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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    I think some of you people are giggling with insane glee whenever anyone says anything negative about Neverwinter--particularly those of you who say the most negative things on hearsay rather than trying out the game personally. Much of the criticism here is valid, especially when it comes to the lack of character depth when compared to this game, which is true enough. Still, the game has time to evolve and I very much doubt it's going away. Furthermore, it it's anything like a success you can bet it's going to have some sort of impact on this game. Competition will be good for DDO or, worst case scenario, the brain trust at Warner decides it's had its day.
    My guess is that NWO won't impact Turbine development at all. They seem to be internally focused rather than externally focused.

    I agree with you on the character development. If character development is a critical feature, NWO is lacking. However, to some people the simplicity of building a character and lack of failure points that result in a bad build is a positive. Overall the social atmosphere in the game is more positive, supported largely by a good design from the NWO team.

    As another poster said, I think it's really targeting a different audience, which I believe happens to be a much larger audience. The overlap is is very small for DDO regulars and maybe like 50% or more for casual DDO players.

    I think their free-to-play model is superior which will help retain a larger # of free to play players through end game. For DDO, free to play is mostly a trial period unless you have a lot of time to grind.

    As far as quests, character development, etc. I think DDO wins hands-down. However when I factor in the things that really frustrate me like guild decay, the advantage isn't really there. NWO did a good job of avoiding the type of mechanics that drive people away. At the moment I have just as much fun playing NWO as I do playing DDO. But I hope both games have continued success. There is room for both games and I like them both. I am glad the D&D setting appeals to so many people - it's one of the best games ever designed.

  2. #122
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    I gave NWO a spin last weekend, it just didn't quite work for me.

    I like that the MMO world is focusing more on action based combat, it's one of the main reasons I've had DDO on my hard drive since I first started playing not long after 1st launch. Kinda funny it's taken this long for the MMO world to realise action based combat can be fun

    That however is why NWO didn't really work with me, it tries to be action based, and there is a lot of good stuff in there, but it then strangles the action by rooting us to the ground every chance it gets. That I just don't understand. Some big, special attacks, sure I can see them being balanced with rooting, but not a melee's everyday attack.

    For me action based melee is stepping into range as my sword is swinging. Not stepping into melee range, stopping, swinging my sword back then going for the hit. That just feels disjointed and breaks the flow. One game that got this spot on was Spellborn, in that you could time the swing of your sword with your moving into melee range to get your hit while avoiding as many of the mobs hits as possible. They still had some abilities that rooted you, but you could plan for them and position your self for them and even jump cast to mitigate them. The combat was just oozing action and positional strategy whilst maintaining a fluid flow and forcing you to alter your usage of abilities on the fly.

    Spellborn had better combat in some ways than DDO, the action part at least. Where DDO stands undefeated is in the sheer flexibility in ways you can affect the mobs. Add to that a fully fluid combat dynamic and the action flows constantly. Both games have an action based combat system NWO should have taken more note of.

    So, based on scrapping alone it's clear to me DDO is a better action based combat game, and Spellborn would be on the list too if it wasn't killed by greedy corporations.

    As for the DnD feel, well it's nice to see a lot of quests, though it does feel a lot more tile based than DDO, and I can see some of that in DDO. It's a shame they havent gone for a fully 3D level system, sure making it tile based will open the door to more players making content, but FPS games have had level tools out there for years to great success. So the quests don't feel quite as immersive as DDO.

    Then there are the traps, like all DnD games I've played previously there are traps, and for some reason they fail to inspire me. There is just something about the traps in DDO that bring out the wide eyed kid on fireworks night in me, when I get brutally killed by a new trap in DDO my reaction is to go "ooooh" and "ahhhh". I love it! The fire pit in STK and the head height blade trap in WW made a lasting impression on me, then later in the game seeing some of the inventive stuff like the floor giving way to a slope that then gets greased with something nasty at the bottom. It's that type of trap, where some quest designer has tried to find a new way to kill us that really makes the traps in DDO become more like fireworks and less like irritants.

    As for the char building, I havent got a clue how 4th ed works, and while i understand NWO is not as flexible as the rule set i have no idea how much of the spirit it's captured. just feels like another generic fantasy game with fixed classes and progression trees.

    I think a lot of people will have fun with NWO, but for me and my FPS background it's games like DDO that keep me hooked.
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  3. #123
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    I am having some fun. No it is not DDO and yes it is very different. ATM just taking a break from DDO and playing NWO.

    One of my favorite features. Imagine MyDDO but you can actually interact with the game from a web browser.

    https://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#/characterselect

    The below can be done from a web browser without being in-game.

