OP, I gave some thought to your post (yes the whole thing)
When MotU was released with the new items that made most everything we spent countless hours grinding for, obsolete. It threw everything out of whack. I didn't like it then, and don't like it now.
ED's have been a decent (not great) addition to the game game. However, the biggest single problem IMO is the lack of content. If our tweaked out toons don't have the content to be challenged, then what good are they? Sure Epic GH is very cool, but people are running the quests just to flag for FoT & gear. Gear that is level appropriate, but to use for what?
SO, to cover the end-game aspect of your post, I agree. And the obvious solution is expanded lvl appropriate content.
As for high lvl equipment in the store, meh... It's a profit center, and vital to the health of the game, so I tolerate it. (and ignore it all)
Guild; Decay is just foolish this long after it's placement in the game. Airships & amenities are in dire need of an overhaul. With pvp pits, better training aids and a few other gizmos we all could use and enjoy. I submitted ideas to certain devs 6 months ago with these and other ideas for guild, decay & housing. They responded with "we'll take these into consideration". If the expansion this year does NOT include some kind of guild system overhaul, then any chance we could have of your concern would be just that; A thought... Let's keep our fingers crossed.
I'm not saying the ship is sinking, but it most certainly is listing to starboard or port more than a few degrees.
All is not lost, things can be balanced, new content developed, and some the OP'ed gear toned down.
I've only been playing the game for about a year and a half, so i guess i don't remember these good old days everyone keeps referring to.
Sounds like most of the complaints in this thread are just personal things that Turbine doesn't really have any control over. If a guild implodes because don't get along, how is that Turbine's fault?
The only complaint i could see with guild decay was that there used to be a penalty for having less active players in your guild due to their decay exceeding their renown earned. Turbine seems to have come up with a good solution for this by removing individual decay for the most part.
Now i hear people in small guilds saying they are being penalized. How? Maybe i'm stupid, but i don't get it. What new penalties came for small guilds with the new system? I'm in a small guild and we consistently ding levels every week or two. We ding on days right after downtime, so apparrently the decay from that is as insignificant as i always thought it was.
People like to complain about the grind. So Turbine introduces items that you can get with less grind, and then the same players complain that there isn't enough grind. Again, this is a personal problem beyond Turbine's control. As far as gear getting better over time, well no kidding. Are they going to put out an update with worse gear?
Finally, I think it's funny that so many people say it's ok for Turbine to make money, as long as they don't, you know, do things to try and make money. Everything you can buy for money are completely optional, and it is good that it is there as an option. This is how companies make money.
Is the complaint that they are selling things that people want to buy? I guess that putting tomes in the store bothers some people. Why? What should they be selling? Stuff that nobody wants to buy? Stuff that you can easily get in the game without effort? (there is lots of that stuff in the store, most people refer to it as newb traps)
The power gap. Apparently a lot of people need to feel like they are better off than the next guy. I buy a new car, and it's great. Then my neighbor buys a better car, and all of a sudden my car sucks, even though it hasn't changed at all. This is just stupidity. Lack of perspective. Nothing Turbine can do about that.
Haey! A car analogy!
To the OP, it sounds to me like you're suffering from burnout. A quick read of your post and the only thing I would suggest for you to keep in mind is that experience equals power in this game.
Game experience to you as a player, not as a toon.
There arent many games that can claim that as they're too watered down.
Sounds to me like you've hit your ceiling, or as far as you care to hit anyway.
You asked how many people only complete a quest once.
I'm not a powergamer, I only game a couple hours 4-5 nights a week in ddo. I may not hit every quest only once but I hit it with that attitude.
I dont farm is what I mean.
I probably have a few hundred hours playing ddo so far. Thats a lot of hours. And I still know I'm only on the 'casual' level because theres just so damned much in this game to learn. It's nuts. (this is probably subjective as I've never really claimed to be intelligent or anything)
ANyway, thats my guess. You burned out, son.
I am a Founder in this game, I was on the Alpha and Beta trials before the game was released and played this game hard until about 2.5 years ago, then because of life plus the game having gotten stale (I mean really, for over a year or so we have a cap at 20 - meaning that no matter what you did, for an extended period of time, we as capped players were basically done with the game. Sure, towards the end of that time they introduced the reincarnation mechanic, a mechanic I initially protested having been a D&D fundamentalist, but which I eventually embraced. And yeah, that helped extend the shelf life of the game a bit, but it still lacked something. So I bounced for a couple years. Tried some other online games, like Guild Wars & WoW (yes - I went TO WoW from DDO, not vice versa like most), but none of them worked the way D&D works (A system I literally grew up with).
