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  1. #1
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Default Manyshot as it was intended, and Ten Thousand Stars reworked

    First, Manyshot:

    Manyshot. One of the feats in DDO that I am sure gives devs cold sweats when they are developing new ranged combat abilities and feats. You'll find that if they stuck with the original 3.5 SRD, that all the problems they worry about would go away.

    -------------
    Manyshot
    Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

    As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

    For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).

    Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

    Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

    -------------
    That bolded text above means that all arrows after the first in a volley have NO CHANCE of critting. This makes manyshot as a toggle very manageable, and tempers its ability to be overpowered by other abilities.

    Basically, this means Manyshot should be several toggles: Manyshot +1, Manyshot +2, and Manyshot +3 (perhaps a Manyshot +4 for high level epic toons.) Each toggle would infer either a negative chance to hit, or a flat percentage chance that the shot is a miss regardless of roll result. To balance it for the mechanics of DDO, I'd suggest that the penalty for the first shot be 0, with an increasing negative to hit per arrow fired after. For example, a -0% BaB for the first arrow, -10% BaB for the second, -20% BaB for the third, and -30% BaB for the fourth. Alternatively, you can infer a 0/10/20/30% chance of outright missing regardless of roll.

    ---

    Now, Ten Thousand Stars

    It's obvious to me that ten thousand stars was meant to be for shuriken, but I understand that restricting a feat to a single exotic throwing weapon would hamstring its already marginal usefulness, given there are only five types of throwing weapons in total. I'd suggest opening up 10,000 stars to all throwing weapons, but disallowing its effect on arrows or bolts. It should be a clicky which throws 10 projectiles at once and refreshes every 30 seconds.

    A pretty simple solution there, but one I believe is needed.
    Last edited by Certon; 05-02-2013 at 11:19 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    First, Manyshot:Manyshot. One of the feats in DDO that I am sure gives devs cold sweats when they are developing new ranged combat abilities and feats. You'll find that if they stuck with the original 3.5 SRD, that all the problems they worry about would go away.-------------ManyshotPrerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.-------------That bolded text above means that all arrows after the first in a volley have NO CHANCE of critting. This makes manyshot as a toggle very manageable, and tempers its ability to be overpowered by other abilities.Basically, this means Manyshot should be several toggles: Manyshot +1, Manyshot +2, and Manyshot +3 (perhaps a Manyshot +4 for high level epic toons.) Each toggle would infer either a negative chance to hit, or a flat percentage chance that the shot is a miss regardless of roll result. To balance it for the mechanics of DDO, I'd suggest that the penalty for the first shot be 0, with an increasing negative to hit per arrow fired after. For example, a -0% BaB for the first arrow, -10% BaB for the second, -20% BaB for the third, and -30% BaB for the fourth. Alternatively, you can infer a 0/10/20/30% chance of outright missing regardless of roll.---Now, Ten Thousand StarsIt's obvious to me that ten thousand stars was meant to be for shuriken, but I understand that restricting a feat to a single exotic throwing weapon would hamstring its already marginal usefulness, given there are only five types of throwing weapons in total. I'd suggest opening up 10,000 stars to all throwing weapons, but disallowing its effect on arrows or bolts. It should be a clicky which throws 10 projectiles at once and refreshes every 30 seconds.A pretty simple solution there, but one I believe is needed.
    First off, are you suggesting Manyshot become just a clicky skill ("regular action")? Or an all-the-time toggle? Or are you proposing to keep it as-is, a non-permanent stance with a cooldown longer than its effect?Second, I think with the proposed changes to general ranged combat, its not just the crits that are the balance problem with Manyshot - that's really only a special case of Manyshot+Adrenaline. Other proposed changes (elemental damage, procs, stacking effects, etc.) will continue to be multiplied 2-4x by your Manyshot.