    1. View Character - a given
    2. Read and answer mail.
    3. Guild stuff - not in a guild yet, but wonder if you can chat with guildies from a web browser
    4. Buy and post on the Auction House
    5. Professions/Crafting - can be done from a web browser. Don't have to click something a 1000x while in-game. If you have the recourses, you can start train and go about your business in-game or browser. Each tier completes in minutes/hours as you get higher in the tiers. You start it then go questing, sometime later get a message pop-up you finished that tier.

    DDO is still my favorite, but this comes in 2nd place and will play both.

  4. #124
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    I tried to edit the post above, but DDO Forums just stalls out on the 'Edit Post' button.

    I wanted to add, NWO is 2nd place for now. But still waiting for ESO

  5. #125
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    I agree with a poster above who said Cryptic does free-to-play better than Turbine, though when you compare DDO to LotRO, the latter gives players through deeding a means to earn points in-game. Though this game was the first really successful attempt for a subscription MMO to go f2p, it seems to me the company has a real problem when it comes to keeping its players happy. On the other hand, reading the forums makes me think this game has a lot of players who are loyal (in the sense that they're not leaving) to the game and only happy when the developers are making them miserable.

  6. #126
    Community Member khamastus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waryJerry View Post
    , it seems to me the company has a real problem when it comes to keeping its players happy. On the other hand, reading the forums makes me think this game has a lot of players who are loyal (in the sense that they're not leaving) to the game and only happy when the developers are making them miserable.
    I think it's one thing to be happy with the game. But theres a bit more to it than that, no?

    This game is so damned full of bugs.

    In my personal opinion, this game is absolutely amazing but you HAVE to take it warts and all. Who likes warts?

    If there was 'real' competition that offered the depth that I enjoy in DDO, it wouldnt take much to make me leave. Loyalty is built on trust and I dont see enough involvement from turbine to trust them that much.
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  7. #127
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    Every MMO I've ever played has been pretty high-handed when it comes to its players. They're all defensive when you criticize them and the customer service, let's be honest, tends to be crappy or even much worse. I do think, however, that Turbine in particular needs to show its players some love. Ultimately, I think the recent changes the developers have been implementing are a good thing and that we should give them some time to develop them rather than whine, whine, whine about the changes and how they're going to ruin our lives. Still, that said, I think Turbine could learn some things from Cryptic while retaining the complexity of character options we all keep on playing DDO for.

  8. #128
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    Default Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by khamastus View Post
    I think it's one thing to be happy with the game. But theres a bit more to it than that, no?

    This game is so damned full of bugs.

    In my personal opinion, this game is absolutely amazing but you HAVE to take it warts and all. Who likes warts?

    If there was 'real' competition that offered the depth that I enjoy in DDO, it wouldnt take much to make me leave. Loyalty is built on trust and I dont see enough involvement from turbine to trust them that much.
    The most compelling and descriptive of how I feel can be summed up by the above statement.

    Most importantly:
    Quote Originally Posted by khamastus View Post
    If there was 'real' competition that offered the depth that I enjoy in DDO, it wouldnt take much to make me leave. Loyalty is built on trust and I dont see enough involvement from turbine to trust them that much.
    And you nailed it with that.

    I also do not need much more than just a nudge from the right game that embodied even 1/2 of what DDO has. I have said this in the past, and I will say it again now. DDO can be so much more. DDO can and should be at the very top of the heap in the MMO industry, the simple reason they aren't is because they refuse to fix problems that are detrimental to the players experience. As far as I am concerned, it comes down to management. Whether it be time management or $$ investment management, it all boils down to the end result of: the leadership of the franchise is leading the developers into a dead end by not investing in repairing and fixing the game.

    Seriously, from an employer standpoint, granted my industry is not tech/game based, but the concept is the same. In my industry word gets around. There are an ess ton of guys doing what I do. There are also several guys that cannot get work just by their association with their bosses, when all they ever did was to do what they were told, they were good soldiers, but their boss stigmatized them with bad choices. So the concept of what I say is close, but not identical: The leaders of this game are giving their employees a bad reputation.

    It is not like this is a new or even relatively new thing. I have been on this game since the very day it went F2P, heck, I remember having to use a leveling token. I also remember them still dropping in chests for months after removal.

    No, DDO is a great game. It is a very immersive game. The combat can be the best, but it requires fixing the bugs, otherwise it IS the best.

    Here I go, rambling on. Basically, really, at the end of the day
    Quote Originally Posted by khamastus View Post
    In my personal opinion, this game is absolutely amazing but you HAVE to take it warts and all. Who likes warts?