So two and a half years go by, and I fire up DDO and find my old account still in existence (thanks DDO!) and many of the people I call friends still playing the game. But now it's a new game. There's epic destinies and 5 epic levels. Sure, they're not classed epic levels (which I feel they should be - based off of your highest class level), but they exist and offer a new level of character customization that, quite frankly, is awesome as hell. So I quickly grind out 3 TRs from my previously capped toons and start leveling them in EDs. This was 5 months ago.
Just recently Neverwinter Online was released, and I got into the Alpha and Beta again. And yeah, that game is fun in it's own way and I can totally see some DDO players migrating over for now, but for me that game is a no-go. The main reason being the constant mouse-look mode. That is some terrible UI decision making in action. Maybe default to always mouselook, but don't make it the only option. So I came back, again to DDO, because it has the BEST combat experience in any fantasy MMO out there, plus I know the system like the back of my hand at this point.
And yeah, it was a bit demoralizing to see all of these crafted epic items I busted my figurative ass to build, all relegated to "nice twink gear for leveling" in the wake of MUCH easier to acquire epic level gear from MOTU and then GH. So I ground out gear from those new packs, and the game is fun for me again because I am not being constantly housed by everything in Epic level content. But here's the problem, those crafted Epic items were and still are very difficult to obtain but their power has not been increased on par with the game. It's still WAY harder to craft a set of, say, Epic Spectral Gloves, but who cares now? They're not worth the effort anymore when you can run a few repeats and pull some epic-hard Nether Grasps, which are infinitely better than the Epic Spec Gloves. But actually crafting a set of Epic Spectral Gloves is still much more difficult than farming ANY modern epic level drop item. And I think this is wrong. Crafted Epic items should ALWAYS be more powerful/valuable than non-crafted Epic items to better reward the player for actually taking the time to acquire all of the components to craft said item.
Other than that, I feel DDO is finally getting its stride as a game. It no longer feels partially complete to play, as it did before my hiatus. But along the way to this state, the game decision makers made some choices that don't make much sense (like harder to acquire farm items being less powerful than one-shot drop items). But until someone makes an online matchmaking service that connects people with online PnP games as fluidly as making a party in DDO, this game is my online default because, for all of it's real or perceived problems, there is no other game out there that gives me the same feeling of taking part in an adventure as DDO does. I will disclaim that I am biased towards the D&D stat/feat system so implementation of a system like that, with as much build flexibility that this games gives a player, is such a major pro that most, very valid, cons evaporate like so much water in a desert.
So that's my take. TLDR: crafted Epics got the shaft and should be amped commensurate with the difficulty involved with acquiring them, but DDO is still the only online D&D game that actually gets being D&D mostly right.
With the expansion they wanted to attract new players to the game.
This is why the stones of xp and the easy to get items.
Newbies and very experienced players had to meet half way so that they can party together.
They have made some mistakes but in general it is a game I love and they managed to keep it alive and growing .
Most of the basic problems in the OP stem from the 2 percent of the playerbase that can quickly fill out destinies, grind out past lives and grind out good gear. Turbine has made a concerted effort to now develop for the other 98 percent, while throwing the 2 percent a bone with EE. I'm not sure what to say. If you're part of that 2 percent, most all MMOs have a short shelf life, and it's okay to just move on when you've achieved everything you've achieved.
So when I say "making the game too easy" Im not talking about how easy EE is or how fast I can rack up completions. Im referring to how easy it is to acquire what I want out of those quests. Over the last 18 month period of time ithas gotten easier in orders of magnitude.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
I think there is a problem with DDO that many quests, especially raids have become superfluous. How many are now running Vision of Destruction, Hound of Xoriat, Master Artificer etc. ? Even Shroud struggles to fill groups.
1-2 years ago you could login and be sure these raids were up within 15-30 minutes at the most.
I think one reason for this is the introduction of level cap 25 and epic destinies. Before this new cap the gear you got from the raids were end game gear you would spend time to farm for. After MOTU you can get better gear by farming rares in King's Forest, using commendations to build what you need.
Before it was too hard to get certain raid gear. E. g. the famous eSoS required the base item, scroll, seal and shard. Players have tried for years to get all 4 items and still failed. For Greensteel items you need 3 types of shards and a lot of materials. Still, GS is easier to get. With enough runs you will eventually be able to craft.
The newer epic quests offer epic gear that drop in end chests with no need to craft them. You get them in 3 different strengths (epic normal, epic hard and epic elite). So if you farm some quests you get those items faster. I ran caught in the WEB about 15 times on my melee and got the 5 different weapons I needed. I have run Epic VON 5-6 over 100 times and still haven't seen the shard of Sword of Shadows drop a single time, I have a lot of other seals and shards I might be able to use at some time.
