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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    The OP seems to be arguing that DG should be capped at 2*<paladin level> or something similar, and to me this seems like a very valid suggestion. Not only will it still be decently valuable to splash paladin (+4 all saves among other things), but it would actually promote paladins to stay pure.
    Why single out Paladin? There are a lot of 1 or 2 level splashes that give significant benefit. Evasion is the biggest one and an 18 Wiz/2 Rogue with Insightful Reflexes will take a lot less damage in EE content than a 18 Sorc/2 Pally.

    Other ones that come to mind for splashes with significant benefits are:
    1 Barb for the run speed
    2 Monk for evasion
    1 Monk for the +2 to wisdom and saves in ocean stance for a divine
    2 Rogue for UMD, Traps and Evasion
    2 Fighter for 2 feats and haste boost and +1 str enhancement
    2 ranger for free twf, bow strength, rapid shot
    1 wizard for the metamaqic feat
    1 arti for repeater use, traps and umd

    The list can keep going, but I think the issue that needs adjusting are the capstones so it is more of a trade-off to splash than a significant benefit with very little lost. Hopefully this gets changed in the final enhancement pass.

    Again, character design and building is a huge feature in DDO that makes it more interesting than a lot of other games imho.

  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    yes this is over-powered but it's black-letter rule out of the players handbook. Every time Turbine breaks stuff like this it makes the game worse. better to leave it as is than to try to balance it.

  3. #43
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Or maybe the question should be asked "Who" is able to "Work The System"?

    Off the top of my head: Sorcerers seem to be the ones that could utilize this the most as Charisma is their main casting stat.

    So a 50 Charisma Sorcerer gets +20 to Saves

    While a Charisma based FvS/Pal 18/2 might also be able to pump their Charisma up, it would limit them to only Light based Offensive spells as they would sacrifice Wisdom to do so.

    Outside of a 20 Paladin or one with a couple splashed levels who else would be able to get better than +10 (30+ Charisma) without taking a noticeable hit in their other abilities?

    Is this really a question of an abuse of Divine Grace? or is this really just an other approach of pointing out that a Shiradi Champion on a Sorcerer is such a power boost that the best way to improve the character is to think towards its defenses?

  4. #44
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Or maybe the question should be asked "Who" is able to "Work The System"?
    Dude . . . . getting a 30 or so in a non-primary stat is no problem in this game, i used to do it on monk-splash toons all the time for the wisdom AC. A +10 to saves is huge.

    Regarding the sorcs you mention . . . make their capstone not terrible and people won't splash.

  5. #45
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Dude . . . . getting a 30 or so in a non-primary stat is no problem in this game, i used to do it on monk-splash toons all the time for the wisdom AC. A +10 to saves is huge.

    Regarding the sorcs you mention . . . make their capstone not terrible and people won't splash.
    The OP seems to think that splashing gets people a +20 bonus to saves easily, the only class that this happens on is sorcs though, and as you mentioned back when the capstone was good before the spwr changes not too many sorcs splashed.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    I still don't see a problem with it. You still have a flat five percent chance of failure no matter how many bonuses you have to save. Unless Divine Grace negates the possibility to fail on a one, you could have +2112 to save and on a roll of 1d20 you will still fail five percent of the time.
    True with Heroic, but once you're into Epics, you can use your ED's to pick up no-fail on 1 options.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    Well, why have different classes then if they are all equal and uncustomizable?

