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  1. #1
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Default All right enough already its time for an "LFM/Grouping pass"

    Time to do something to save the games grouping.

    Right now a LFM for a level 10 quest is up that has level range set to 10 to 12 ***? 2 level range? Why does this happen so often? Are people that ignorant of XP mechanics?
    21 avarage LFM's on Thelanis over the last two hours, 4 or so in my level range, three have been up for hours without filling.

    So after a Eyes of stone with four of us in party I started an Assault on Summerfield with two of them, the fourth person said: "I can't do quests of that level until I gain a level" and dropped. Not even a TR!
    ARRGGGH! stop it people, you're getting no XP at all just sitting their stairing at the LFM window (though he probably soloed something whatever).
    Spent 30 minutes with no joiners... Gave up.

    Sitting here typing this wondering if Turbine is even aware at how borked their entire grouping system is?

    * First of all no one knows what a proper level range is, enforce a sensible one by default and let leaders change it with a dialog that indicates what a valid range.
    * next get teleport to quest entrance working and make LFM starters choose the quest properly
    * DO NOT ALLOW SOMEONE WHO NEEDS TO FLAG TO JOIN AN LFM, without at least showing them "you need to do these quests to flag" OR radically alter the flagging system, DDO is basically an FPS "map browser" or "server browser" IMO stop pretending it's an RPG at the very least allow ANYONE to enter a quest and get no end reward if they aren't flagged... SHOW the actual quests that need to be done as well. Tabbing to DDwiki is a part of DDO's core gameplay for petes sake, that should be a uncomfortable and demeaning thing to the Devs.
    * make choosing the quest properly not such a stupid pain, update the entire UI put a search field there as you have with the P menu

    /tabs out to check LFM's... yep still nothing.

    * expand the allowed level range by at least 1 in each direction and educate the playerbase that it's no longer a "powerleveling penalty".
    * put in a "grouping streak" where you get a small XP bonus for having 3 or more of the same members from one quest to the next.
    * put in a mentors and sidekicks style mechanic so over levels can forfeit their extra levels for the duration of the quest to play a lower level quest with their friends.
    * consider designing most new non raid content to have a far more dynamic scaling level range like Challenges do. This way wide ranges of levels could run the content and "favor runs" would not have to be "no XP favor only" and "loot runs" would not have to be "no XP loot and favor only"
    * put an LFM tutorial in Korthos.
    * give groups a 2% XP bonus for every member that joins BEFORE "in progress", a lot of people do not like joining IP LFM's I only join them as a last resort or when I really like the quest or know the players in it.

    /Tabs back to game: still just the same "in progress 115 minutes" (sad someone is trying to do Titan and has had 3 people for over four hours before they went IP a while ago, now they are down to two can't believe they actually have this LFM up for so long) Now there's a VON up with a 10 to 12 level range! What the Front door is the deal with that? The same 1 man OOB, and the same Necro 4 1 man... Never going to fill because they've been there for hours.

    The grouping system is clearly strangling DDO, I've spent 6 hours the last two nights with free time to play, and have about 5 completions and lots of Reruns of Workaholics watched for my trouble. there's a critical mass of players that are needed for it to function in it's current "Alpha UI" klunky DDOwiki required state. I believe that critical mass is borderline not there right now (trying NWO?). The player base is clearly getting slowly smaller and the LFM system that could afford some unfriendly klunkyness and bad design when there were plenty of players can no longer afford it.

    No if you'll excuse me I have to select and copy this whole thing so when I am forced to log back in I can paste it back in and tab back into the game.

  2. #2

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    I get where you're coming from. Groups can be tough to fill. These days I solo partly because I don't want to wait for a group to fill and partly because my leveling path is very specific. I have certain quests I hit in a certain order that I find works for me.

    If I happen to be in a group that's doing necro 4 and I only need GoP, I'm not likely to keep going with that group when they go do Madstone Crater afterward if I've already done my GH quests. Groups will break up for a variety of reasons. Refilling a group between runs is going to happen, which is why I find there are a lot of "in progress" runs. People drop in and out as the day goes on. If you stop to refill up to 6 after each run it will end up being slower. Sure not everyone is looking for a speed run, but I think most people would rather be playing than waiting for a group to fill up.

