Paladins are supposed to make their saves. That's part of the point. They're supposed to help others make theirs, too. Who are you to determine whether an ability is getting out of hand in the first place? It's not as though they have evasion; is it that you think they should be poisoned more often?
Balance is what devs do. We play the game. When I get a job with turbine, I'll (possibly) start caring about game balance. Until then, why care about what I can't change?
Yes. It is a problem. Saves are becoming the new AC. Paladins are hardly to blame for that, nor is divine grace. It's just the way players are dealing with the problem right now. I totally agree as a main class Paladin is the weakest in the game and needs no further nerfs. But that doesn't change the fact about saves, though.
I believe that equivalence and parity are accepted definitions of the word. What do you think it means?
The contention seems to be about a splash getting the full effect of the class ability, particularly on classes that get better effect from it that the Paladins do.
The issue isn't "Divine Grace is out of hand" it's that monsters don't have Shiradi, which ignores saves, and we're not fighting a bunch of Malirith's that chew up LG paladins. Balance can and should be achieved by altering the environment, not killing an ability. Fact is, if the endgame swapped to demons and things or making spell pen matter a bunch eliminates much of the draw for the Pal2 split. Given the end-game is much narrower now as well, this provides very little environmental/contextual balance.
See, we *have* a trade off. Right now, those 2 spell pen and caster levels are not as useful ... so the swap is easy to make.
I think some folks are way to fixated on individual items like this and not big picture balance.
Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane
I honestly don't think it's a problem. The save that matters the most in the game is reflex and most classes/builds have some way to improve on that significantly. Most Will save and fortitude based effects can be easily mitigated with buffs/gear.
Some examples of how other builds can deal with reflex saves that aren't as obvious are:
Wizard: Take insightful reflexes for a huge bonus that only cost one feat
Monk/Rogue: Improved Evasion is given for free and with a reflex save in the 50s it's no real problem
I notice a massive difference playing a 20 wizard with insightful reflexes vs a pure 20 sorc.
My monkcher is currently 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter, I thought of going 2 pally for the save benefit, but the reality is I have no issue at all in the Blue Dragon Room in EE Tor (not using a save spot, just fighting in the middle of the room) or tanking the reaver or lich in FoT given all my saves are already in the 50s. To me I like the 2 additional feats and haste boost more from fighter than the save benefit from 2 pally.
This is part of what makes DDO interesting - you have a lot of build choices and you can optimize around different things. Lets not dumb the game down...
I think, instead of nerfing any class, they should remove ALL classes and bring out 1 new class that does everything, a uniclass if you will.
Then, make all spell books have the same spells with no choices for the player to have to choose from.
While we are at it, remove all weapons except for the Smoldering Cudgel.
This would make all characters equal, and then make the game focused on player skill.
Balance can and should be achieved by varied content.
We have a situation right now where native caster levels on a Sorc are not meaningful. We're also not fighting hordes of 6 arm snake women who destroy LG paladins. We are fighting mobs and contents that have a great degree of saves required - monsters don't have a Shiradi, ya'know. Given the fact that the "end game" is so small, we'll tweak for that. Not many quests at 25, after all. Remember when people used to say "be neutral if you have a choice?" Yeah, we don't give that advice any more because there is little harm in being one of the extreme environments.
Divine Grace is fine. If we have things with no save or mobs that punish LG w/ add on damage sufficiently, even saves of 100 are not really an issue.
What isn't fine is the too-easy ability for CL to be irrelevant ... and frankly some classes absolutely need a reason to stay in them. That's less about the value of Pal 2, Fighter 2 or Monk 2 or Rogue 2 are good, more that there's far few places where Sorc 20 may make a difference (Cleric 20 may, w/ DI for instance ... Wiz and Arti get feats from the class AND have decent capstones from enhancements, etc.)
Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane
I concur that if (and thats one major if) the envirronment (also at end game) had a mix of quests and raids that used different approaches that would work well too and be better. Thats just asking for a lot more than simply adjusting a few things. Anyway, wish list:
- some quests where mobs slow movement a good deal making kiting harder
- some quests where mobs buff nightshield making shiradi spam slightly harder
- some quests where mobs throw a debuff that makes reconstruct ineffective for a short while
- some quests where mobs use spells/abilites that cannot be evaded / saved against
- some quests where mob throw "heavy gravity" making jump casting harder
- some quest where ....
or even better
- most quests containing a mix of mobs each doing one of the above so no single way makes the quest too easy but you actually have to adopt.
Still, I find that allowing +20 or +25 to all saves from a level 2 innate is strange but I certainly admit that its not the largest problem with balance in DDO.
"Power creep"... I hear that so often like it's the most evil of things. It isn't. It's the natural progression of events when you're dealing with violently interacting sapient societies. You're going to get arms races that lead to more and better weapons and armor, and if you're lucky, soldiers to use them. iI suppose you expect the new adventures to be just as hard as the current ones when the level cap gets raised and no more... You know, to prevent power creep. And the level cap itself won't bring any new power either to prevent power creep, of course. It'll just be for show. This is what MMOs do. They advances, they change, they push boundaries. Or they stagnate and die. Take your pick.
I completely agree with the OP, DG has always been broken in a sense. The only thing that has kept it in check before was that saves didn't matter (anyone could reach 2(+x) success rolls).
What I see in this thread is what I always see in debates on this forum, a great deal of ignorance, and a great inability to read or at the very least: comprehend.
The OP seems to be arguing that DG should be capped at 2*<paladin level> or something similar, and to me this seems like a very valid suggestion. Not only will it still be decently valuable to splash paladin (+4 all saves among other things), but it would actually promote paladins to stay pure.
I've read over and over in this thread how paladins are gimped, and their only redeeming feature seems to be DG, and "nerfing" it would really mess up one of the worst classes (paladin). But let me point out the obvious (again), pure paladins (or level ~5 levels of paladin (that's +10 all saves)) won't be nerfed *at all* with this suggestion.
I can't tell if this thread is silent sarcasm or if someone is actually asking for a nerf to those useless things we call paladins lol. lol after we nerf the pally, can we change the elf racial to start with a -8 con?
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