    I know I am not a fan of warts.
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  9. #129
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    NWO may evolve into that competition, but its just too young of a game right now, with no real endgame. When they toss a few cmore classes, and a few world bosses in there, then we'll see.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    NWO may evolve into that competition, but its just too young of a game right now, with no real endgame. When they toss a few cmore classes, and a few world bosses in there, then we'll see.
    I disagree. NWO is still fundamentally a WoW clone. No game based on the non-instanced scavenger-hunt completely-linear non-repeatable spoon-fed style of play made popular by WoW will ever truly compete with DDO. Yes, they compete for market share, and yes they are winning by a mile. No, they'll never compete in terms of consumers who want a different, more immersive, more action driven type of game. DDO is still THE only game that delivers.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I disagree. NWO is still fundamentally a WoW clone. No game based on the non-instanced scavenger-hunt completely-linear non-repeatable spoon-fed style of play made popular by WoW will ever truly compete with DDO. Yes, they compete for market share, and yes they are winning by a mile. No, they'll never compete in terms of consumers who want a different, more immersive, more action driven type of game. DDO is still THE only game that delivers.
    Agree. I wish it wouldn't sap my motivation away right now.
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  12. #132
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    It's the people that kill it for Neverwiinter: the game is full of smug know-it-alls who constantly advertise their imaginary superiority on the game's forums. No, wait, that's here....

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    No, they'll never compete in terms of consumers who want a different, more immersive, more action driven type of game. DDO is still THE only game that delivers.
    Not true at all. DDO was the master of character development... but Neverwinter is turning into the master of content... and its engine is much much newer. No game developer can churn out enough content for this type of gaming. The high quality nature of the first gen Foundry missions are quite frankly stunning.

    Now if you ask me which character creation or combat I like better, I'm going to tell you DDO by a mile on the former, and DDO by a reasonable distance on the latter. However, I find both passable enough in Neverwinter in context, as a lighthearted fun game. And that's the draw of Neverwinter for me - it does enough to get me to experience the content, which is already much varied than DDO.

    Better graphics at highest settings, gorgeous artwork, more D&D lore, far more variety of quests that are always evolving. So character immersion I agree 100% with you, but its not so easy to end on DDO for many because when you look at the end product, for many NWO is different enough and good enough to be ... fun.

    I wish I could merge the two I really do. I wish Turbine would give us new shiny engine like NWOs, whith the same character development we do now (not the new ddo enhancements forthcoming) and a combination of storyline content and a super dungeon/quest creator like the Foundry.

    Since that day will probably never come I find both games immersive, just in different ways.


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  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I disagree. NWO is still fundamentally a WoW clone. No ...... spoon-fed style of play made popular by WoW will ever truly compete with DDO.
    I wanted to flip the coin on this one. I see where you are coming from but we have immersion busters and spoon fed stuff here as well. How many Shrouds have you've done? I've done well over a thousand. Now that was my favorite quest and the "go-to" for loot for so long. However to be honest, we still after seven years do a couple of handfulls of quests over and over and over again. The content is stale for many of us that have been around. That said, I still believe DDO is the one to beat as the most complete D&D MMO on the market, but it is getting beat because the content is limited and stale, and no matter how much they repaint the duck... it still quacks.

    If Turbine ditched the new enhancement stuff, ditched this ridiculous website and went back to the one most liked, and just focused on churning out more content and actually tackling the bugs, they'd hold the interests of more of the long timers who are paying their salary. I know they are trying to reinvent themselves again, but trying to do so and losing your base is not a good idea.

    And make no doubts, this time is very different from former new releases. We are losing a lot of people that have been around a long time at a faster pace, with a miniscule number of new blood coming to the game compared to ever before. Its not a doom comment though as I love DDO still, and plan to play it until they turn off the servers, but they need to stop the bleeding and stop making more bad decisions than good decisions for the sake of our community.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-20-2013 at 05:16 PM.


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  15. #135
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I disagree. NWO is still fundamentally a WoW clone. No game based on the non-instanced scavenger-hunt completely-linear non-repeatable spoon-fed style of play made popular by WoW will ever truly compete with DDO. Yes, they compete for market share, and yes they are winning by a mile. No, they'll never compete in terms of consumers who want a different, more immersive, more action driven type of game. DDO is still THE only game that delivers.
    The game is similar to WOW - until you start playing and authoring foundry quests. Ten the entire WOW comparison gets tossed out the window complete with Letterman style glass breaking sound effects.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #136
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    I have to mention one thing where DDO will never defeat NWO. It's dev involvement, publicity, and customer service. I had a forum login issue recently, it got solved through support tickets/e-mails within a few days. Devs actively communicate with the user-base and give out free stuff for major blunders/unexpected downtimes.