    I blame the very strict xp requirements of a TR2+. If I'm level 15, I'm going to be doing GH walkups and Lordsmarch 2. That's my leveling path for that particular level. My guildies and friends might be level 14 and doing Wizard King farms. Even though I'm only one level higher, I'm pretty much excluded from that group because of the xp hit they take. I'm also very unlikely to run necro 4 at level 15 as I need them later on at level 16 to make my progress more smooth. Basically, I'm stuck in a very narrow range of quests I can do at any given time if I want to make my 18-20 path as easy as I can. If there were a bit more to do at level 16+ I think this issue would be lessened as you'd have more paths to take and more choices of what quests to run on your way to 20. Turbine added a potentially great pack recently in that range with Druid's Deep, but unfortunately valued the heroic xp on the quests so low that it's a non factor, at least to me.

  3. #3
    Community Member ~Adolf_Christ's Avatar
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    No, no, 1000 times NO!

    I agree in principal with some of the points you made.

    But...
    I'm thinking of the "upgrade" to the billing system & it's associated issues.
    I'm thinking of "upraded" forums.
    I'm thinking about the "improved" enhancement system.
    I'm thinking if they start spacificly doing things to "improve" our pug scene, it'll get the same thorough, well thought out treatment of the above mentioned.

    I'm sorry, as badly as our LFGing could use some genuine improvements, just no. PLEASE, NO!

    Also copying so I can relog to paste & post... What do you think this level of "fixing" would do for the pug scene?

  4. #4
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf_Christ View Post
    No, no, 1000 times NO!

    I agree in principal with some of the points you made.

    But...
    I'm thinking of the "upgrade" to the billing system & it's associated issues.
    I'm thinking of "upraded" forums.
    I'm thinking about the "improved" enhancement system.
    I'm thinking if they start spacificly doing things to "improve" our pug scene, it'll get the same thorough, well thought out treatment of the above mentioned.

    I'm sorry, as badly as our LFGing could use some genuine improvements, just no. PLEASE, NO!

    Also copying so I can relog to paste & post... What do you think this level of "fixing" would do for the pug scene?
    /Pre-login so I don't get redirected away from this thread when I hit "reply"... this is madness, hey that's the title of my next thread.

    I hear what you're saying and I agree more and more with the sentiment, I believe they're only a really bad streak right now. IMO leaving grouping in its current state is actually going to cause a rapid loss of players... because there's nothing less fun than spending 6 hours trying to have fun but only managing 2 hours of fun and 4 hours of waiting.

    Grouping/LFM's right now are a lever (stay with me here) like a teeter totter, once enough players stop playing the WHOLE THING wallops over to the other side and pounds into the ground. Critical mass is needed to keep it healthy, and that mass is borderline, and dwindling. Even players like me who are patient and can wait a long time for a group to fill, only have so much they can stand. I am spending 2 to 1 ratio TRYING to play DDO to actually in a quest. No matter how much I like the deep characterization and FPS controls, I can't see spending twice as much time wanting to play but waiting to fill, as actually playing... I can't keep doing it. I also am sick and tired of needing to tab to wiki to figure out what quest I need before I can run the one in the LFM window... People are being kept out of groups for no other reason than lousy flagging design and silly needless RPG quest progression hold overs in a game that is barely an RPG.

    /copy in case I didn't type this fast enough and need to relog, now for my next rant;

    EDIT: I literally had to login before AND AFTER this attempted post LOL
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 05-01-2013 at 12:29 AM. Reason: Turbined

  5. #5
    Community Member ~Phill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Time to do something to save the games grouping.