The end gear from HoX and VoD don't seem to be in demand anymore either. Even greensteel isn't used as much as before. GS items are nice for TR'ed toons until you get to the epic level. The HP and conc opp items are still used, but the weapons have found better ones in regular end chests in the epic quests.
So I think Turbine need to make a revamp of the existing raids and maybe do something about the gear there and how you acquire them.
Epic gear: I think quite a few of the original epic gear could benefit from being upped in power so they can compare with level 25 quests. How to acquire them should change too. Either you should get them directly at the raid end reward (EN, EH and EE variants) or you should change the crafting requirements. One thing that Turbine could do is stop having separate seals and shards for each item. Instead you could have generic seals and shards for the quest chain. This way you get a Vault of Night seal and Vault of night shard you can use with the base item and scroll to craft the epic version of the item. In the Vale you have generic Greensteel shards and that works better in my opinion. That means ANY seal and shard dropping at epic quests will be valuable to you.
For Greensteel I think it could be nice to have an epic shroud with a tier 4 crafting. Introduce epic shard and epic devil scales etc. THis way the GS gear can be usable at level 25. Then you will see epic players farm shrouds again.
Master Artificer, HoX, VOD, ToD etc. can get epic versions of their gear if you run the raids on epic.
However, I don't think Turbine have their focus on Eberron quests anymore. Their focus seem to be to create a "new" DDO in Forgotten Realms. In the new expansion you can create new toons there (at level 16). I expect to see more quests there at lower levels so eventually you can start level 1 toons there. It seems the Forgotten Realms quests are more in line with what people want. That means special gear drop directly in chests if you're lucky. That means no crafting to be able to use them.
Last edited by Peter_Stauffenberg; 05-04-2013 at 10:10 AM.
If the game starts to fall short of those goals consistently, they'll stop content production and let the game float along until it's not worth keeping the servers on anymore.
Personally I like where the game has gone, and where it is, with notable exceptions (the cutesie junk and a few systems in the game that are still Alpha) I find it more fun than before. My main problem with DDO right now is the grouping system that makes it hard for me to play in PUG groups as much as I'd like to. Maybe because I took a year off when they Nerfed a freshly capped build, and I wasn't enjoying the game because I had started to focus on the grind to "farm gear"... Nothing is less fun for me than repeating the same thing over and over.
I don't think DDO's main problems are the myriad of reasons listed so far in this thread. People get bored of playing the same game, they need fresh things or to take time away and do other stuff. A lot of what I'm reading here really boils down to that. "gear is obsolete too quickly" or "there's not enough reason to play a quest if the gear isn't good" are the reasons a bored person comes up with.
I play quests because they are fun... I played the same Half Life, Counter Strike and TFC maps over and over for probably 10 years if I count Source, DoD and TF2. With absolutely no items to grind for and no "carrots"... just the fun of playing. DDO has that... but it's hidden under this illusion that many players seem to share; that they NEED X item, and more importantly, X item NEEDS to be the best in slot or there's no reason to play.
I enjoy DDO because while I am a powergamer and have been for 30 odd years, somewhere along the line, not even all that long ago I have fiugured out that the best way to keep enjoying the "hamster wheel" that all MMO's and long lived games are (like multiplayer FPS's previously mentioned); Is to do WHATS FUN, and refuse to do anything that isn't, or stop doing anything that becomes less and less fun until you complain on the games forums about "Having to".
If you "have to" because its "required" (I.e. I HAVE TO farm eSoS because it's REQUIRED for my build) then you've taken a step in a direction that is MOST LIKELY not actually much fun. You've intentionally decided to subject yourself to a MONSTER GRIND... So unless you find a Korean MMO sized grind to be FUN, you're making a mistake, even setting that as a firm goal.
I have a Rogue Assasin build that wants eMNG, yeah just like all of them... if I set that as a hard set goal I am opening myself up to a grind... instead, I jump into those LFM's on occasion with various characters and if I get the account bound pieces, great... if not I'll try again later... I wont start LFM after LFM and while I'll farm a few times, I am not going to go at it for weeks. Same with SoS, I join the very occasional VON, some day I might end up with all the pieces.. If not... well The Drow Greataxe + ICS is a lot of fun... like a Big boy version of Carnifex... So I wont lose sleep over not even having a SINGLE ingredient... not even the base sword.
Now granted there are those who just love to do the same thing over and over, sometimes they love that, sometimes they love the "refinement" of a time-attack playstyle, sometimes they just like to check out, forget everything and click away. Nothing wrong with any of those... Unless those stop being fun... at which point there's something wrong with those. If you "enjoy farming for gear" and collecting items, or grinding content over and over... great... if you enjoy it you aren't here complaining about having to do it right? If you ARE complaining about having to do it, you're not having fun Simple as that.