    I think, instead of nerfing any class, they should remove ALL classes and bring out 1 new class
    That's called 4th edition.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The OP seems to think that splashing gets people a +20 bonus to saves easily, the only class that this happens on is sorcs though, and as you mentioned back when the capstone was good before the spwr changes not too many sorcs splashed.
    I hardly said that. What I did say is that as stats inflate it becomes increasingly easy to get high cha for more builds. Since you bring up the time before the spwr change you might also want to consider how much stats have gone up since and hence how much more DG will add now compared to back then ... and then think ahead and add even more to that with future xpacs or expansions.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    With gear/tomes/ED/etc adding more and more to stats this bonus can easily become +15, +20 or maybe even +25 in the near future.
    Yeah, sure, if you're paladin or sorc.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    The problem is that without Divine Grace its damn near impossible to have high enough saves
    It's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    but because of Divine Grace the developers needs to up the saves or those with it will have a far too easy time.
    Based on what exactly, more likely that the devs just ramped up every stat to eleven without thinking about it too hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Anyway, low 40s isnt much (assuming unbuffed obviously) nor is that the point. The point is that being able to add +15 or even more with a single ability on a d20 roll warrents some consideration. Maybe its not an issue because one can get good enough resists even without it but considering the high number of 18 sorc / 2 pal specifically for the resists I rather think that it might already be a problem or that it will be one in the future as stats inflate even further.
    You can reach around 60 without any pally levels if you really want to, with pally levels you're on no fail territory against everything.

    This thread is stupid.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I hardly said that. What I did say is that as stats inflate it becomes increasingly easy to get high cha for more builds. Since you bring up the time before the spwr change you might also want to consider how much stats have gone up since and hence how much more DG will add now compared to back then ... and then think ahead and add even more to that with future xpacs or expansions.
    Where are you getting +20 bonus from? Even sorcs have a hard time hitting that high, especially shiradi as they don't get CHA as an ED stat, and they're giving up kind of a lot for that defensive boost. Mosts other toons will be looking at a +10 bonus, and that's definitely not overpowered considering what other splashes can do.

    In short, stop looking for nerfs that aren't needed just because you're jealous of some other toon's abilities. There are so many things broken with DDO that need to take priority.

  11. #51
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    This is a good template for people NOT to follow if they're looking to promote a rules change. What builds are being overpowered? Compared to what? Out of context numbers (OMG +25 to all SAVES!!!) are just not very helpful.

    There are two CHA based classes in the game, sorcs and (caster) bards. Bards can't splash Paly due to alignment conflict, and sorcs loose out on extremely valuable 9th level spell slots if they splash. Non-CHA based classes are going to get a much smaller benefit from divine grace, more like +5 to +8 (even with divine grace it's not really worth it to use gear slots for a bunch of fancy +CHA gear, so we're talking 14 or 16 base, 6-8 from gear, 2 from shippies).

    That's a nice bonus, but OP compared to 2 feats and evasion from monk? 2 feats + weapon/armor/shield prof from fighter? Evasion, full UMD, and trapping skills from Rogue? Nah.

    Edit: To give some more context, I have a well geared 3rd life paladin that I've soloed several EEs on, and I walk around with a 28 (+9) CHA. 16 base +4 tome, +6 gear, +2 ship. Using more gear slots and AP on CHA has opportunity costs that I'm just not willing to pay. And I get more out of CHA than most people who would be splashing 2 pally do.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 05-02-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    Unfair advantage??? It's one of the few advantages pallys have! They're mediocre DPS, worse casters, and notable chiefly for being very hard to kill. That's it. They're the Cockroach Class.
    If the maximun bonus scale whit paladin level, that means a pure paladin would have the maximun bonus, and a 2 level splash, and i guess its your case (could be wrong tho), would get nerfed.

    No real paladin would be upset whit OP proposal, sorcs whit 2 pally levels would.

  13. #53
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    So again I think what this boils down to is the 18/2 Sorc/Pal Shiradi Champion is OP debate as no one else has pointed out another build that could reach the +15 (40 Charisma) to +25 (60 Charisma) Saves from Divine Grace.

    I think the best solution would be to focus more on making it more attractive to stay pure. Personally my initial review of the "Enhancement System" to me at least shows promise that the new capstones would make that decision of saves vs. power a much harder one. As I especially like the idea of being able to take on Elemental form and the +2 to Charisma that it also brings. Some might argue that DC casting is DEAD, but who knows maybe after the Enhancement Pass we may see revival.