    Right now a LFM for a level 10 quest is up that has level range set to 10 to 12 ***? 2 level range? Why does this happen so often? Are people that ignorant of XP mechanics?
    People either don't want to drag underlevel characters through or forfeit the BB streak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    So after a Eyes of stone with four of us in party I started an Assault on Summerfield with two of them, the fourth person said: "I can't do quests of that level until I gain a level" and dropped. Not even a TR!
    Was he trying to keep BB streak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    ARRGGGH! stop it people, you're getting no XP at all just sitting their stairing at the LFM window (though he probably soloed something whatever).
    Spent 30 minutes with no joiners... Gave up.
    Umm, what were you doing for that 30 minutes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * First of all no one knows what a proper level range is, enforce a sensible one by default and let leaders change it with a dialog that indicates what a valid range.
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * next get teleport to quest entrance working and make LFM starters choose the quest properly
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * DO NOT ALLOW SOMEONE WHO NEEDS TO FLAG TO JOIN AN LFM, without at least showing them "you need to do these quests to flag" OR radically alter the flagging system, DDO is basically an FPS "map browser" or "server browser" IMO stop pretending it's an RPG at the very least allow ANYONE to enter a quest and get no end reward if they aren't flagged... SHOW the actual quests that need to be done as well. Tabbing to DDwiki is a part of DDO's core gameplay for petes sake, that should be a uncomfortable and demeaning thing to the Devs.
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * make choosing the quest properly not such a stupid pain, update the entire UI put a search field there as you have with the P menu
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * expand the allowed level range by at least 1 in each direction and educate the playerbase that it's no longer a "powerleveling penalty".
    I don't know about expanding it but quest level -minus 2 seems fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * put in a "grouping streak" where you get a small XP bonus for having 3 or more of the same members from one quest to the next.
    /no
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * put in a mentors and sidekicks style mechanic so over levels can forfeit their extra levels for the duration of the quest to play a lower level quest with their friends.
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * consider designing most new non raid content to have a far more dynamic scaling level range like Challenges do. This way wide ranges of levels could run the content and "favor runs" would not have to be "no XP favor only" and "loot runs" would not have to be "no XP loot and favor only"
    /agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * put an LFM tutorial in Korthos.
    /agreed
    Often thought you should have to put up/join a closed LFM for the Grotto quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    * give groups a 2% XP bonus for every member that joins BEFORE "in progress", a lot of people do not like joining IP LFM's I only join them as a last resort or when I really like the quest or know the players in it.
    /no

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The grouping system is clearly strangling DDO, I've spent 6 hours the last two nights with free time to play, and have about 5 completions and lots of Reruns of Workaholics watched for my trouble. there's a critical mass of players that are needed for it to function in it's current "Alpha UI" klunky DDOwiki required state. I believe that critical mass is borderline not there right now (trying NWO?). The player base is clearly getting slowly smaller and the LFM system that could afford some unfriendly klunkyness and bad design when there were plenty of players can no longer afford it.
    I would go the oposite and say soloing is saving the game.

  6. #6
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    None of your problems have anything to do with the LFM system. They have everything to do with the majority of the players still playing do not want anything to do with PUGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Right now a LFM for a level 10 quest is up that has level range set to 10 to 12 ***? 2 level range? Why does this happen so often? Are people that ignorant of XP mechanics?
    They likely know exactly what the XP mechanic is. And they do not want anyone in the group that is going to break Bravery, nor do they want anyone who isn't close to the top level for the quest tagging along, as the ones who hit LFMs for something like that typically end up being -10% type players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    21 avarage LFM's on Thelanis over the last two hours, 4 or so in my level range, three have been up for hours without filling.
    Usually the type of party that sets for hours is the type of group that no one wants to be in. Many people would be quick to join a LFM that's listed as IP or 'starting soon', because they are more likely to lead to smooth, quick runs. The parties that wait around forever are much more likely to require someone to drag them through the quests.

    It seems like pretty much all of your points have to do with people not playing the way that you want them to, and nothing at all to do with the actual game mechanics. Sorry to hear that you aren't happy with things. But this is entirely a community issue, not a game problem. Most people have gone to private channel groups or solo/short-manning things with friends precisely because they are sick of the LFM PUGing community.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 05-01-2013 at 01:59 AM.

  7. #7
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    There's a pretty simple solution to all the "problems" that are presented in the OP.

    Post your own LFM, that solves all of the issues, no revamp to LFM system needed based on what has been said in this thread so far. I dont' think Turbine should be restricting how the LFM panel works so that other people will play the way you want them too, I think this will cause less people to use the panel and less pugging altogether.

    edit: Also note that if you hit share quest it will notify both you and teh recipient that they aren't flagged for the quest should flagging be required for the quest in question. The flagging system is fine, I've never needed to use Ddowiki to flag for a quest.
    Last edited by Snowballz; 05-01-2013 at 03:06 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member ~Taeb's Avatar
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    im ok with the mentoring idea but no to the rest. what they should really do is allow cross serving lfms like Rift does for pvp, raiding and their dungeons. It works great for them. I dont see why not for us.

  9. #9
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    Do not see an issue with the lfm panel. Make a group put IP BYOH and go. Amazing how fast Iget exp on my cleric with compentent groups.

  10. #10
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    Agreed with the main idea of the OP. The "you are not flagged" suggestion for LFMs is one I made in the old forums a couple of years ago. Ofc my old account name and history is lost and I'm not jumping through loops to recover the couple dozen messages I had before.

    With the growing competition this game cannot afford the 7 year-old UI it has now. Enhancements UI overhaul is just a first step on the right direction (I'm not talking the actual changes to the enhancements themselves; just a more user-friendly UI).

