    Edit: You know what, forget it. I had something typed up, but I realized that I was getting caught up in the venom of the drama. I won't get caught up in it, so enjoy yourself. I'll even send you my toons that you're free to squelch, if you so desire.
    Nah, I'm not going to squelch you. Take it easy its just text on a gaming forum, have some fun with it - its not serious.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

    When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

    If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.
    That makes sense, nice metaphor
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