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  1. #1
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    Default Noob trying to understand DDO: Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue plan

    Hi. I'm new to DDO. In fact, other than playing lots of KOTOR and KOTOR II, I only know the basics of classic tabletop Dungeons and Dragons. I'm trying to get the hang of the game, understand the stats, the abilities, so forth.

    Right now, I have a Level 2 Fighter. I'm not sure how long I'll keep ~my first character~ since I'm getting the hang of the game and am pretty much bound to have made an unforeseen mistake when making this guy. What I want to do, since I'm going to end up deleting this character eventually (it's not a question of "if", but "when"), I want to get as much out of it as I can.

    When I reach Level 3, I plan to take two levels of Rogue, to get the Evasion skill (lots of resources on multiclassing that I found really love two levels of rogue JUST for this skill). Then, Once I hit level 5, one level of Barbarian for the speed boost (although the speed boost might be more ineffectual than I'm thinking, and it's not even worth it).

    Either 2 levels of Rogue and 1 level of Barbarian, OR 1 level of Barbarian and 2 levels of Rogue. Either way, at Level 5, my class will be Fighter Level 2, Barbarian Level 1, and Rogue Level 2. After that, leveling up as a Fighter exclusively until I've gotten the hang of the game and delete this experimental character.

    Any advice? Experiences of how awesome a Level 20 Fighter is? Current Barbarians who can tell me how effective the speed boost actually is? Multiclassing experts who can tell me what's wrong with this build, or what levels other than 3, 4, and 5 to do it at?

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Couple words of advice when splashing Rogue into a character

    1. Take Rogue as your first Level. Why: Because at First Level you get skill points to distribute that are (8 + Int Mod) * 4, rogues also have almost every skill as a class skill. This means 1 Point for 1 Point in almost every skill and a minimum of 28 Skill points to spend.

    2. Your second Rogue Level should come around the 9th or 10th Level. Used to shore up skills and get evasion at a time when it becomes extremely useful.

    3. Evasion is cool, but needs the Reflex save to back it up.

    As for the Barbarian level for Speed boost. This is generally done for Zerg TR purposes. The faster movement speed makes a difference when you know where you are going so that you get there fast.

    Multi-classing can be extremely fun but requires knowledge. I recommend reading the Multi-Class section of the Forums before you actually build to help get a good grasp of what you are trading.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Couple words of advice when splashing Rogue into a character

    1. Take Rogue as your first Level. Why: Because at First Level you get skill points to distribute that are (8 + Int Mod) * 4, rogues also have almost every skill as a class skill. This means 1 Point for 1 Point in almost every skill and a minimum of 28 Skill points to spend.

    2. Your second Rogue Level should come around the 9th or 10th Level. Used to shore up skills and get evasion at a time when it becomes extremely useful.
    Makes sense I suppose. I would have to start a new character to gain the full benefits of the Rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    3. Evasion is cool, but needs the Reflex save to back it up.
    Reflex saves are based on Dex, right? The dex on my Fighter is at 16 right now. Would that be enough to back it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    As for the Barbarian level for Speed boost. This is generally done for Zerg TR purposes. The faster movement speed makes a difference when you know where you are going so that you get there fast.
    What's Zerg TR? I'm new here, I don't understand the terminology. I'm guessing TR stands for True Reincarnation (which I currently know nothing about), and I'm guessing Zerg is a higher level repeatable quest?

    Honestly, I just want the higher movement speed. I hate walking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Multi-classing can be extremely fun but requires knowledge. I recommend reading the Multi-Class section of the Forums before you actually build to help get a good grasp of what you are trading.
    I'm definitely going to be looking at the Multiclass forums to see what people talk about when multiclassing.

