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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcmed View Post
    Then don't play paladin nor splash 2 levels, or dump charisma and do use any equip.


    Problem solved you are welcome
    Thanks - well, thanks for proving my point that the DDO community care nothing about balance and will do anything to avoid debating it. Much appreciated

  2. #22
    Community Member judgemonroe's Avatar
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    Paladins are supposed to make their saves. That's part of the point. They're supposed to help others make theirs, too. Who are you to determine whether an ability is getting out of hand in the first place? It's not as though they have evasion; is it that you think they should be poisoned more often?

  3. #23
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Balance is what devs do. We play the game. When I get a job with turbine, I'll (possibly) start caring about game balance. Until then, why care about what I can't change?

  4. #24
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    Default That must be it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Thanks - well, thanks for proving my point that the DDO community care nothing about balance and will do anything to avoid debating it. Much appreciated
    You are welcome!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    but rather to try to bring a minimum of balance
    People, like you, really need to stop using this word until they learn what it means.

  6. #26
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    Yes. It is a problem. Saves are becoming the new AC. Paladins are hardly to blame for that, nor is divine grace. It's just the way players are dealing with the problem right now. I totally agree as a main class Paladin is the weakest in the game and needs no further nerfs. But that doesn't change the fact about saves, though.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    People, like you, really need to stop using this word until they learn what it means.
    More equity between characters, so content can be designed based on player skill and a wide range of characters rather than requiring a narrow subset of builds in order to be able to do it?
    I believe that equivalence and parity are accepted definitions of the word. What do you think it means?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilII View Post
    Yes. It is a problem. Saves are becoming the new AC. Paladins are hardly to blame for that, nor is divine grace. It's just the way players are dealing with the problem right now. I totally agree as a main class Paladin is the weakest in the game and needs no further nerfs. But that doesn't change the fact about saves, though.
    I think that pretty much everyone here is agreeing that Paladins getting full effect from their Divine Grace is good.

    The contention seems to be about a splash getting the full effect of the class ability, particularly on classes that get better effect from it that the Paladins do.

  9. #29
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    More equity between characters, so content can be designed based on player skill and a wide range of characters rather than requiring a narrow subset of builds in order to be able to do it?
    I believe that equivalence and parity are accepted definitions of the word. What do you think it means?
    Balance is content where some rewards high saves, some does not. etc.

    The issue isn't "Divine Grace is out of hand" it's that monsters don't have Shiradi, which ignores saves, and we're not fighting a bunch of Malirith's that chew up LG paladins. Balance can and should be achieved by altering the environment, not killing an ability. Fact is, if the endgame swapped to demons and things or making spell pen matter a bunch eliminates much of the draw for the Pal2 split. Given the end-game is much narrower now as well, this provides very little environmental/contextual balance.

    See, we *have* a trade off. Right now, those 2 spell pen and caster levels are not as useful ... so the swap is easy to make.



    I think some folks are way to fixated on individual items like this and not big picture balance.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  10. #30
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    I honestly don't think it's a problem. The save that matters the most in the game is reflex and most classes/builds have some way to improve on that significantly. Most Will save and fortitude based effects can be easily mitigated with buffs/gear.

    Some examples of how other builds can deal with reflex saves that aren't as obvious are:
    Wizard: Take insightful reflexes for a huge bonus that only cost one feat
    Monk/Rogue: Improved Evasion is given for free and with a reflex save in the 50s it's no real problem

    I notice a massive difference playing a 20 wizard with insightful reflexes vs a pure 20 sorc.

    My monkcher is currently 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter, I thought of going 2 pally for the save benefit, but the reality is I have no issue at all in the Blue Dragon Room in EE Tor (not using a save spot, just fighting in the middle of the room) or tanking the reaver or lich in FoT given all my saves are already in the 50s. To me I like the 2 additional feats and haste boost more from fighter than the save benefit from 2 pally.

    This is part of what makes DDO interesting - you have a lot of build choices and you can optimize around different things. Lets not dumb the game down...

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    More equity between characters,
    Well, why have different classes then if they are all equal and uncustomizable?

    I think, instead of nerfing any class, they should remove ALL classes and bring out 1 new class that does everything, a uniclass if you will.

    Then, make all spell books have the same spells with no choices for the player to have to choose from.

    While we are at it, remove all weapons except for the Smoldering Cudgel.


    http://ddowiki.com/page/Smoldering_Cudgel


    This would make all characters equal, and then make the game focused on player skill.

  12. #32
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Balance can and should be achieved by varied content.

    We have a situation right now where native caster levels on a Sorc are not meaningful. We're also not fighting hordes of 6 arm snake women who destroy LG paladins. We are fighting mobs and contents that have a great degree of saves required - monsters don't have a Shiradi, ya'know. Given the fact that the "end game" is so small, we'll tweak for that. Not many quests at 25, after all. Remember when people used to say "be neutral if you have a choice?" Yeah, we don't give that advice any more because there is little harm in being one of the extreme environments.

    Balance.

    Divine Grace is fine. If we have things with no save or mobs that punish LG w/ add on damage sufficiently, even saves of 100 are not really an issue.


    What isn't fine is the too-easy ability for CL to be irrelevant ... and frankly some classes absolutely need a reason to stay in them. That's less about the value of Pal 2, Fighter 2 or Monk 2 or Rogue 2 are good, more that there's far few places where Sorc 20 may make a difference (Cleric 20 may, w/ DI for instance ... Wiz and Arti get feats from the class AND have decent capstones from enhancements, etc.)
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Balance is content where some rewards high saves, some does not. etc.

