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  1. #61
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    /breathes

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    9th level spell slots are indeed vary valuable for non-shiradi sorcs. Sure, shiradi sorcs are OP, but it's hardly because they can splash for divine grace.

    So what this comes down to is there is one build, and one build only, where divine grace is an OP 2 level spash. And that's shiradi sorcs. And your answer to this problem is to nerf divine grace??!! Yeah, that's the problem with shiradi sorcs, divine f***ing grace.

  2. #62
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Balance is severely overrated, some gamers learn this secret, some strive for balance never really understanding that balance is rock paper scissors.
    Balance is vanilla and uniformity.

    D&D spent the better part of its history 4 decades thumbing its nose at balance, and yet managing to be one of the greatest game systems ever devised.

    A fantasy wizard that has achieved mastery of his craft is supposed to be an army destroying demi god.

    What fun is playing a wizard that is "balanced". And like a hapless side character in a fantasy novel that can't effect much and has no real power?

    Do you really want to play the inept powerless side character? Don't you want your character to shrug off an attack and be Death dealer, or Raistlen, or Conan?

    How's this for heroic fantasy; Gandolf rode over the mountain, and some garden variety orc shamen cast hold on him, while the local giant rat population gnawed him to death. The end... awesome.

    I want Sturm to make his save and be the hero... I don't want him to spend the entire book eating res cakes lol. Naturally characters need to have heroic abilities that don't feel trivial and meager. Balance be dammed.
    Big words, but balanceless games just doesnt work. I rather have a DDO working and you not playing Gandalf, thank you.

  3. #63
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    Default Dear OP!!!

    There is one word why there area ton of PPL running with 2 levels of pally for their builds.

    BOOM!!!!!!!

    Until the devs can actually balance the release of content vs Mob CR vs Character @ level possibilities this will always be a problem.

    FOT was too easy then they intorduced the stupid Boom!!! mechanic which was way OP then scaled it a wee bit down some more.

    EGH Trash Mob Cr's are higher than almost any Boss CR previous to U17... Hence the need for max saves especially reflex in some EH and a lot of EE content.

    Its trivial but why take it out on players adapting vs what the Devs broke in the first place.

    Teth and some top tier players have asked on many occasions to not just provide stupid high Mob Cr's with infinite hp. They asked for mobs with debuffs and more challenge coming from an AI point of view and lower CR, HP but more difficult to confront..... This makes a lot of sense as regulating and balancing game vs player vs mobs. But this would require a lot of re-tooling the game which Turbine does not have on its agenda at all sadly.

    Advocate balance before nerfs.

    The devs decided to go this route of loot scaled to difficulty so people want the best loot and need the best possible saves to go with the content they are running. And this specific loot policy is making it too easy for a lot of people to get their gear done fast and get very bored of the game vs the future release of content and apparent lack of polish on the games current issues.

    And if you running a Max cha build atm you not doing many things right and need to stop complaining and go back to Ron's Character planner Maybe if you running a chest blesser to bless my chests possibly

    Its not all about the 2 Pally levels, certain destiny abilities in combination with the 2 levels give the players the means to play at the EE end game content these days.

    This is not a time to be calling out for nerfs and **** more people off, the game population is dwindling and the bugs are not getting fixed on top of this recent forum fiasco.....

    Laters and /not signed btw.

  4. #64
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Big words, but balanceless games just doesnt work. I rather have a DDO working and you not playing Gandalf, thank you.
    Quick! Somebody tell Kevin Siembieda that his twenty year old game called Rifts that has the game balance of a drunken epileptic elephant on a unicycle that his flagship product doesn't work! He desperately needs to know that a game where unskilled vagabonds and drunkard saloon bums adventure alongside godlings and dragons absolutely cannot work and is totally unfeasible! You know... Despite having done so for over two decades now...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Balance is severely overrated, some gamers learn this secret, some strive for balance never really understanding that balance is rock paper scissors.
    Balance is vanilla and uniformity.
    No, balance is everyone being able to contribute equally. Doesn't matter that its in different ways, just that no character is eclipsed by another.

    A fantasy wizard that has achieved mastery of his craft is supposed to be an army destroying demi god.

