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  1. #1
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Monster saves, what if we just got rid of them?

    Ok before the explosion people lets take a deep breath and really calm down and look at this issue from all angles. BTW I DO suggest we keep our saves against monster spells (avoid coding issues by simply giving all monsters a saves debuff of 100) so we dont have to create separate spells for monsters and PCs.


    First lets acknowledge the facts=

    1. Monster saves have been an issue since BETA (example= wands/scrolls/clickies are useless against monsters)
    2. Monster saves in current game require allot of min/maxxing to reach
    3. Monster saves in epic content are often considered UNreachable, and thus ignored
    4. Monster saves against combat feats ignore dex builds in addition to above
    5. HUGE list of spells/items/abilities in DDO considered useless due to not being able to reach a high enough save
    5. DDO at endgame has become a game where you primarily use spells/weapons/abilities/effects that have no save, because most others will fail


    Now lets say we just plain did away with monster saves? Whats the worst that would happen?
    I can tell you= over abuse of instant death and crowd control,
    but that is easily remedied=

    1. Instant death and crowd control effects receive high SP costs, but heck, they work now!
    2. Monsters when hit with a crowd control effect/melee ability receive a short duration "buff" making them immune to other CC effects for X amount of time, and all CC effects can break earlier on damage (it is still possible to keep current monsters perma controlled, but not while being damaged)
    3. Feats and enhancements related to crowd control decrease the likely-hood of breaking on damage.
    4. Caster MAIN stats adds a percentage to this for spell CC effects, and gives a percentage of extra damage on spells (ability modifier for casters main stat= flat % increase in overall spell damage and strength of crowd control spells less likely to break on damage)
    5. Now ALL melee use trip/sunder/stun etc! Work with party for characters with highest strength CC (least likely to break on damage) in order to maximize efficacy.
    6. Addition of a few ranged CC effects added as feats (1 or 2 for free like melee, rest purchasable as feats)
    7. Monk stunning fist increases in efficacy as monk levels increase (so everyone doesn't just splash 1 monk level for super stunning)
    8. Stunning/vertigo/shattering etc. now increase efficacy abilities (monster has less chance to break CC on damage)



    What this change will mean=

    1. HUGE return of spell functionality to DDO (DDO has lots of spells, yet most of them are worthless)
    2. Melee feats are actually USEABLE to all melee builds! (wow! I actually got a sunder off!)
    3. Game more accessible to new players (they dont know which spells etc. are considered **** in current game)
    4. MORE strategy in parties and epic content, NOT less!
    5. Wands/scrolls/clickies are USEABLE! (gasp!)
    6. MORE FUN! =)



    P.S. Monsters IMMUNE to various forms of CC will remain IMMUNE

    P.P.S. This change does not dumb-down DDO, rather it increases the level of strategy in DDO through totally party management of CC effects (dont forget monsters get a BUFF when hit with a CC effect, making them immune to further CC for X seconds, prioritize CCings monsters and NOT hitting them so as not to break CC, and having party members with the highest EFFICACY CC use it on the monster being beaten, so it is least likely to break)
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 05-30-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I don't agree that it would be a simple thing to implement, the system is designed like a web, where different scripts refer to different effects, you can't easily remove them without completely destroying the game. This would break so many things that it would boggle your mind, and most importantly, the developers as well.

    These changes would be akin to removing an entire section of a web, with all it's interconnected-ness and expecting to catch the same number of flies. You can't be re-writing that much code, knowing how it would affect everything else, and expecting to keep everyone on the same page, watch Jurassic Park where he talks about the White Rabbit Object.

    Now, I am not saying that the automation that occurs at Jurassic Park are on the same scale, but when DDO was floundering in its past, I am sure that a lot of the coding those programmers did was lost and necessitated a lot of automation to get things to continue smoothly.

  3. #3
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    This is too fundamental a change to suggest without fleshing out a better alternative...

    Getting rid of the saves mechanism entirely (aside from abandoning a fundamental D&D mechanic) would completely front-load the combat system - L1 skills would remain fully viable through endgame, without needing any kind of boosting through enhancements or feats or gear. Everyone could take Stunning Blow and have a fully functional stun, even arcanes with dumped STR. Well, a daze anyway, since it'd have a chance to break on damage....

    Likewise, 60% of the arcane gear and enh/feats are designed towards boosting your DC. Heighten becomes obsolete, spell focus becomes obsolete, DC-boosting gear becomes obsolete, etc. All spells always work, all the time - so you just slap on Maximize and Empower and go to town with 100% full damage. Wail and Implosion are guaranteed AOE kills. Anything with a recurring save (eg Flesh to Stone, via spell or item effect) would always give you the maximum possible duration.