    Just to put another example of past century UI: a new player that wants to wield two weapons needs to now beforehand there are 3 feats in the tree and the last one requires a dex score of 17 just with base dex + level ups + tomes. And if that player has already picked two of the three feats in the tree, the next time he gets to choose a feat he gets greater TWF presented with the same relevance, visual cues, etc. than feats such as "negotiator" or "acrobatic", or Two handed fighting.

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Now there's a VON up with a 10 to 12 level range! What the Front door is the deal with that?
    umm that's the level range it should be von 5 is a level 10 quest so up to level 12 gets a bravery bonus. Typical at level runs go as soon as there are enough people to do the doors in the north. You keep the lower bracket at 10 because it's a unlikely to get people flagged before then, and under level 10 toons are likely to be a burden in a shortman elite bravery bonus run and while you can carry people it not enjoyable to do so.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Right now a LFM for a level 10 quest is up that has level range set to 10 to 12 ***? 2 level range? Why does this happen so often? Are people that ignorant of XP mechanics?
    Maybe YOU don't understand the mechanics. What level was that set for? Hard? Elite? If it was either of those you wouldn't want more than a L12 in your party as it would break the BB streak.

    As for lower, I suppose most people are looking for an easy quest and they don't want underlevels along who may or may not contribute as much. Of course nothing stops you from trying to join anyway.

    21 avarage LFM's on Thelanis over the last two hours, 4 or so in my level range, three have been up for hours without filling.
    Which tells us nothing. How many of those 3 are from people who are AFK and forgot to take it down? Who are known to be "don't group with" people or guilds? Are running quests people don't tend to like? Are running quests that break BB, don't give full XP, or where there is something "odd" about the LFM (like a L9 posting for a L10 quest on elite and asking for L10-12 only)

    So after a Eyes of stone with four of us in party I started an Assault on Summerfield with two of them, the fourth person said: "I can't do quests of that level until I gain a level" and dropped. Not even a TR!
    ARRGGGH! stop it people, you're getting no XP at all just sitting their stairing at the LFM window (though he probably soloed something whatever).
    Spent 30 minutes with no joiners... Gave up.
    Wait, you waited 30 minutes with 3 people in group? Why didn't you just run the quest and mark it IP?

    * First of all no one knows what a proper level range is, enforce a sensible one by default and let leaders change it with a dialog that indicates what a valid range.
    Education is good, but its not worth a big effort, sounds like most people understand the mechanic as is.

    * next get teleport to quest entrance working and make LFM starters choose the quest properly
    * DO NOT ALLOW SOMEONE WHO NEEDS TO FLAG TO JOIN AN LFM, without at least showing them "you need to do these quests to flag" OR radically alter the flagging system, DDO is basically an FPS "map browser" or "server browser" IMO stop pretending it's an RPG at the very least allow ANYONE to enter a quest and get no end reward if they aren't flagged... SHOW the actual quests that need to be done as well. Tabbing to DDwiki is a part of DDO's core gameplay for petes sake, that should be a uncomfortable and demeaning thing to the Devs.
    * make choosing the quest properly not such a stupid pain, update the entire UI put a search field there as you have with the P menu
    these are fine, although quite overstated.

    /tabs out to check LFM's... yep still nothing.
    Where is your LFM? If everyone sits and waits for others they get what you have, nothing.

    [/QUOTE]* expand the allowed level range by at least 1 in each direction and educate the playerbase that it's no longer a "powerleveling penalty".[/QUOTE]

    It won't help as long as the BB mechanic is in place.

    * put in a "grouping streak" where you get a small XP bonus for having 3 or more of the same members from one quest to the next.
    This won't work, there are lots of valid reasons for people to break group and what you are doing would actually discourage grouping since people who could only run one quest would solo so as to avoid being the person that drops and costs the group XP.

    * put in a mentors and sidekicks style mechanic so over levels can forfeit their extra levels for the duration of the quest to play a lower level quest with their friends.
    Levels aren't the big problem. Equipment is. What exactly does that SoS function as in a L2 quest? (And that's an easy one, now go figure out what happens to a named epic item with 5 different abilities)

    * consider designing most new non raid content to have a far more dynamic scaling level range like Challenges do. This way wide ranges of levels could run the content and "favor runs" would not have to be "no XP favor only" and "loot runs" would not have to be "no XP loot and favor only"
    That would require a complete remake of the favor system and each and every quest in the game. I vote no.

