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  1. #1
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    Default Long drawn out sigh

    First and foremost let me be clear, this is a dummy account, deliberately...If you don't understand why..meh.
    I have played this game off and on, mostly on, for over 7 years. I have seen a myriad of changes.

    OK, now into the meat and potatoes. I am gonna keep it short and sweet folks. DDO is game game that bills itself on rewarding both build ability and play ability.

    The build abilities occasionally get reset with game changes to keep you on your toes or prevent things being stale. Ok, fine.

    The problem is the "anti-cheat" programming. The mobs get preference on position and spin around players and npcs like tops until the players, out of disgust rather than lack of ability allow them to get a flank hit. They sidestep rays while in a charge, reposition mid player cast, etc, etc, etc. The anticheat programming doesn't prevent cheating, it demands it, only from the mobs but nevertheless it does demand it.

    This doesn't even speak to the ever greater break in verisimilitude that occurs when traps stop going off so the winter wolf can run through unharmed or worse continue to go off and simply do no damage to the mobs..that are in all likelihood standing IN the trap casting as is found in Monastery for instance.

    Some posts recently ask where did DDO go wrong and will they fix it...The wrong that is being done is progressive, pervasive, and cumulative. Let me explain cumulative in this context as an effect which will bother you more the more you play.

    I see I am at risk for no longer being brief. You either know what I am talking about, are an extreme fanboy, or are new.

    That is all.

  2. #2
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    You either know what I am talking about, are an extreme fanboy, or are new.
    There are no other options?
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Guild: Guinness Knights

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    There are no other options?
    What this dude/dudette said.

  4. #4
    Community Member Myrddinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    OK, now into the meat and potatoes
    Wait, I was promised meat and potatoes

    The mobs get preference on position and spin around players and npcs like tops until the players, out of disgust rather than lack of ability allow them to get a flank hit. They sidestep rays while in a charge, reposition mid player cast, etc, etc, etc
    You just described how I play

    Seriously though, I have no problem with the AI giving a little advantage now and then. I mean, those mobs are always in the same place, at the same time, every time I run the same quest...they need all the help they can get!
    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

  5. #5
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Reads like someone was outsmarted by DDO AI.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  6. #6
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Reads like someone was outsmarted by DDO AI.
    Given that this is the same AI that happily chases you through a bladed barrier or firewall time and time again... That's just mean...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  7. #7
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    I've noticed some annoying AI patterns very recently. Mobs do seem to reactively move as soon as you press attack. You have to sort of predict where they will be and attack there, it can be as frustrating as trying to bite down on a tomato seed.

  8. #8
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    I've noticed some annoying AI patterns very recently. Mobs do seem to reactively move as soon as you press attack. You have to sort of predict where they will be and attack there, it can be as frustrating as trying to bite down on a tomato seed.
    It's called leading your target. This is supposed to be what you do. Yes lag makes this worse, but do you really expect the monster to stand still so you can kill it, or charge straight at you while you shoot it in the face? If so you really should reconsider...
    Quote Originally Posted by Philam View Post
    I nominate you as head developer of DDO!
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That tears it. I need to get a donkey.
    Concentrated power is the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan

  9. #9
    Community Member starhawk_6699's Avatar
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    Default yeah I hate this too

    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    and spin around players and npcs like tops until the players, out of disgust rather than lack of ability allow them to get a flank hit. They sidestep rays while in a charge, reposition mid cast...
    Have noticed this for sometime. I think it started about the same time as the "stuck in the wall" bug. Really frustrating to have the mob circle you at warp speed. Beyond that just yesterday I stunned a mob and a second later it still was able to cast a spell. On the bright side at least they finally fixed (mostly) the bug that let stunned or paralyzed mods move for awhile after they were stunned.I don't have any illusions that programing an AI is easy by any means but, come on man, you surely can do better than that.
    "Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." -- George Bernard Shaw

  10. #10
    Community Member ~Gaesatae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    It's called leading your target. This is supposed to be what you do. Yes lag makes this worse, but do you really expect the monster to stand still so you can kill it, or charge straight at you while you shoot it in the face? If so you really should reconsider...
    Really? That's what you got out of my post?

    I'm talking about specific monster behaviour that I only noticed the day I posted that, which I hadn't seen before in 3 years of playing. Have you ever played against Nightmare! Xaero in the original Quake 3? Or against anyone in an FPS game who is using an aimbot?

    In those cases, no matter what you do, the game calculates the possible outcomes, as you are moving the mouse or pressing fire and will do whatever is physically possible to ensure you will die before you can successfully complete the manoeuvre. Being able to corner and hit your foe without compromising yourself in those cases is literally impossible, hence the tomato seed analogy.

    That has nothing to do with lag, it's AI on steroids. What I was describing in DDO felt like reactive AI that had been turned up. When I would go to press Cleave on a mob, as soon as I pressed the key, it would already be jumping back just enough to avoid the hit. If I moved towards a mob swinging, it would move away from me at precisely the same rate.

    That would happen multiple times in a row. Yes, it could have been down to a wild streak of improbability, but it didn't feel like that, reading this thread only reinforced that feeling. I hope that helps you to understand the analogy I described in the post you quoted.
    Last edited by Gaesatae; 05-05-2013 at 10:26 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Reads like someone was outsmarted by DDO AI.
    Let's not play such games..particularly considering the list of things that outsmart you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Given that this is the same AI that happily chases you through a bladed barrier or firewall time and time again... That's just mean...
    Your not paying much attention. Try harder in the future.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    It's called leading your target. This is supposed to be what you do. Yes lag makes this worse, but do you really expect the monster to stand still so you can kill it, or charge straight at you while you shoot it in the face? If so you really should reconsider...