    Modifying Divine Grace now in my opinion would destroy the ability to Multiclass with Paladin levels. DDO does not need less reasons to Multiclass.

  14. #54
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    I'd tend to agree it's not a current problem.
    I'd also tend to agree it's a potential one.
    If they wanted to keep folks on the same dice, I could see, say:

    2-18: cha bonus up to 1/2 paly level
    19 or 20: autogranted feat that removes the cap (since at that point, your only option for evasion to turn that pretty much guaranteed save for half into save for none is maxed shadowdancer).
    Last edited by Scrapheap; 05-02-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    ...
    No real paladin would be upset whit OP proposal, sorcs whit 2 pally levels would.
    I've played a Paladin since '06 and longer if you include my PnP days or any other game that had paladin in it...

    What upsets me about this proposed change is not that it would initially hurt my 20 Paladin, but that it caps me at +40 Saves (Ok, so what is the likely hood of me getting a 90 charisma anytime soon hehehe)

    Also this misses the other Class abilities that people splash for and receive FULL benefit from. Monk AC from Wisdom, Trap Skills, and Weapon proficiencies

    You cannot look at just one ability and go "Hey that needs a Nerf" without considering all of the others that also potentially grant full benefits.

    But this might just be my "Lawful Good" Nature

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post

    sorcs loose out on extremely valuable 9th level spell slots if they splash.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    /breathes

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post

    What upsets me about this proposed change is not that it would initially hurt my 20 Paladin, but that it caps me at +40 Saves (Ok, so what is the likely hood of me getting a 90 charisma anytime soon hehehe)

    Also this misses the other Class abilities that people splash for and receive FULL benefit from. Monk AC from Wisdom, Trap Skills, and Weapon proficiencies
    Well, the thread is called "Divine grace getting out of hand", not "low level splashes are getting out of hand", feel free to start that one and i'll support you.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmew3 View Post
    stop looking for nerfs
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiisi View Post
    This thread is stupid.
    qft

  19. #59
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Balance is severely overrated, some gamers learn this secret, some strive for balance never really understanding that balance is rock paper scissors.
    Balance is vanilla and uniformity.

    D&D spent the better part of its history 4 decades thumbing its nose at balance, and yet managing to be one of the greatest game systems ever devised.

    A fantasy wizard that has achieved mastery of his craft is supposed to be an army destroying demi god.

    What fun is playing a wizard that is "balanced". And like a hapless side character in a fantasy novel that can't effect much and has no real power?

    Do you really want to play the inept powerless side character? Don't you want your character to shrug off an attack and be Death dealer, or Raistlen, or Conan?

    How's this for heroic fantasy; Gandolf rode over the mountain, and some garden variety orc shamen cast hold on him, while the local giant rat population gnawed him to death. The end... awesome.

    I want Sturm to make his save and be the hero... I don't want him to spend the entire book eating res cakes lol. Naturally characters need to have heroic abilities that don't feel trivial and meager. Balance be dammed.

  20. #60
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Balance is severely overrated, some gamers learn this secret, some strive for balance never really understanding that balance is rock paper scissors.
    Balance is vanilla and uniformity.

    D&D spent the better part of its history 4 decades thumbing its nose at balance, and yet managing to be one of the greatest game systems ever devised.

    A fantasy wizard that has achieved mastery of his craft is supposed to be an army destroying demi god.

    What fun is playing a wizard that is "balanced". And like a hapless side character in a fantasy novel that can't effect much and has no real power?

    Do you really want to play the inept powerless side character? Don't you want your character to shrug off an attack and be Death dealer, or Raistlen, or Conan?

    How's this for heroic fantasy; Gandolf rode over the mountain, and some garden variety orc shamen cast hold on him, while the local giant rat population gnawed him to death. The end... awesome.

    I want Sturm to make his save and be the hero... I don't want him to spend the entire book eating res cakes lol. Naturally characters need to have heroic abilities that don't feel trivial and meager. Balance be dammed.
    well said

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