    The issue isn't "Divine Grace is out of hand" it's that monsters don't have Shiradi, which ignores saves, and we're not fighting a bunch of Malirith's that chew up LG paladins. Balance can and should be achieved by altering the environment, not killing an ability. Fact is, if the endgame swapped to demons and things or making spell pen matter a bunch eliminates much of the draw for the Pal2 split. Given the end-game is much narrower now as well, this provides very little environmental/contextual balance.

    See, we *have* a trade off. Right now, those 2 spell pen and caster levels are not as useful ... so the swap is easy to make.

    I think some folks are way to fixated on individual items like this and not big picture balance.
    Good post, thanks.

    I concur that if (and thats one major if) the envirronment (also at end game) had a mix of quests and raids that used different approaches that would work well too and be better. Thats just asking for a lot more than simply adjusting a few things. Anyway, wish list:
    - some quests where mobs slow movement a good deal making kiting harder
    - some quests where mobs buff nightshield making shiradi spam slightly harder
    - some quests where mobs throw a debuff that makes reconstruct ineffective for a short while
    - some quests where mobs use spells/abilites that cannot be evaded / saved against
    - some quests where mob throw "heavy gravity" making jump casting harder
    - some quest where ....
    or even better
    - most quests containing a mix of mobs each doing one of the above so no single way makes the quest too easy but you actually have to adopt.

    Still, I find that allowing +20 or +25 to all saves from a level 2 innate is strange but I certainly admit that its not the largest problem with balance in DDO.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    I think that pretty much everyone here is agreeing that Paladins getting full effect from their Divine Grace is good. The contention seems to be about a splash getting the full effect of the class ability, particularly on classes that get better effect from it that the Paladins do.
    This is the real problem, yes. Even those Paladin apologists who are defending Divine Grace as one of the few selling points of the class should agree that getting full effect from a /2 splash really just further debases Paladin as only good for a /2 splash for the saves.I'd support capping the save bonus at 2*Pal level or something...anything that contains power creep helps maintain balance down the road.

  15. #35
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Balance is content where some rewards high saves, some does not. etc.

    The issue isn't "Divine Grace is out of hand" it's that monsters don't have Shiradi, which ignores saves, and we're not fighting a bunch of Malirith's that chew up LG paladins. Balance can and should be achieved by altering the environment, not killing an ability. Fact is, if the endgame swapped to demons and things or making spell pen matter a bunch eliminates much of the draw for the Pal2 split. Given the end-game is much narrower now as well, this provides very little environmental/contextual balance.

    See, we *have* a trade off. Right now, those 2 spell pen and caster levels are not as useful ... so the swap is easy to make.



    I think some folks are way to fixated on individual items like this and not big picture balance.
    I agree with this. When Spell Penetration matters, when Maximum Caster Levels matter, when the Capstone matters, most casters won't see splashing as more valuable than going pure.

  16. #36
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    "Power creep"... I hear that so often like it's the most evil of things. It isn't. It's the natural progression of events when you're dealing with violently interacting sapient societies. You're going to get arms races that lead to more and better weapons and armor, and if you're lucky, soldiers to use them. iI suppose you expect the new adventures to be just as hard as the current ones when the level cap gets raised and no more... You know, to prevent power creep. And the level cap itself won't bring any new power either to prevent power creep, of course. It'll just be for show. This is what MMOs do. They advances, they change, they push boundaries. Or they stagnate and die. Take your pick.

  17. #37
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Still, I find that allowing +20 or +25 to all saves from a level 2 innate is strange but I certainly admit that its not the largest problem with balance in DDO.
    Yep, and only because the high saves are necessary, and LG is not penalized like it used to be.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Good post, thanks.

    ...
    Still, I find that allowing +20 or +25 to all saves from a level 2 innate is strange but I certainly admit that its not the largest problem with balance in DDO.
    But is this any different than allowing 1 or 2 levels of Rogue splash on a character have the same if not better trapping abilities of a Pure Rogue.

    I don't think we should change an ability just because a Sorcerer/Paladin 18/2 would have better saves.

  19. #39
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    I completely agree with the OP, DG has always been broken in a sense. The only thing that has kept it in check before was that saves didn't matter (anyone could reach 2(+x) success rolls).
    What I see in this thread is what I always see in debates on this forum, a great deal of ignorance, and a great inability to read or at the very least: comprehend.
    The OP seems to be arguing that DG should be capped at 2*<paladin level> or something similar, and to me this seems like a very valid suggestion. Not only will it still be decently valuable to splash paladin (+4 all saves among other things), but it would actually promote paladins to stay pure.
    I've read over and over in this thread how paladins are gimped, and their only redeeming feature seems to be DG, and "nerfing" it would really mess up one of the worst classes (paladin). But let me point out the obvious (again), pure paladins (or level ~5 levels of paladin (that's +10 all saves)) won't be nerfed *at all* with this suggestion.

  20. #40
    Community Member ~hallenbeck's Avatar
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    I can't tell if this thread is silent sarcasm or if someone is actually asking for a nerf to those useless things we call paladins lol. lol after we nerf the pally, can we change the elf racial to start with a -8 con?

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