  3. #3
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid_327 View Post
    First off, are you suggesting Manyshot become just a clicky skill ("regular action")? Or an all-the-time toggle? Or are you proposing to keep it as-is, a non-permanent stance with a cooldown longer than its effect?Second, I think with the proposed changes to general ranged combat, its not just the crits that are the balance problem with Manyshot - that's really only a special case of Manyshot+Adrenaline. Other proposed changes (elemental damage, procs, stacking effects, etc.) will continue to be multiplied 2-4x by your Manyshot.
    I am suggesting Manyshot be turned into a toggle with a minus to hit % which increases with the number of additional arrows fired, and which follows the d20 SRD in that no accuracy effects (crits, effect on vorpal, and the like) occur on arrows after the first in a volley.

    I've been thinking about it, and perhaps instead of only happening on the first arrow in a volley it could happen once, at any time during the volley, so that if it happened on the second arrow, it would stop checking for accuracy effects until the first arrow of the next volley of arrows. Just a thought.

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    snip
    or you could quit crying that ranged isn't gimped anymore.

  5. #5
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    or you could quit crying that ranged isn't gimped anymore.
    Gimped? I didn't say it was gimped. I said it wasn't scalable and that it causes problems. If I was going to complain about anything, I'd complain about Slaying Arrows on Lamannia, but it's in Alpha, and I'll give them time to adjust it to all the complaints they are already getting.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Manyshot the way you put it isn't worth a single feat, let alone five of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    I am suggesting Manyshot be turned into a toggle with a minus to hit % which increases with the number of additional arrows fired, and which follows the d20 SRD in that no accuracy effects (crits, effect on vorpal, and the like) occur on arrows after the first in a volley.
    So you'd be trading a -30% hit chance on 4 arrows, for 3 additional base damage rolls with no crits? So you're trading a -30% hit chance for, probably, an extra 3d8 damage, 6d8 for Epic bows?

    I'm pretty sure you can show mathematically that the -30% to-hit on all 4 arrows is going to end up costing you more DPS, statistically, than the extra 3 base rolls will give you.

    Even if you just made it a flat to-hit penalty (which would probably make the penalty negligible for most content), that's a serious nerf to ranged combat, which is largely based on proc and crit damage, especially AAs.

  8. #8
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid_327 View Post
    So you'd be trading a -30% hit chance on 4 arrows, for 3 additional base damage rolls with no crits? So you're trading a -30% hit chance for, probably, an extra 3d8 damage, 6d8 for Epic bows?

    I'm pretty sure you can show mathematically that the -30% to-hit on all 4 arrows is going to end up costing you more DPS, statistically, than the extra 3 base rolls will give you.

    Even if you just made it a flat to-hit penalty (which would probably make the penalty negligible for most content), that's a serious nerf to ranged combat, which is largely based on proc and crit damage, especially AAs.
    Yup, unfortunately the op and those that support this kind of an idea seem to be upset that their max dps barbs fighters ext aren't top of the chart in every fight now and that archery is now something other than a flavor build. Think back to pre-u14 archers except for the few monchers that existed back then were looked at as gimp flavor builds that really didn't add much dps. (yes some people got them viable but it took much much more work) now your average barbarian and your average archer are about even with the barb doing constant high dps and the archer doing medium dps with high burst dps. This seems like an excellent way to have some balance between classes where yes you give up x to gain y but which one is better is situational and a personal preference. Asking for nerfs to ranged screams to me that the poster actually is saying "I'm not top of the charts anymore fix it naow"

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    You nerf many shot, and Ranged becomes as useless as throwing weapons. Sure you can sit back hit and take no damage for no spell point cost, but your taking way too long as well.

    I have a better idea. Remove 10k stars completely. You'll still need zen archery for earth stance but hear me out.
    Make manyshot a passive/toggle.

    Similar to how Chestblessing is random off CHA, and 10k is random off WIS, make it so that based off of your Dexterity, you have a chance of shooting extra arrows. (like the extra shot chance they're introducing with the enhancemens.)
    Every point of dex bonus gives you a 2% extra shot chance.

