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  1. #21
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    I was visiting family late last year, sitting at the kitchen table playing ddo on my laptop and my nephew was sitting next to me playing league of legends on his parents laptop. I asked him why he did not play ddo anymore. He said his friends had stopped playing. When I asked why they stopped playing, he explained that the game was too complicated. After asking for more detail it was clear that his group of friends did not want to play a game that they had to tab out to the wiki to know what to do next.

    There really should be a quick and easy way to get all important (for a new player) information in game. For example is the quest giver in a tavern, on top of a building, is the quest a walkup, is it a flagging quest, do you have to be flagged to do the quest and if so what quests do you need to do and in what order.

    All of this information should NOT be imbedded in npc dialog. There needs to be a quick and easy way to check for this information in the game.

  2. #22
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Infinite trees would not be unbalancing. Theres already a limiting factor in there that balances the equation. 80 points. What that 3 tree limit does is make it so toons we have built today cannot be built after the pass. It puts multiclassing in severe check.
    It would be if the first core ability stay costing zero points. Eg, a Rogue 18/Ranger 1/Monk 1 would have cheap access to:

    • Infinite arrows (1 AP on AA tree)
    • +1d6 sneak attack damage (1 AP on Deepwood tree) and more ranged sneak range
    • Centered with shortswords (1 AP on ninja tree)
    • Access to grandmaster stances
    • Plus their main shtick on the three rogue trees


    Unlimited trees works if they remove the autogrants. Some of them are flavorful enough to be a problem to remove them. So, I stand by my reason that unlimited trees are unbalanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The changes are often discussed on Lam forums and are highly popular even among people who tend to disagree with each other regularly. They include using a universal AP spent requirement (as in how it works on live) instead of "AP spent in tree" as well as removing the generic enhancements from highly specific PrE trees which can arbitrarily lock you out of taking them if you don't want "20 AP spent in tree" to get an enhancement that used to have nothing to do with any PrE.
    I'm all in for generic enhancements to be very low on the tree (T1 or T2). I'm totally in for removing feat-required enhancements from T1 altogether (Like Kensei tree have 2 feat-dependent abilities on T1). But I'm not found on the "total AP spent" idea at all. The examples made themselves. A clonk could send all their points on their domain trees, and then go and grab a T5 monk ability because they already spent 78 AP on a non-related tree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    With those two changes most current builds can be re-created in the new system.
    The loudest cry I see for re-creating current builds are from non-ranger AAs: Bardchers, angels, bowbarians, monkchers...

    All the other build splashes are based on class abilities and feat combinations. Enhancements there are a bonus. However, the current archer builds will be forced to spend some points on racial tree, and then invest A LOT of points on the AA tree to be reasonably good/versatile with a bow. I agree this change will kill those builds.

    And I don't care about them. Builds that use every single scrap point to milk the system are expected to be broken if the system changes.

    Pure classes, in general, will be better.

    12/6 builds, in general, will stay the same or better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    By definition if things that are currently possible are eliminated then the pass has restricted choice and lowered variety. Right now the shiny "new choices" are mostly broken combinations that wont survive "beta phase".

    If our current builds break, and the shiny Demi-god "you only need 5 levels to get all the good stuff in two different PrE's" builds never make it into the game... well I don't have to point out that it's a massive movement towards the drain.
    It depends on how much the devs will make the 6/12/18/20 core abilities more powerful. I think it is too early to say the sky is falling. On the second pass, the panic button can be closer to our hand. But on alpha? Test things out, give your feedback, answer the surveys, and wait. Scream nerfs on Beta, and panic when the release date is set.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  3. #23
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    It would be if the first core ability stay costing zero points. Eg, a Rogue 18/Ranger 1/Monk 1 would have cheap access to:

    • Infinite arrows (1 AP on AA tree)
    • +1d6 sneak attack damage (1 AP on Deepwood tree) and more ranged sneak range
    • Centered with shortswords (1 AP on ninja tree)
    • Access to grandmaster stances
    • Plus their main shtick on the three rogue trees


    Unlimited trees works if they remove the autogrants. Some of them are flavorful enough to be a problem to remove them. So, I stand by my reason that unlimited trees are unbalanced.
    The 80 point limitation keeps them from attaining even 2 of the entire main lines. Theyd have ACCESS to those things, but they would not be able to have anywhere near all of them at the same time. So I maintain that the number of points required to move up trees combined with having 80 points total is already balancing enough. Arbitrary 3 tree limitation is arbitrary.

    Its going to be really terrible if this turns out to be one big stealth proxy nerf. There are already things I can build today that cannot be built on lamannia. Changes should make the game better, which means less restricting in this case. People think end game is too cookie cutter now? If this goes live and its more restricting arbitrarily than what we have now, its only going to make the game more cookie cutter, not less.