    Also, it's stable, not laggy, and waaaay less buggy. Perks of being a fresh game, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I disagree. NWO is still fundamentally a WoW clone. No game based on the non-instanced scavenger-hunt completely-linear non-repeatable spoon-fed style of play made popular by WoW will ever truly compete with DDO. Yes, they compete for market share, and yes they are winning by a mile. No, they'll never compete in terms of consumers who want a different, more immersive, more action driven type of game. DDO is still THE only game that delivers.
    I have to disagree here, because NWO is hardly based on "non-instanced scavenger-hunt completely-linear non-repeatable spoon-fed style of play". I mean, there's that option for those who like it, but there's much more variety. The story quests do indeed play like a linear single player + co-op RPG. But then you have PvP. And the Foundry. And the dungeons. And the Skirmishes. And you can mix and match these types of content and level as you like. You can skip the linear story if you hate it so much and just play UGC or grind dungeons like in DDO. Variety is good.

    Not to mention, NWO has very little of the "kill X of Y" quests, those are usually secondary quests that complete themselves as you follow the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    If Turbine ditched the new enhancement stuff, ditched this ridiculous website and went back to the one most liked, and just focused on churning out more content and actually tackling the bugs, they'd hold the interests of more of the long timers who are paying their salary. I know they are trying to reinvent themselves again, but trying to do so and losing your base is not a good idea.
    I dunno, I think mechanics can go stale just like content can. I'm actually intrigued by the new enhancements (though frankly they're taking way too long to work on them), and I'll probably log into DDO again to check that stuff out, maybe even start playing actively again. So it's a matter of perspective.


    -----------
    Overall I think much will depend on NWO's future development and speed of content generation, especially with regard to classes. I mean, the game hasn't even officially launched yet. If they prioritize release of character development-related content, I think NWO can go toe-to-toe with DDO in areas beyond those where it already does (like graphics&music, lore, combat, dungeons and bosses etc.) You have to remember that DDO also had a handful of races and classes at beta/launch, and much less playable content.


    P.S. I've really gotta laugh at all the people here drawing the conclusion on the game after reaching level 15 or thereabouts. It's like judging DDO by Korthos. I suppose that's somewhat fair, since I dropped DDO after Korthos first time I tried it right after it went F2P. But NWO is really all tutorial until level 10, you only get a full feel of the game after level 15-20 or so.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 05-22-2013 at 09:48 AM.

  17. #137
    Community Member griffin_230's Avatar
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    This guy makes some valid points:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbu1RZSHZk

  18. #138
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    Tried NWO last night. I have no experience with MMO outside of DDO. My impression? It's really, really dull. It's nice looking, but really boring. I dont' care about breakables and the like, but the combat is terrible. The lack of character customization is terrible.

    But I can see it being popular with quite a few people judging from the games I know people do play. But even with the (oh so many) things in DDO that bother me or I disagree with, DDO is still the better game. At least at this stage of development. Who knows what they'll end up doing to NWO?

    EDIT: Okay, that Gateway web access is pretty darned spiffy. See that Turbine? Make that happen.
    Last edited by FalseFlag; 05-30-2013 at 08:53 AM.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin_230 View Post
    This guy makes some valid points:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbu1RZSHZk

    Wait... dungeon quests are the worst way to gain xps? Is that for real?

  20. #140
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    I just started playing neverwinter the past few days. The combat is not as good as DDO nor is the character building, but both those things really are legacies of the game's original design. Build issues keep on getting worse, not better, in DDO as the developers seem to want to randomly nerf some things and boost others. That really kills my game enjoyment and with content down to an incredibly small trickle that has an 'xpack' with two lousy quest packs and no raid the arcade style design of neverwinter seems a lot less of a minus then it would be otherwise.

    Honestly, I am having tons of fun over there. Way more fun then I have had in DDO for some time and one thing about neverwinter from a newbie perspective which blows DDO away is it's graphics. It is really nice to see hanging clothes move around you as you run through them and hanging practice dummies swing as you hit them or walk into them.

    As character building generally gets more complicated as time goes on and content development becomes easier not harder for good companies neverwinter should be drawing away players from DDO steadily. Heck, their foundry system alone makes neverwinters amount of content and ease of content creation so clearly superior to DDO it's not even funny.
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