    Even if they got a CC-preventing buff when the CC clears, it doesnt really matter - you could kill things so fast that they wouldnt get a chance for CC to wear off. Water khopesh, Great Cleave, and everything around you is paralyzed for a full minute, pick them off at your leisure one by one, even in EE. No one non-boss monster is so powerful that they're challenging just by themselves.

    No, the problem isnt with the saves mechanism itself, the problem is the arms race between DCs and monster saves, based on an additive system, because a dedicated caster with gear and feats and enhancements can get +30 or 40 or more points to their DCs than a splasher, and the window between guaranteed hit and guaranteed miss is, of course, only 1d20.

    Keep saves, but change it to a system of diminishing returns, where every point past some value (20? 30?) begins to count less and less in the actual DC-vs-save roll. Ie a DC of 40 would only "work" like 35, and a DC of 50 would only "work" like maybe 39, something like that. So even if you can only get your DC up to 30, you still have a shot at landing effects, instead of them being guaranteed immune to anything under DC 45 or whatever.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Couple things I disagree with...

    1. Wands and Scrolls have been useful since beta, even DC based ones. They do have a lower DC, but when used properly understanding that they will not have the same "Effect" percentage as casting from memory you start to see the correlation. As an example I went through Tide Turns on elite utilizing a Charm Person, Charm Monster and Suggestion wands, fighting and killing only what I needed to on a Level 9 Wizard. But I also do have 3 Wizard Past Lives and Invested in two tiers of Wand/Scroll Heightening.

    2. That removing saves for mobs is a good solution - Doing this would mean that Feats and Enhancements that boost DCs which are currently options for improving your character become worthless. It also means that a Caster with minimal Casting stat requirements will be just as effective as Max Casting Stat casters. This would mean that a Caster can do even more than they could now, including Tripping or Stunning.


    The better solution is to have Turbine review the CR to HD calculation to determine why Mobs Saves have become so out of line. Similar with what they have done recently with the CR to HD changes of Undead.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    2. That removing saves for mobs is a good solution - Doing this would mean that Feats and Enhancements that boost DCs which are currently options for improving your character become worthless. It also means that a Caster with minimal Casting stat requirements will be just as effective as Max Casting Stat casters. This would mean that a Caster can do even more than they could now, including Tripping or Stunning.
    Or, conversely, everyone can just stock up on Scrolls/Wands of Sleep and Grease (or just splash 1 Wiz/Sorc/etc.), and have guaranteed AOE CCs at L25 EE that last for 20+ seconds

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    No, the problem isnt with the saves mechanism itself, the problem is the arms race between DCs and monster saves, based on an additive system, because a dedicated caster with gear and feats and enhancements can get +30 or 40 or more points to their DCs than a splasher, and the window between guaranteed hit and guaranteed miss is, of course, only 1d20.

    Keep saves, but change it to a system of diminishing returns, where every point past some value (20? 30?) begins to count less and less in the actual DC-vs-save roll. Ie a DC of 40 would only "work" like 35, and a DC of 50 would only "work" like maybe 39, something like that. So even if you can only get your DC up to 30, you still have a shot at landing effects, instead of them being guaranteed immune to anything under DC 45 or whatever.
    As much as I dislike moving yet another mechanic away from the D20 system, I think it would be for the best. Saves and DC potential (for both players and monsters) have been inflated just a bit too far.

    Its important to keep in mind that any changes to the saves system would also affect players equally. So I'm going to have to disagree with the OP suggestion

    Personally, I'd like to see a system where the minimum chance to succeed is raised from 5% to maybe 25%, and maximum is also lowered to 75% from 95%. Then, take all the specific save/DC feats or enhancements and have them raise or lower these caps in addition to increasing DC/saves. This way, only specializing in a specific school or save (or having specific class based bonuses) would give you the current possible 95% chance success rate. For example, any character could splash 2 rogue levels for evasion, but only having more rogue/monk levels or taking feats like lightning reflexes could get you to 95% success.
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  7. #7
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    First off since when is dc casting dead. I just ran an ee tor a couple of nights agp with a pm who instakilled everything in site.by the time i ran up to anything it was gone. This ia a terrible idea. If yoj want monsters that just stand there while you beat on them and cookie cutter builds try nwo.

  8. #8
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post

    Personally, I'd like to see a system where the minimum chance to succeed is raised from 5% to maybe 25%, and maximum is also lowered to 75% from 95%. Then, take all the specific save/DC feats or enhancements and have them raise or lower these caps in addition to increasing DC/saves. This way, only specializing in a specific school or save (or having specific class based bonuses) would give you the current possible 95% chance success rate. For example, any character could splash 2 rogue levels for evasion, but only having more rogue/monk levels or taking feats like lightning reflexes could get you to 95% success.
    I am going to be completely honest here and say that i think your suggestion is amazing! I think your solution is perfect, balanced and incredibly easy to implement. Allthough i do still hold that those spells should have an increased mana cost to compensate. Well done my friend!
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  9. #9
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Sorry this is a really really really horrible terrible bad idea period!!!!! Why not just have monsters fall dead when a caster walks in a room?