    You think that that is lag your experiencing huh? No...That is "anti-cheat software allowing mobs to retroactively undo your actions. Happens a lot doesn't it? If your not mad your not paying enough attention.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by starhawk_6699 View Post
    Have noticed this for sometime. I think it started about the same time as the "stuck in the wall" bug. Really frustrating to have the mob circle you at warp speed. Beyond that just yesterday I stunned a mob and a second later it still was able to cast a spell. On the bright side at least they finally fixed (mostly) the bug that let stunned or paralyzed mods move for awhile after they were stunned.I don't have any illusions that programing an AI is easy by any means but, come on man, you surely can do better than that.
    I can do better than expecting an interactive combat system to be interactive rather than retroactive with us on the sloppy seconds side of things as the paying customers and fan base...I wish I was speechless but this mentality is so incredibly common these days...

    How dare I expect quality and service. Lol.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaesatae View Post
    Really? That's what you got out of my post?

    I'm talking about specific monster behaviour that I only noticed the day I posted that, which I hadn't seen before in 3 years of playing. Have you ever played against Nightmare! Xaero in the original Quake 3? Or against anyone in an FPS game who is using an aimbot?

    In those cases, no matter what you do, the game calculates the possible outcomes, as you are moving the mouse or pressing fire and will do whatever is physically possible to ensure you will die before you can successfully complete the manoeuvre. Being able to corner and hit your foe without compromising yourself in those cases is literally impossible, hence the tomato seed analogy.

    That has nothing to do with lag, it's AI on steroids. What I was describing in DDO felt like reactive AI that had been turned up. When I would go to press Cleave on a mob, as soon as I pressed the key, it would already be jumping back just enough to avoid the hit. If I moved towards a mob swinging, it would move away from me at precisely the same rate.

    That would happen multiple times in a row. Yes, it could have been down to a wild streak of improbability, but it didn't feel like that, reading this thread only reinforced that feeling. I hope that helps you to understand the analogy I described in the post you quoted.
    Mostly correct, it is one worse though as the AI allows for things OUTSIDE of player option. I had a Clay Golem strafe my targetted Cyclonic blast...Anyone have any idea how slow those creatures move? It would simply not happen for a player. Period. Btw, the Cyclonic Blast visual did indeed strike the golem, it just did absolutely nothing as though it didn't all while putting the spell on cd. Don't target? They rush you and you spell goes to the ceiling and other absurdities.

    The reason it should be fixed is because it is broke. It's really that simple.

  16. #16
    Community Member ~Sir_Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    do you really expect the monster to stand still so you can kill it,
    Actually they mostly do just that if my toon is far enough away. I usually park my Drow wizard/rogue at the furthest possible targetable range - and he can target pretty effectively even if the subject is only intermittently visible - and let him plug away with a returning weapon or ranged spell. They generally do just stand there and let him take them down, or sometimes run in little circles around nothing in particular. Usually takes only 3 or four solid hits to kill.
    or charge straight at you while you shoot it in the face?
    The ogres tend to do that too. One or two maxed fireballs takes care of them before they can get close.Is the 'cheating AI' something that occurs mostly at higher/epic levels? My toons are still pretty low level and I have seen some of what's been described but not as much as some here seem to be seeing.

  17. #17
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    Given the power creep and level of talent many players have in this game maybe the mobs do need to "cheat".
    Argonessenn -Officer of Storm Shadow-
    Olen Anteres

  18. #18
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Let's not play such games..particularly considering the list of things that outsmart you.
    Awww, how cute especially since you do not know me.

    I am outsmarted by a great many things, but DDO AI is not among them.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  19. #19
    Community Member starhawk_6699's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    I can do better than expecting an interactive combat system to be interactive rather than retroactive with us on the sloppy seconds side of things as the paying customers and fan base...I wish I was speechless but this mentality is so incredibly common these days... How dare I expect quality and service. Lol.
    Hey don't get me wrong, I agree with you. My comment, "you can do better than that" was directed at the programmers not you. I have noticed the same things as you have mentioned and find it extremely frustrating. Especially on elite mode it seems that the way they find to make things harder is to crank up the speed of the mobs to inhuman levels. I was in a quest on elite with my wizard just the other day and when I tried to hit several hobgoblins with scorching ray and burning hands they were able to dodge them every time. Even the people I was running with were amazed and commented on it. I remember reading an article on how AI works and one of the things that it mentioned is that one of the ways used to make things tougher on the players is to do just that, turn up the speed for the mobs. Unfortunatly there comes a point where, if the speed of the mobs becomes too high then there is no way a human can be able to beat the computers speed and you are bound to lose. When it gets to this point it can become so frustrating that most people just give up. Its a fine line trying to make it hard enough to be challenging without going to far. As I said this is only one of the ways used to make things harder, there are other ways but this is one of the easiest to implement. Anyway, I don't expect to see things getting any better any time soon.
    "Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." -- George Bernard Shaw

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by starhawk_6699 View Post
    [...] I remember reading an article on how AI works and one of the things that it mentioned is that one of the ways used to make things tougher on the players is to do just that, turn up the speed for the mobs. [...]
    May I suggest some crowd control tactics like someone intimidating them or may be a Hypnotism first to hold them in place?

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