    What fun is playing a wizard that is "balanced". And like a hapless side character in a fantasy novel that can't effect much and has no real power?

    Do you really want to play the inept powerless side character? Don't you want your character to shrug off an attack and be Death dealer, or Raistlen, or Conan?
    Precisely. Unless it is a specific concept you have in mind, no one likes to play the useless sidekick.
    BMX Bandit might be a powerful character when paired with Gymkhana girl, but not when paired with Angel Summoner. Its the balance within the PCs, not the world as a whole.

    Particularly true in MMOs where there is no narrative tricks for an author to make an underpowered character relevant, and you are competing for getting into groups. If the game is full of Angel Summoners, few will want to accept BMX Bandits into their group because the game is balanced around the Angel summoners.

  6. #66
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    If the game is full of Angel Summoners, few will want to accept BMX Bandits into their group because THEIR game is balanced around the Angel summoners.
    ftfy

  7. #67
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Balance is severely overrated, some gamers learn this secret, some strive for balance never really understanding that balance is rock paper scissors.
    Balance is vanilla and uniformity.

    D&D spent the better part of its history 4 decades thumbing its nose at balance, and yet managing to be one of the greatest game systems ever devised.

    A fantasy wizard that has achieved mastery of his craft is supposed to be an army destroying demi god.

    What fun is playing a wizard that is "balanced". And like a hapless side character in a fantasy novel that can't effect much and has no real power?

    Do you really want to play the inept powerless side character? Don't you want your character to shrug off an attack and be Death dealer, or Raistlen, or Conan?

    How's this for heroic fantasy; Gandolf rode over the mountain, and some garden variety orc shamen cast hold on him, while the local giant rat population gnawed him to death. The end... awesome.

    I want Sturm to make his save and be the hero... I don't want him to spend the entire book eating res cakes lol. Naturally characters need to have heroic abilities that don't feel trivial and meager. Balance be dammed.
    Very well put, sums it up well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality.

  8. #68

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    Divine grace is not overpowered. We went from having a lot of immunities in game to having some immunities and the need to splash a class, invest heavily in what many use as a dumpstat, force ourselves into LG alignment, and just gain some nice bonuses and get some immunities back in epic levels that we used to have in heroic levels.

    Investing in CHA requires investing in a stat that takes away from investing in other stats that would typically be more important for an opportunity cost that goes beyond just the 2 level dip. It's not hard to get a nice bonus but it is harder to reach the numbers in the OP.

    This is an ability that also scales with character level because CHA scales up with available equipment, enhancements, destinies, and tomes.

    I wouldn't worry about nerfing divine grace over the one class that really makes the significant use of it.

    I'm pro balance but this is one of those things that looks like a nice bonus more than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  9. #69
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Big words, but balanceless games just doesnt work. I rather have a DDO working and you not playing Gandalf, thank you.
    D&D didn't work for forty years? Interesting. Look at the most balanced MMO's most are PvP centric and have very rock paper scissors gameplay. The main difference between the warriors 1000 point melee attack with 6 second cool down and the warlocks 1000 point touch spell with 6 second cool down is one is red glowey and they other is purple with gold sparkles. Such games tend to have massively trivial increments in power because the easiest way to maintain a strict balance is to make the available power very weak.

    My all time favorite example is the Earthquake spell in Ultima Online, a 9th lvl spell the epitome of power, that couldn't kill a screen full of rabbits, because it was deemed too unbalanced in PvP.

    Balance or at least overly balanced MMO's tend to have cookie cutter abilities where variety is purely cosmetic some good examples in NWO.