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  10. #10
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    if they have no saves, we shouldn't have em

    with that, ed and new enhancements we have a new wow

    no ty, high saves are needed, not everything nor everybody is capable of doing elite(or epic elite), as it should

    and there are really few spells that don't work on ee, just need to have the right dc

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Now lets say we just plain did away with monster saves?
    But that's not even what you proposed...

    Instead, you want to having mobs auto-fail the first save, and then repeatedly make saves afterwards, right? On some complicated new system that's effectively equivalent to the current DC system.

    Oh, except that won't matter versus insta-kills, which will always just kill. Tough EE critter? Just wave your Wand of Phantasmal Killer and he is no more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Feats and enhancements related to crowd control decrease the likely-hood of breaking on damage.
    You mean, like...raising the save DC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Caster MAIN stats adds a percentage to this for spell CC effects, and gives a percentage of extra damage on spells (ability modifier for casters main stat= flat % increase in overall spell damage and strength of crowd control spells less likely to break on damage)
    You mean, like...raising the save DC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    melee use trip/sunder/stun etc! Work with party for characters with highest strength CC (least likely to break on damage) in order to maximize efficacy.
    You mean, like...raising the save DC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Monk stunning fist increases in efficacy as monk levels increase (so everyone doesn't just splash 1 monk level for super stunning)
    You mean, like...raising the save DC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Stunning/vertigo/shattering etc. now increase efficacy abilities (monster has less chance to break CC on damage)
    You mean, like...raising the save DC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    MORE strategy in parties and epic content, NOT less!
    "Everything always works all the time!" You have a strange idea of strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    MORE FUN! =)
    Not all of us find easy-button give-away fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    This change does not dumb-down DDO, rather it increases the level of strategy
    This escapes being a complete dumb-down only by the convoluted and overly complicated new "break" system you're proposing. But it still dumbs things down and removes any semblance of strategy.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    The better solution is to have Turbine review the CR to HD calculation to determine why Mobs Saves have become so out of line. Similar with what they have done recently with the CR to HD changes of Undead.
    /signed

    Epic Elite VoN quests are level 24. Epic Elite GH quests, level 26. That's only 2 levels difference. So why, with the exact same DC on my spells, do I land 95% in VoN, and 5% in GH?

  13. #13
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    No. Premise is flawed, conclusions are flawed, idea is flawed.

    If you think these things are issues, the solution is not to move even further away from the source, but to work to bring the game back in line with that source.

    Jeez, I swear, something I think people don't actually want to play a D&D-based game.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    The better solution is to have Turbine review the CR to HD calculation to determine why Mobs Saves have become so out of line. Similar with what they have done recently with the CR to HD changes of Undead.
    For the most part, I find this to be the best solution. That being said, I brought my first life cleric through vale and IQ with a +2 necro and evo DC items, a 17 base (+5 level ups) wisdom, getting my wisdom to a comfy 34-35 (36-37 with ship buffs) by the time I was at level 18 with feats, gear, etc. I only had a +2 evo feat bonus, no necro bonus.

    I could generally succeed with a destruction on casters, occasionally on archers. I didn't bother to use it on melee enemies. I could -easily- use destruction on the battle clerics in IQ2 without epic destinies at levels 19 and 20. When a destruction didn't work, a cometfall usually worked in its place- especially on divines, even without a DC boosting item. I was not working on being a no fail caster. Basically, I could destruct divines with a 75% chance, and everything else was lower... but a dead divine is a dead divine.

    By the time I was in kings forest (and the underdark), I could still destructo necromancers, spell casters, and the occasionally archer. My problem became spell pen, where I would fail on a roll of 5 (I've since remedied this with a red aug throwing knife loaded with improved shattermantle). A successful fort saves still dealt around 500 damage. Again, cometfall also also a win -against the right mob-.


    So, in essence, when people say DC casting is dead, I look at it like this. DC casting indiscriminately with a 95% to 100% success rate chance on all mobs is likely dead. On divines? Someone must be able to land a save- maybe not a will save. On high fort melee types? I'm sure necro spells are going to be tough. On rangers..? Rangers have evasion and moderately low will saves. Hold spell + high damage aoes should at least do a good bit of damage to them.

    Of course, I'm sure there's someone out there that is being very careful to get the weakness of the enemies out there. DC casting would be truly dead if a destruction only worked at a 50% to 75% ratio on low fort save mobs in epics, and if that's the case right now, then I'd say it's time to look at it, and Enoach's point hit's the spot- they already did it for undead.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroplanefly View Post
    Of course, I'm sure there's someone out there that is being very careful to get the weakness of the enemies out there. DC casting would be truly dead if a destruction only worked at a 50% to 75% ratio on low fort save mobs in epics, and if that's the case right now, then I'd say it's time to look at it, and Enoach's point hit's the spot- they already did it for undead.
    DC casting works fine in easy content or on easy difficulties. But, for me, it's pretty clearly dead in EE GH. 50% would be wonderful! 5% is what I get.