    DDO sets itself apart from other MMOs through character building customization, and FPS play action. The three tree limitation makes it look more like a clone MMO.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #24
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    And I don't care about them. Builds that use every single scrap point to milk the system are expected to be broken if the system changes.
    With the new system being more limiting than the old system, theres no way it could be broken to allow people to take enhancements in more than 3 trees. Its not even broken today, due to the 80 point limitation. Having ACCESS to alot of stuff does not equal having ALL of it at the SAME TIME.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Pure classes, in general, will be better.
    Not with the way abilities I can have ALL OF on live are distributed in a way that I CANNOT HAVE ALL OF after the pass goes live.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    12/6 builds, in general, will stay the same or better.
    12/6/2/ builds will be dead. This is where the 3 tree limitation ABSOLUTELY KILLS MULTICLASSING. The player sacrificed 8 levels of vertical advancement in one class to gain absolutely nothing in the other 2 classes. Using enhancements in the 6 level class or the 2 level class negates ENTIRE TREES in the 12 level class. Sacrificing vertical enhancement in one area should allow for lateral advancement in another, as it does today on live.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #25
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The 80 point limitation keeps them from attaining even 2 of the entire main lines. Theyd have ACCESS to those things, but they would not be able to have anywhere near all of them at the same time. So I maintain that the number of points required to move up trees combined with having 80 points total is already balancing enough. Arbitrary 3 tree limitation is arbitrary.
    Notice that my original reply implied that the suggestion would be allow infinite trees AND general AP spending unlocking. Requiring AP unlocking by tree will balance the unlimited trees somewhat.

    But as showed up, looks like you and Ironclaw are against one of my opinions, but not on the same point.

    If we should have unlimited trees, the core abilities (The bottom line) should be weaker on the 1-3 level, and higher tier enhancements should be gated by AP unlocking on the tree.

    If we should have general AP gating, there should be a limit on how many trees you have, so that you don't spend all your points in tier 1-4 on two useful trees, and catch only a powerful tier 5 ability in a third/fourth/fifth one.
    Last edited by nibel; 05-05-2013 at 01:31 PM.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  6. #26
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not with the way abilities I can have ALL OF on live are distributed in a way that I CANNOT HAVE ALL OF after the pass goes live.

    12/6/2/ builds will be dead. This is where the 3 tree limitation ABSOLUTELY KILLS MULTICLASSING.
    Just like you can't have all stuff you have on live with some builds, you CAN have stuff you can't have on live on the actual lamma build (that will be changed in a near future). And at least on two builds of mine (a halfling rogue and a dwarf fighter), when I tranferred them to Lamma, they got better stuff than what they have on live, except by obvious bugs, like stalwart stance turning off every time I switched weapons.

    12/6/2 might be dead IF they were making use of a lot of enhancements on the 2-level class. You might miss an Haste boost, or wand mastery. Maybe a class Toughness. But that heavily depends on that your 12/6 classes are. Eg, an acrobat rogue/monk/(fighter or druid) 13/6/1 will survive having only the acrobat, assassin and ninja trees. A bardcher 16/2/2 Bard/ranger/fighter will suffer to qualify for AA, but can switch up the fighter levels for a 16/4 bard/ranger and get access to T4 AA tree without requiring 22 points on the elf tree.

    And there is the problem that not every class have three trees right now. So, for a 2-trees class like bards, paladins and fighters, multiclassing just give you an extra tree. You are not worse than going pure (except by missing the core 20).
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  7. #27
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotMaarl View Post
    I believe many of the people at Turbine care plenty (look at any picture or video of Tolero and tell me she doesn't love her job!!!). Warner Brothers inserted the life-saving cash into the game and now they have a say on how things proceed. And it's clear that they want to make MAX money. This means we have to absorb some things we don't like.

    Constant development and updates > all the petty things people here nerdrage about.

    Play the game, or don't. WB reads metrics like new accounts per month and TP spent and bug reports filed. They don't waste time trying to gauge forum emo moods.

    If you want them to notice, you gotta do something that registers on one of their metrics. Posts here just waste everybody's time. I can't believe this needs to be explained.
    This and TOTALLY this.

    If you want to effect real changes, speak with your wallet or lack of it in this case. You stop spending money and they'll hear you. Whining in the forums, as stated in the above quote, is a waste of time.

  8. #28
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Default Doom. Again.

    The devs have already said the divine trees need work. What exactly that turns into remains to be seen, but that's the nature of "alpha". It works. Barely. For some values of the word "work". I for one am glad to see they shared so early. I have some reservations over various specifics, and the overall 'holistic' impacts ('simplifying' most into 'simpler' and more limited roles, for one), but others have expressed the concerns well.