    So if your at 50 dex (god forbid) you have +20 which = 40%

    if you have +6 bab the max is 2, 11 is 3, and 16 is 4.

    so now whenever you shoot you get

    Arrow 1 (Automatic)
    Arrow 2 (40%)
    Arrow 3 (40%)
    Arrow 4 (40%)

    Net net, you'll be shooting 2 arrows almost all the time (be it the second third or fourth proccing while the others dont), frequently you'll get 3, and rarely you'll get 4.
    Now clearly the numbers should be tweaked but i was giving an example. Getting only 40% from a 50 dex is a bit too low, although there are the new enhancments which will increase that 'extra shot chance' sometimes.

    This solves the sustain issue, removes the stupid amount of burst, and that means with fury shot, you activate fury than slayer... you'll probably get 2 arrows, maybe 3. a good possibility of only 1, but very rarely will you get 4 uber-adrenalined arrows.
    Last edited by Krenshar; 05-13-2013 at 04:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    ... now your average barbarian and your average archer are about even with the barb doing constant high dps and the archer doing medium dps with high burst dps. This seems like an excellent way to have some balance between classes where yes you give up x to gain y but which one is better is situational and a personal preference...
    While doing ranged you don't need to get your hands dirty. And that's fine - get some sprint boost, solo ee, kite the stuff around, turn the quest into a circus for all i care. But matching barbarian dps while away from the danger? You call that balance?

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruda View Post
    While doing ranged you don't need to get your hands dirty. And that's fine - get some sprint boost, solo ee, kite the stuff around, turn the quest into a circus for all i care. But matching barbarian dps while away from the danger? You call that balance?
    You're only out of danger if you're exploiting safe spots. Don't believe me roll a ranged and take your hands off the keyboard after you get aggro.

  12. #12
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenshar View Post
    You nerf many shot, and Ranged becomes as useless as throwing weapons. Sure you can sit back hit and take no damage for no spell point cost, but your taking way too long as well.

    I have a better idea. Remove 10k stars completely. You'll still need zen archery for earth stance but hear me out.
    Make manyshot a passive/toggle.

    Similar to how Chestblessing is random off CHA, and 10k is random off WIS, make it so that based off of your Dexterity, you have a chance of shooting extra arrows. (like the extra shot chance they're introducing with the enhancemens.)
    Every point of dex bonus gives you a 2% extra shot chance.

    So if your at 50 dex (god forbid) you have +20 which = 40%

    if you have +6 bab the max is 2, 11 is 3, and 16 is 4.

    so now whenever you shoot you get

    Arrow 1 (Automatic)
    Arrow 2 (40%)
    Arrow 3 (40%)
    Arrow 4 (40%)

    Net net, you'll be shooting 2 arrows almost all the time (be it the second third or fourth proccing while the others dont), frequently you'll get 3, and rarely you'll get 4.
    Now clearly the numbers should be tweaked but i was giving an example. Getting only 40% from a 50 dex is a bit too low, although there are the new enhancments which will increase that 'extra shot chance' sometimes.

    This solves the sustain issue, removes the stupid amount of burst, and that means with fury shot, you activate fury than slayer... you'll probably get 2 arrows, maybe 3. a good possibility of only 1, but very rarely will you get 4 uber-adrenalined arrows.
    I promise I am not being sarcastic when I say this:

    This idea is 10,000 times better than the idea I initially proposed!

    Oh, devs, if you'd only do this... my AA would thank you.

  13. #13
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yup, unfortunately the op and those that support this kind of an idea seem to be upset that their max dps barbs fighters ext aren't top of the chart in every fight now and that archery is now something other than a flavor build. Think back to pre-u14 archers except for the few monchers that existed back then were looked at as gimp flavor builds that really didn't add much dps. (yes some people got them viable but it took much much more work) now your average barbarian and your average archer are about even with the barb doing constant high dps and the archer doing medium dps with high burst dps. This seems like an excellent way to have some balance between classes where yes you give up x to gain y but which one is better is situational and a personal preference. Asking for nerfs to ranged screams to me that the poster actually is saying "I'm not top of the charts anymore fix it naow"
    I have an AA I enjoy quite a bit, but I don't like DDO's "house version" of Manyshot. I don't think any of my toons are at the top of the damage charts, though my barbarian may have been a long time ago when supreme cleave had little to no refresh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You're only out of danger if you're exploiting safe spots. Don't believe me roll a ranged and take your hands off the keyboard after you get aggro.
    Yeah i'm totally rolling a ranged asap to test that thesis. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    I promise I am not being sarcastic when I say this:

    This idea is 10,000 times better than the idea I initially proposed!