    I was finding a 51 DC to be useless, so I swapped around feats, gear, twists. Got up to a 57 DC...and it's still useless. (Useless in EE GH, that is. 57 is uber in older EE Eberron content, and workable in EE Faerun.)

  16. #16
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroplanefly View Post
    For the most part, I find this to be the best solution. That being said, I brought my first life cleric through vale and IQ with a +2 necro and evo DC items, a 17 base (+5 level ups) wisdom, getting my wisdom to a comfy 34-35 (36-37 with ship buffs) by the time I was at level 18 with feats, gear, etc. I only had a +2 evo feat bonus, no necro bonus.

    I could generally succeed with a destruction on casters, occasionally on archers. I didn't bother to use it on melee enemies. I could -easily- use destruction on the battle clerics in IQ2 without epic destinies at levels 19 and 20. When a destruction didn't work, a cometfall usually worked in its place- especially on divines, even without a DC boosting item. I was not working on being a no fail caster. Basically, I could destruct divines with a 75% chance, and everything else was lower... but a dead divine is a dead divine.

    By the time I was in kings forest (and the underdark), I could still destructo necromancers, spell casters, and the occasionally archer. My problem became spell pen, where I would fail on a roll of 5 (I've since remedied this with a red aug throwing knife loaded with improved shattermantle). A successful fort saves still dealt around 500 damage. Again, cometfall also also a win -against the right mob-.
    What you describe is exactly how the DC casting system should work (and does for the most part in all content up to vale/IQ and some easier normal/hard epic content.)
    To summarize:
    If you max your casting stat and wear level appropriate gear you can land DC spells >75% of the time on low save targets, ~50% on mid save targets and <25% on high save targets.

    The first place this generalized statement doesn't hold true is (was) amrath. Mobs were balanced around newly released PREs/capstones, so you had to either specialize or get temporary buffs to hit the 75/50/25 marks. But nobody cares about amrath anymore...

    Endgame now is:
    If you max your casting stat and wear level appropriate gear ( +8/+1ex/+3ins stat gear and epic spell focus item) you can land DC spells roughly 5% of the time on kobolds...


    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    No. Premise is flawed, conclusions are flawed, idea is flawed.

    If you think these things are issues, the solution is not to move even further away from the source, but to work to bring the game back in line with that source.

    Jeez, I swear, something I think people don't actually want to play a D&D-based game.
    The idea in the OP may be flawed, but the premise isn't...

    The issue is not only a matter of tweaking monster hit dice or saves. (which I think may be necessary in some cases) The main issue is that spell school specialization and the number of unsustainable/rare buffs (bard songs, abishi cookies, completionist, etc) have been inflated past the point where a D20 can handle.

    The typical "maxed out" caster (but not specialized) has roughly 50 in their casting stat (18base +6 level +13 item +3 class + 5 tome +1human +2 yugo +2 capstone).
    Which gives you a DC around 43 (10 + 9 spell level + 20 stat + 3 epic focus item +1 PL:wizard):
    Otherwise known as worthless.

    By specializing however you add roughly +13 (+5 stat increases from ED/twists/feats +3 magister +3 feat +2PRE) for a DC around 56. Going even further you can add another +10 or so from completionist, bard, ship, store, abishi, etc...

    Its just not possible to balance saves on a D20 when you have up to a 20 DC difference between two otherwise identical, maxed out, and fully geared characters just by specializing and having buffs that can't legitimated be expected as standard (even for EE content...) Difficult to acquire stats such as completionist, bards or store pots should be for helping you land spells on the hard mobs, not a requirement to just barely land a finger on a caster after energy drain....

    While I'm all for staying as close to the older AD&D rulesets as possible (I was actually just playing baldurs gate while internet was down and would love to see things like spell slots replacing spell points and where a +3 longsword is a good weapon and 100 hp is a tank) but thats not DDO, and DDO has evolved/transitioned/devolved (whichever term suits you opinion best) past the D20 for Armor Class, and it really needs to again for saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    DC casting works fine in easy content or on easy difficulties. But, for me, it's pretty clearly dead in EE GH. 50% would be wonderful! 5% is what I get.

    I was finding a 51 DC to be useless, so I swapped around feats, gear, twists. Got up to a 57 DC...and it's still useless. (Useless in EE GH, that is. 57 is uber in older EE Eberron content, and workable in EE Faerun.)
    50% would indeed be wonderful. I'd settle for 50% as effective as a 1st life shiradi spamming 1st level magic missiles as well
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