So stop doing that; or chose to do it in such a way that the un-fun is mitigated and interrupted by longer bouts of fun. If there's literally nothing in the game that compels you to play besides an item that isn't any fun to try and get, then stop playing that game, at least take a break.
As the Joke goes "Doctor it hurts when I do this. Then stop doing that"
TLDR: S'K Bro, just chillax and have fun.
EDIT: YEA! I didn't have to relog in to post this or edit it. HURRY FOR BASIC FUNCTIONALITY getting fixed a mere days later.
Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 05-04-2013 at 01:47 PM.
What went wrong for me was them saying an enhancment pass was coming with MOTU then saying they had to push it back and back and back so they could do it "right".
And then they release a very "rough" outline of what they have spent more than a year on and it's broken and mostly garbage and doesn't take into account the things players asked for in the lets talk threads.
BOUND TO CHARACTER crafting ingredients challenge xp worthless after one run and they turn the blind eye and ignore the dozens of posts for more than a year.
Still not 3 pre's for every class
No plan on fixing amarath rings
Stupid gating wasting points in things you have zero need for to get to anythng useful
And the skill system revamp tying things to heal and repair instead of concentration total disconnect with how players and devs see the game we wanted them to be useful like say 5 spell power per 10 points or something not mandatory.
Then they migrate the forums and it's an utter mess can't log in wrong char name have to log in to post while logged in.
I've never taken more than a week or so break since alpha but i seriously have no desire to log in anymore going to take my first official break and check back in to see if it has spiraled into more of a cash grab than it already is.
Lets see if this sum ups an otherwise long winded whine.
"The game took and shrunk my epeen and I am not liking the fact that some newb can come in and acquire gear in a little over a few months that puts them on par with myself and friends. Now it is harder for me to look down on the unwashed masses and proclaim my uberness!"
A game cannot survive catering to 2% of the gaming population. Making it easier for those new to the game to bridge the gap is a good thing for someone looking to make profit. And that is the whole reason for a company to be in business is PROFIT!
It is still difficult for that 98% to complete content easily at elite. I see it everyday that I pug with groups having trouble with content that myself and guildies can crush. Want to know what is fun? Taking a fresh character and joining a static group of strangers that games once or twice a week and does not twink out their characters save what is found during questing. It has been quite a bit of fun to do that the last few months and helps with the burnout I was feeling towards the game.
Also, what most posters forget and ignore are that the forums aren't the sole source of player feedback to Turbine. We just don't have access to things like exit surveys and polls, conversations with devs, feedback at trade shows, or actual data about how many players run which quests, etc.
Finally, not everyone will be happy with any change. For every person who says DDO is too easy, there is easily one person who says it is too hard.
I don't envy any game designer chasing the Goldilock's zone for MMO players.
Well I'm new to DDO - I played WoW for over 5 years, almost full time. After that I took a good long break from MMORPGs, and I'm glad I did.
You see, if you go to the WoW forums everyone complains about the same stuff as on these forums. In fact I'm willing to bet that if you go to ANY game community forum you see the exact same posts as this.
And do you know what it means? It means go and do something else! Yes, thats right - something else!
Go outside, visit friends and family, play console games - I don't know, whatever. When you find you're only logging in to check your AH mail, stand in SR and look at other people, spend hours min/maxing your toons stats (as I did at the end of my WoW days) - anything but actually playing the game as you used to - it's time to move on. It's not the games fault - its just that you've explored all the things you wanted to in the first place!
I want to explore tripping 50 mobs in a row without having to chase at least one of them.
I also kinda want to explore crafting to level 200(cannith). I wish to have done a year and a half ago when it was announced though.
I would also like to explore Sands and/or Necropolis without dc'ing 1+ times when trying to enter the slayer area.
If I take a break, I might miss it.
I've played a long time and honestly I think DDO is still one of the best games out there.
I never get bored of playing.
I am always looking for the next good pick-up-group.
I accept most of the changes that are made as with everything,change is both good and bad.
Most of my charachters are not even in thier 4th life,however you wouldnt know if you've played with me
I power game but I mainly play pure class charachters simply because I believe the weakness in each pure class can be made up by other players in the group.
I don't need to have a mutt build and be completely self-healing and hitting for 4k damage with the Epic Club of the Silver Flame (why cant it be epic???) with every charachter,simply because thats not how the game is intended to be played.
So yeah I've seen waves of people leave this game over the years when each major change is made,and thats fine.
It'll be here when you get back,and you will be back hehe.
Last edited by Asirin; 05-06-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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