    Oh, devs, if you'd only do this... my AA would thank you.
    Again, the numbers may need tweaking and stuff, but i think that finally, for the first time in all of ranger history, Dex = DPS is a good thing.

  16. #16
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    Default Step away from the nerf bat...

    Seriously - nothing good comes from this.

    Players talking about nerfs to current builds only creates balance problems that are unintended and not thought out.

    Remember - DDO is not DnD 3.5 or even DnD 4.0. Nowhere in PnP D&D do I recall seeing ANY creature with over 150K HP that can hit for 300 - 600 damage or even 1200 from a spell.

    Did anyone complain about the way manyshot worked BEFORE it got it's high burst damage from FoTW?
    NO - because [most] archers weren't worth building.

    So please - tell me - what is your motive behind nerfing archers? I'm really curious because I know of no reason to do so at this time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    Seriously - nothing good comes from this.

    Players talking about nerfs to current builds only creates balance problems that are unintended and not thought out.

    Remember - DDO is not DnD 3.5 or even DnD 4.0. Nowhere in PnP D&D do I recall seeing ANY creature with over 150K HP that can hit for 300 - 600 damage or even 1200 from a spell.

    Did anyone complain about the way manyshot worked BEFORE it got it's high burst damage from FoTW?
    NO - because [most] archers weren't worth building.

    So please - tell me - what is your motive behind nerfing archers? I'm really curious because I know of no reason to do so at this time.
    The motive is that it becomes almost mandatory for any DPS worth his salt to fit in Manyshot and try to be in fury of the wild, because of how OP it is. I don't play DDO to have to live with cookie cutter builds. The other stupid thing they need to remove is the crit on earth stance for instance. why? because now everyone will play 11 something, 8 fighter, 1 monk, with the two feats to get earth stance on whatever weapon they want, if they want to max their dps.
    its stupid that earth stance is litterally so powerful that people will change their whole build to get it.

    same reasoning with manyshot.

  18. #18
    Hero thesnoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenshar View Post
    The motive is that it becomes almost mandatory for any DPS worth his salt to fit in Manyshot and try to be in fury of the wild, because of how OP it is.
    You can stop right there - thank you for confirming my suspicions.

    As a min/maxer, I'd say you're probably right.

    for everyone else - totally wrong...just sayin'
    "Melkorr (Completionist "Toaster of Vengeance") ~ Angrond (TWF Jugg) ~ Telchacar ~ Celebrimor (Bank) ~ Manados
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesnoman View Post
    You can stop right there - thank you for confirming my suspicions.

    As a min/maxer, I'd say you're probably right.

    for everyone else - totally wrong...just sayin'
    *facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm* the whole reason everyone is complaining is because the 'max' is manyshot, and by way WAY too much. I can do 60% of the black dragons HP in 20 seconds. Which is why it need to be taken down a notch.
    So if your not concerned with min/maxing why are you here commenting?

  20. #20
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    Why all these calls to nerf abilities made "Epic" by epic destinies? So many shot with something to boost damage like certain FoTW abilities feels powerful, it should. Look at lily petal on a stunned mob, pretty powerful, nearly spammable. Look at boulder toss amp'd by untyped damage modifiers, nearly spammable, pretty powerful. Master's blitz, shiradi procs on 1sp magic missle, etc.

    And then look at the hit points of enemies in epic elite content. That is the point of having epic moments, to make that content possible.

    Hasbro is involved in making some other stuff that some people may be interested in: My Little Pony, Nerf, Playskool, Easy-Bake Oven

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