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  1. #1
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    Default Divine Grace getting out of hand?

    It seems to me that the level 2 Paladin ability Divine Grace is getting out hand. It gives a bonus to all saves equal to the cha modifier. With gear/tomes/ED/etc adding more and more to stats this bonus can easily become +15, +20 or maybe even +25 in the near future.

    Thus the difference between having this ability and not having it is larger than the d20 roll used for saves!

    One way to fix this would be to go the route that has been gone with AC. Another, easier road, would be to cap the bonus to something more reasonable, say no more than +12. It might even be considered to further cap it to no more than +3 per paladin level taken.

    I realise that many other things might also be getting out of hand in DDO but thats for another thread.

  2. #2
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    *looks at epic elite save requirements* Don't see the problem myself, personally.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    *looks at epic elite save requirements* Don't see the problem myself, personally.
    The problem is that without Divine Grace its damn near impossible to have high enough saves but because of Divine Grace the developers needs to up the saves or those with it will have a far too easy time. The difference between someone with DG and with DG is simply too large and only be capping DG will that issue not get even further out of hand.

  4. #4
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    I still don't see a problem with it. You still have a flat five percent chance of failure no matter how many bonuses you have to save. Unless Divine Grace negates the possibility to fail on a one, you could have +2112 to save and on a roll of 1d20 you will still fail five percent of the time.

  5. #5
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    ...............
    Last edited by Daemoneyes; 05-02-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    The problem is that without Divine Grace its damn near impossible to have high enough saves but because of Divine Grace the developers needs to up the saves or those with it will have a far too easy time. The difference between someone with DG and with DG is simply too large and only be capping DG will that issue not get even further out of hand.
    I think you are just not trying hard enough and therefore go the easy way of screaming nerf.
    Look at the Juggernaut build, best variant out there is not with 2pal and it still reaches high enough saves to solo EE.
    Also a lot of other builds dont seem to have trouble reaching the saves with some work.

    Pal is the easy way but then there is a definitive power gap between a Pal and any other splash and its not often that Pal is the one with more power. Feats are often way better then the extra saves, so i think its balanced.

    Also the numbers you state are to high for most to reach that are not sorc.
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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    It seems to me that the level 2 Paladin ability Divine Grace is getting out hand. It gives a bonus to all saves equal to the cha modifier. With gear/tomes/ED/etc adding more and more to stats this bonus can easily become +15, +20 or maybe even +25 in the near future.

    Thus the difference between having this ability and not having it is larger than the d20 roll used for saves!

    One way to fix this would be to go the route that has been gone with AC. Another, easier road, would be to cap the bonus to something more reasonable, say no more than +12. It might even be considered to further cap it to no more than +3 per paladin level taken.

    I realise that many other things might also be getting out of hand in DDO but thats for another thread.
    had a first life 18 druid 2 monk 5 epic for a while. He had mid 50's saves for fort/reflex/will this was a first life toon. If getting decent saves meant say mid 70's you might have a point but since mid 50's to 60 is very good I think this is a total non issue.

  8. #8
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Do monks and favored souls require nerfing as well? Unbuffed, my 25th level monk has high 30s and low 40s for saves. In Grandmaster of Oceans and Resilience stance you can add +9 to that.

  9. #9
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    Default The last thing pallies need is nerfs - in fact they could use a little buffing

    Oh great, so multi TR optimal builds with at least 2 paladin levels must have upset someone so now they want pallies nerfed? I would have thought their survival is your survival?

    My pure paladin(s) are modest DPSers but not great, modest divine spells but limited, and have a variety of other limitations. Their main attraction is their suvivability.

    Please don't ask to nerf one of the the cornerstones of the core strengths pure pallies have.

    Thank you.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    Do monks and favored souls require nerfing as well? Unbuffed, my 25th level monk has high 30s and low 40s for saves. In Grandmaster of Oceans and Resilience stance you can add +9 to that.
    Believe it or not I am actually not out to specifically nerf anyone - but rather to try to bring a minimum of balance to the game. I can understand why that might be hard to understand seeing that the DDO community seems to be by far the least interested in balance across all the games I have ever played and thats no mean feat.

    Heck, if anything I am nerfing myself as my one and only active build is a 4th life CHA based FvS that might even decide to splash two pally levels.