    No. The enhancement pass isn't DDO's biggest problem (or pending one). There are 2 critical flaws today, of Turbine's making:
    1. Stone of Experience
    2. Ship buffs
    3. BB

    Stones seem like a good idea on the surface. Jet folks forward to high enough level to play MotU. Problem is they work too well. Many skip levels 8-15, turning them into a nearly party-less 'dead zone'. Couple that with the thinner selection of questions in the low teens (and the ones available tend to be older, more complicated, or require multiple players). I enjoy PUG'ing. I generally don't run with a guild. And that's OK. Or at least, it was. The past year+ it's gotten harder to find parties, in that 'mid' range. Partly as noted the wider 1-25 range spread out the population a bit. Partly DDO's not the hot Game of the Month. But partly because of Stones. It's hard to explain anything else when you find multiple parties up, all oddly stopping around level 7, then nothing until high teens. TDNBW.

    Ship buffs are horribly unbalancing and OP'd. Tell me why a level 1 toon can walk into a ship and get 30pts acid resist and other buffs normally requiring a caster level of 11+.

    Ship buffs also produce a nasty SOCIAL affect. Since they're so OP'd, lots of folks want them. Think you _need_ them. So every quest or two it's time to go out for dinner and drinks, while many scamper off to their ships for the latest 'fix'. Buff junkies. Some parties I've been in, folks run off to their ship between _every_ quest. Now some of these are TRs who know what they're doing. Some are powerjunkies who want every last little boost. And many are 'introduced' to the life of a ship buff junky since 'everyone else is doing so I should/can too'.

    Bravery Bonus causes many to run elite first (or only). Before BB folks would run normal + hard before elite (sometimes multiple times), but now many refuse to run anything but elite (whether or not they're up to it). I'd rather run no-elite quests than sit around for a half hour waiting for an elite group to form (oddly enough, the latter don't earn xp for those 30 minutes, and somehow think they're coming out ahead...)

    DDO cannot survive as an Eveningstar-only game. Even if everyone had the option to start at level 15, there's not enough content (and won't be for a while).

    I only see partial solutions.

    Stones
    The 7-16 game suffers (badly) whenever Stones are available (and quite a while after, since most don't take their lvl 5 toons to 10+ overnight). This is a problem of Turbine's making, and likely a profitable one at least in the short-term. I see fiscal incentive not to change this, but it has negative implications over the long-term. I've thought about it a fair bit, but the only solution I can see is to kill Stones, and I doubt that'll be desirable to Turbine (they undoubtedly bring in good coin), or to some of the community (3rd+ lifers no doubt tired of running some of that content repeatedly). This is worrisome.

    Ship buffs
    This is easily solved -- scale the buff to character level. A level 3 barbarian using a fire resistance shrine should only get 10pts resistance, or +1 stat boost, or... Resist Energy is 10/20/30 resistance for levels 1/7?/11, _at least_ use the same scale. Perhaps a bigger nerfbat is needed, to scale up through at least heroic levels, e.g. for 3 tiers go 1/8/15 or maybe something like 4/10/16. Considering they can't be dispelled like normal spells and cost a party 0 sp, they should give less benefit than spells at the same level. As is, ship buffs are unbalanced and OP'd.

    Bravery Bonus
    This has been discussed before. A simple change so you only get BB/hard on your 2nd life and BB/elite on your 3rd+ is one option. That may cause its own troubles, e.g. TRs would prefer to run elite-only and likely to see fewer non-TR in parties with TRs. Of course, one could question how that differs from today, and it would certainly encourage 1st and 2nd lifers.

    Take a look at server populations via DDOracle e.g. Thelanis
    http://ddoracle.com/Thelanis.html
    Throw "Characters by Level" (2nd set of data) into Excel and make a line graph, and you see the trend
    level 1 drops to ~half as many by level 3, flat through 5, then a HUGE spike at 6, plummeting for 7, then a ~60 degree slope up to 10, a drop at 11, a small incline to ~18 and then peaks then then a steep dropoff around 22-23 through 25. The numbers vary a bit but the chart's about the same for Khyber and Argo and others. Stones seem likely to be a key factor behind the spike @ lvl 6. That's also where the game starts to get harder, and some of the free content starts to get thinner. The trough @ 10+ seems likely due to content - the low teens have been a poor spot for quests for a long time. The popoulation doesn't really recover until ~16, and there's a dramatic rise ~17-18. There's an interesting valley @ 20, probably due to TR.


    So..no. Sorry OP. The enhancement pass needs some serious love, but it is alpha so I'd be shocked if it didn't. I for one am heartened to see such early work shared for feedback. Kudos to Turbine for doing this.

    The question now is how Turbine moves forward. Since they're removing the enhancements to test UI18 it'll be a while until the next batch of enhancement changes are shared. This hopefully gives them time to review and think on the feedback to date, and take steps to improve this change. What that new round of enhancement changes address (esp the meta- issues) will likely be telling.


    But DOOM? No. It's premature to declare Doom.

    There ARE reasons to fear today. Stones, ship buffs and BB are each destabilizing factors in their current form, inimical to the long term health of DDO. If you want to declare Doom, you should be pointing to those and urging Turbine to take steps to address those issues.

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