    Now don't get me wrong a weak class that's not fun or is behind in power and lacking popularity should be buffed. But that's just about making a class fun and not wasting the development resources that went into that class.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpemontis View Post

    And if you running a Max cha build atm you not doing many things right and need to stop complaining and go back to Ron's Character planner Maybe if you running a chest blesser to bless my chests possibly
    Actually, as a FvS I quite think that running max CHA is a decent plan atm. Wis matters little as its nigh impossible to make implosion work due to bugs and high SR - while Avenging Light, Divine Wrath and a twisted Energy Burst all work well with CHA DC and offer cheap and reliable damage - and the extra CHA even provides extra SP as well. Sure, BB suffers but with its low MCL it doesnt really cut it in EE anyway. I definitely kill stuff far better with a CHA FvS than with my DC evoker FvS build, have much more mana and use far less of it so shrines are much less of an issue. Others mileage may vary obviously.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    /breathes

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    If you think two extra 9th level spells are not good for sorcs, you're wrong and not very experienced with this game. Stop with this rude dismissive attitude. There's nothing more annoying in MMOs than someone who doesn't know the game as well acting like a petulant child to people with more knowledge having an honest discussion.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Actually, as a FvS I quite think that running max CHA is a decent plan atm. Wis matters little as its nigh impossible to make implosion work due to bugs and high SR - while Avenging Light, Divine Wrath and a twisted Energy Burst all work well with CHA DC and offer cheap and reliable damage - and the extra CHA even provides extra SP as well. Sure, BB suffers but with its low MCL it doesnt really cut it in EE anyway. I definitely kill stuff far better with a CHA FvS than with my DC evoker FvS build, have much more mana and use far less of it so shrines are much less of an issue. Others mileage may vary obviously.
    Agreed, CHA based FvS is a relatively strong template compared to most other builds out there. Huge AoE DPS and tough as nails thanks to high PRR and the saves to match.

  13. #73
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmew3 View Post
    If you think two extra 9th level spells are not good for sorcs, you're wrong and not very experienced with this game. Stop with this rude dismissive attitude. There's nothing more annoying in MMOs than someone who doesn't know the game as well acting like a petulant child to people with more knowledge having an honest discussion.
    No, i think you are the one who doesnt know epic elite quests very well, tell me how all those wails/disjunctions/mass holds/energy draining whit a recover rate of 1 level each 2 secs or that short cd of PW:K works for you.

    And if you play EH you just go in draconic and 1-shoot whole rooms anyway.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    No, i think you are the one who doesnt know epic elite quests very well, tell me how all those wails/disjunctions/mass holds/energy draining whit a recover rate of 1 level each 2 secs or that short cd of PW:K works for you.

    And if you play EH you just go in draconic and 1-shoot whole rooms anyway.
    You are demonstrably wrong. Even if you don't have the DCs to actually insta-kill, wail is extremely high and efficient DPS. Likewise, a rotation of enervation and energy drain is the highest DPS possible from ANY class on orange named mobs.

    Also, please stop assuming you know anything about the posters you are talking to when you don't have as much experience. It makes you look foolish, and is really very childish.

  15. #75
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    So, was doing one of the quests that lead to the rise of the shiradi casters (an u16 quest, specifically Rest Stop)...and I got to see one of the symptoms that CAUSED the paladin splash to be better:

    (Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 18 (+55): save failure!

    The problem as I see it isn't that divine grace is overpowered (it's not, at my very best I'll be hitting a +17->+18 to my saves from it...but with enemy inflation being so out of whack (if you think they factor in things like divine grace into figuring enemy stats, you should try playing a DC caster or the like to see how little of reality is factored into enemy stats), it's becoming less and less useful)...it's that Turbine is adjusting EE enemies with a sledgehammer, and no real regard or logic for how they SHOULD be figured.

    What we're seeing is a symptom of incorrect balancing, not a result of an overpowered ability, the same we see with almost everything else in EEs.

    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmew3 View Post
    You are demonstrably wrong. Even if you don't have the DCs to actually insta-kill, wail is extremely high and efficient DPS. Likewise, a rotation of enervation and energy drain is the highest DPS possible from ANY class on orange named mobs.

    Also, please stop assuming you know anything about the posters you are talking to when you don't have as much experience. It makes you look foolish, and is really very childish.
    False, Wail is not that great of DPS (a targeted energy drain is better DPS to a point). Furthermore, energy drain/enervation rotation are only effective DPS until the boss is reduced to around 1/3->1/2 from neg-leveling. Outside of stupidly badly balanced enemies with a 60 CR and 40k+ HP, though, neg-leveling through spells is inefficient (though a neg-level weapon that doesn't otherwise compromise on DPS does add significant damage).
    Last edited by dravael; 05-04-2013 at 06:04 AM.
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