    Anyway, low 40s isnt much (assuming unbuffed obviously) nor is that the point. The point is that being able to add +15 or even more with a single ability on a d20 roll warrents some consideration. Maybe its not an issue because one can get good enough resists even without it but considering the high number of 18 sorc / 2 pal specifically for the resists I rather think that it might already be a problem or that it will be one in the future as stats inflate even further.

  11. #11
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Sorry, you're talking to a Rifts player. Note, that's Rifts with an S, as in the Palladium Books pen and paper RPG. I've played games where squishy rogue scholars and wilderness scouts stood alongside godlings, power armor pilots, full conversion cyborgs, and dragons. Game balance is severely overrated.

  12. #12
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    Default From what I can tell.....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    Believe it or not I am actually not out to specifically nerf anyone - but rather to try to bring a minimum of balance to the game. I can understand why that might be hard to understand seeing that the DDO community seems to be by far the least interested in balance across all the games I have ever played and thats no mean feat.

    Heck, if anything I am nerfing myself as my one and only active build is a 4th life CHA based FvS that might even decide to splash two pally levels.

    Anyway, low 40s isnt much (assuming unbuffed obviously) nor is that the point. The point is that being able to add +15 or even more with a single ability on a d20 roll warrents some consideration. Maybe its not an issue because one can get good enough resists even without it but considering the high number of 18 sorc / 2 pal specifically for the resists I rather think that it might already be a problem or that it will be one in the future as stats inflate even further.

    Someone on a Pally beat you in the Wayward lobster.

    If not, it smacks to me like you want to balance PvE for use in PvP.

    Based on that, my reply to this thread is:

    No. DDO is not a game balanced for PvP.


    I very easily could be wrong, but really my gut tells me I am not.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    Oh great, so multi TR optimal builds with at least 2 paladin levels must have upset someone so now they want pallies nerfed? I would have thought their survival is your survival?

    My pure paladin(s) are modest DPSers but not great, modest divine spells but limited, and have a variety of other limitations. Their main attraction is their suvivability.

    Please don't ask to nerf one of the the cornerstones of the core strengths pure pallies have.

    Thank you.
    Out of curiosity. Does your paladin currently get more than +12 from CHA? The ideas wasnt really to lower the surviveability of pure paladins (with the most extreme gear) right now - but rather to prevent future inflation of stats to become an issue and for that a cap seems reasonable.

    If the same cap or a lower one should be applied to builds with just 2 levels of paladin is another matter entirely. That may be a bad idea depending on how much you think splashing two levels should be able to give.

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    I agree with OP. It's an unfair advantage. The maximum should scale with paladin level as OP suggested.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    Someone on a Pally beat you in the Wayward lobster.

    If not, it smacks to me like you want to balance PvE for use in PvP.

    Based on that, my reply to this thread is:

    No. DDO is not a game balanced for PvP.


    I very easily could be wrong, but really my gut tells me I am not.
    I never, ever play PvP and have zero interest in doing so but thanks for asking.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru212 View Post
    I agree with OP. It's an unfair advantage. The maximum should scale with paladin level as OP suggested.
    Unfair advantage??? It's one of the few advantages pallys have! They're mediocre DPS, worse casters, and notable chiefly for being very hard to kill. That's it. They're the Cockroach Class.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    Unfair advantage??? It's one of the few advantages pallys have! They're mediocre DPS, worse casters, and notable chiefly for being very hard to kill. That's it. They're the Cockroach Class.
    Someone needs to make a pally build called the human cockroach.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    Unfair advantage??? It's one of the few advantages pallys have! They're mediocre DPS, worse casters, and notable chiefly for being very hard to kill. That's it. They're the Cockroach Class.
    I dont think that +12 (or maybe even slightly more) for a pure Pally build is out of line.
    I do think that +25 would be out of line with stat inflation down the road even for a pure build.
    I certainly think that +15 or even more is out of line for splashing 2 levels of paladin.

  19. #19
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    And I think future updates will bone us regardless of what pointless nerfs you dream up to placate the devs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I dont think that +12 (or maybe even slightly more) for a pure Pally build is out of line.
    I do think that +25 would be out of line with stat inflation down the road even for a pure build.
    I certainly think that +15 or even more is out of line for splashing 2 levels of paladin.
    Then don't play paladin nor splash 2 levels, or dump charisma and do use any equip.


    Problem solved you are welcome

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