    So granted that I'm a level 2 Fighter right now, do you think I should still go through with the Barbarian/Rogue path? Or just one level of Barbarian, since I started out as a Fighter and won't take full advantage of the Rogue class skill advantage?
    "Use the force, Harry." - Gandalf

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by PorkZip View Post
    Reflex saves are based on Dex, right? The dex on my Fighter is at 16 right now. Would that be enough to back it up?
    16 dex may even be too much, unless you're going to specialise at two-weapon fighting or want the evasion/imp evasion feats - which it sounds like you want, but many will pooh-pooh as sub-optimal. You can also get resistance items for more to all saves, or to a lesser degree if you just need one type of save boosted, one specific to that save (reflex/will/fortitude). They don't stack though, and by end game you may have a +7 Dex item ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PorkZip View Post
    What's Zerg TR? I'm new here, I don't understand the terminology. I'm guessing TR stands for True Reincarnation (which I currently know nothing about), and I'm guessing Zerg is a higher level repeatable quest?
    TR is True Reincarnation - each time you hit L20 you can reincarnate back to level 1 with moar power thanks to your previous life/lives. Second life you get 34 ability points, third life and subsequent give you 36 to spend at L1.

    Zerg is just a style of play which if done right is a beautiful thing to see. It's ultimately a race to the end of the quest (usually very efficiently) in the name of maximising XP per minute - often skipping optionals or other sub-optimal XP/min goals. Which is desired by multi-TRs since it takes over 4.3 million XP for a third life toon to hit L20.

    Another related term you'll hear is Completionist - a toon who has TR'ed through every class and gets an option to take the Completionist feat (instead of another feat) which grants +2 to all stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by PorkZip View Post
    Honestly, I just want the higher movement speed. I hate walking.
    Work on getting House Phiarlan favor, and they'll give you a pendant that gives you a clickie for maximum speed in public areas. If you go VIP I think you get to go 10% faster still. It's better than being hasted in any case. In quest, carry haste pots and ... if you really want to go faster, then you need to know how to zerg properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PorkZip View Post
    I'm definitely going to be looking at the Multiclass forums to see what people talk about when multiclassing.

    So granted that I'm a level 2 Fighter right now, do you think I should still go through with the Barbarian/Rogue path? Or just one level of Barbarian, since I started out as a Fighter and won't take full advantage of the Rogue class skill advantage?
    I'm yet to see a multi-class Barb/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue build I like, because if I do that I wanna do traps, which a 2 level splash of rogue can't really give without gimping other areas too much for my liking. Still, if you're ignoring traps then it can gel well enough with the build, especially since you get sneak attack damage and the evasion you're after thrown in.

    To play with possibilities, have a look for Ron's character planner to get an idea for the end game HPs etc you can hit... (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/)

    But above all, Kudos to you for taking an interest in how it all works and wanting to improve. You've obviously started with the right attitude to character development, if a little adventurous.

  5. #5
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    Barbarian static faster run speed (+10%) and the sprint boost (addition +35%) is fun. Meanwhile, consider getting a few expeditious retreat clickies, such as those on http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Anger%27s_Step. Also see what stacks with what: http://ddowiki.com/page/Run_speed

    As for rogue, two things:
    * evasion requires that you wear light armor (or no armor).
    * if you group with others, they might have expectations that you can do traps. Which you probably won't be able to do, because as a new player with "experimental" approach to the game (which is OK, really) you probably won't have gear to do it.
    Last edited by cru212; 05-03-2013 at 02:37 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru212 View Post
    As for rogue, two things:
    * evasion requires that you wear light armor (or no armor).
    * if you group with others, they might have expectations that you can do traps. Which you probably won't be able to do, because as a new player with "experimental" approach to the game (which is OK, really) you probably won't have gear to do it.
    Now the light armor requirement is something I did NOT know. That puts the probability of me multiclassing as a Rogue into single digits.

    As for the traps expectation - I can't find a way to disagree with that. I'm not all that interested in disabling traps this first time around, maybe on another character (or reincarnation!).

    As for Barbarian speed and other speed boosts... those are handy. I definitely want those.

    Hmm... looks like the plan now is just to take a single level of Barbarian at level 3 for the speed boost. However, if my understanding of class capstones is correct, having only 19 levels of Fighter would prevent me from getting the Fighter capstone.

    Is the Fighter capstone of faster weapon speeds worth it? Since I'm using two handed weapons right now, that's probably a yes. And epic levels don't allow you to get the capstone.
    "Use the force, Harry." - Gandalf

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    There is actually more than DEX needed to get a decent Reflex Save. It is built on other aspects as well.

    Each class level has a Save modifier for the class that makes up a characters base Saves.

    So If we look at your base Saves going 17/2/1 Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue

    17 Fighter = Fort Save +10 / Reflex Save +5 / Will Save +5
    02 Rogue = Fort Save +0 / Reflex Save +3 / Will Save +0
    01 Brabarian = Fort Save +2 / Reflex Save + 0 / Will Save + 0

    Your characters total "Base Saves" will be
    Fort Save = +12 <- This would be the same if you were a Level 20 Fighter
    Reflex Save = +8 <- This is +2 better than a Level 20 Fighter
    Will Save = +5 <- This is -1 less than a Level 20 Fighter

    Next is your Dexterity Bonus
    With a Starting 16 Dexterity that is a +3 Reflex Save

    Sources of additional Dexterity (staying in the Heroic Realm for this discussion)

    01 - +2 Tome of Dexterity will Add 1
    01 - +2 Dexterity from a Guild Ship Buff
    01 - +2 Dexterity from Yugoloth Potions <- Earned as a Favor Reward most likely wont have access to this until 18+
    03 - +6 Dexterity Item
    02 - +3 Insight Bonus Item and +1 Exceptional Bonus Item - Greensteel weapons/item and Dragontouch Armor example sources
    03 - Resistance Item
    07 - +10 Reflex Save while using Armor from the Madness Chain Level 15. This does not stack with resistance so it is only +7 more than a resistance Item
    ---
    21

    Save Bonuses
    02 - +2 To Saves from Heroism
    02 - +2 Over Heroism is Greater Heroism
    01 - +1 Luck Bonus
    01 - Additional +1 over Luck Bonus from a Good Luck bonus
    ---
    27


    The main point I was trying to make is not how high you need to get your reflex save, but depending on the difficulties you run you need to be able to make the Save. Many strive to have their reflex save into the 30s by level 20 so as to be in the Fail on a 1 only.

    ======================
    Don't let the Light Armor requirement be an issue, much like you can switch which weapon you are using you can switch which armor you are going to be using. Yes, it does take longer to "Change" your armor and not a "in combat" activity. But If you find that encounters are putting you through a lot of Reflex saves (Generally Caster heavy or Trap Heavy) than you will be saving more resources by switching to an Evasion Layout than what your heavy armor PRR/DR will be saving you. You just wont benefit from evasion unless you are in Light armor or no armor.

    However, keep in mind by having a 16 starting Dex you will be able to squeeze more AC out of your light armor as well as more Dodge. This could make you harder to hit than when you are wearing Heavy Armor, but is will decrease your PRR (or you ability to shrug off damage taken)

    Good luck

  8. #8
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    Well, I've done it. I've leveled up to 3 as a Barbarian. Which, other than the increased movement speed, gives me access to some other feats I like.

    Not sure if I'll go with those two levels of Rogue. Probably, but I'll want to put it off a few levels to gather the equipment and reflex save needed to pull off this build effectively.
    "Use the force, Harry." - Gandalf

  9. #9
    Community Member ~Reikara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Many strive to have their reflex save into the 30s by level 20 so as to be in the Fail on a 1 only.
    This depends heavily on the difficulty and the content. For Epic Elite, which the OP may or may not be running anytime soon, a Reflex save in the 30s will be worthless. I don't know the amount necessary for Epic Hard, or even Epic Normal, but I'm pretty certain 30s won't be "Fail on a 1 only".

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