    * put an LFM tutorial in Korthos.
    Yes

    * give groups a 2% XP bonus for every member that joins BEFORE "in progress", a lot of people do not like joining IP LFM's I only join them as a last resort or when I really like the quest or know the players in it.
    No! This discourages grouping as it forces people to wait around a long time to fill a group - time that could be used playing the game. All this will do is force people to drop group where the idiot leader wants to wait for a full group and go solo something themselves.

    /Tabs back to game: still just the same "in progress 115 minutes" (sad someone is trying to do Titan and has had 3 people for over four hours before they went IP a while ago, now they are down to two can't believe they actually have this LFM up for so long)
    How's your LFM doing?

    The grouping system is clearly strangling DDO, I've spent 6 hours the last two nights with free time to play
    I've had this week off and have had more chance than normal to play. My groups have been full (I consider 4-6 full) before starting most of the time, and I start in 10 min or less even if I'm the only one in the party. I use the default level range of normal level to normal+2 every time, although I will accept under levels most of the time unless its a very tough quest. No idea why your LFMs aren't filling.

    Personally I find the LFM system pretty effective with a couple of exceptions:
    1) It should handle epic difficulties better
    2) It should grey out things you aren't flagged for
    3) Put in place a robust search system for quest selection and add the ability to post an LFM from the compendium quest list page

    No if you'll excuse me I have to select and copy this whole thing so when I am forced to log back in I can paste it back in and tab back into the game.
    Yeah, PITA isn't it? lol

  13. #13
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    I'm in agreement with a lot of what is being said. I don't think his suggestions force anyone to play in his style. You can still edit and restrict as you like (unless I misread OP intent). The suggestions are just made so the casual or uneducated can easily put up a LFM with a reasonable chance of success. The OP can also create an LFM, but that will only allow for 6 (or 12 if raid) people to be occupied. He is suggesting that there is a growing number of people who are sitting around doing nothing because they may not know how the LFM works. If those people continue to sit around and do nothing they will leave the game. I would agree that this is the case as I look at the LFM panel lately.

    While I can think of a few people I'd love to have leave the game, overall it is a bad thing to have people get bored and stop playing. So making the LFM default to better stats for the average player, but allowing the more educated or discerning player to edit the options may lead to more people posting LFMs that fill more frequently. Sure it may get some trash players, but if they play more they will eventually learn. Instead they stand around and do (and learn)nothing and no one benefits.

    Remember not everyone is a TR on the character they are currently playing (and also remember that some are ). To that end on my non-TR rogue I'm bummed that at level 16 I can't run elite GH walkups. I mean I can, but no LFM will have me and I don't think I'm over powered by any stretch (though I can certainly hold my own and likely lead in kill count). They won't have me because they "think" I break the BB streak(more below). At the same time the 4x TR WF sorc that is level 9 and would love to step into a Von 5/6 for some fun is excluded. I can't remember the last time I ran an at level Von 5/6 because the groups almost never fill or get posted for (I'm waiting for the slew of uber players to brag about how they run it at level all the time. Sometimes 100 times per life......).

    With regard to "thinking" the bb streak is broken. I could be wrong here, but as I understood the mechanic if you have someone in your group above the cap your streak is NOT broken. It just doesn't count towards that run. So if you had a 15 BB elite streak going and you ran said Von 5/6 with a level 13 you wouldn't get the BB exp on top of your normal exp for that run, but if you ran a Made to Order directly after on elite your BB streak would jump to 16 and you'd get your bonus. Two people have posted saying the "streak" would be broken and I think this is perpetuating a fear. I believe the posters probably meant just the bb bonus, but in saying streak the BB myth grows and more people don't understand and post restrictive LFMs when it is not necessary.

    Now I could be wrong here, but I don't think I am. That being said I think some people get too hung up on BB. I mean if it actually broke your streak and your a 2+ time TR I get that. But if it's not breaking your streak and you miss the bonus exp for just a single quest it's not the end of the world. Again for maybe competitionists every exp point counts, but I see too many non-TR players get hung up on BB. If I'm concerned about my BB streak getting broken for a quest i missed and want the favor for (like my example above about Trial by Fire - GH Walk up) I will run it for level 16 at normal, then hard then elite, but my streak will not have been broken because I'm over the level cap.

    Also many non-TRs don't seem to realize that the actual bb streak gets capped at 5. I mean you can continue on forever, but after 5 there is no additional value beyond bragging rights. So if you break it it's not the end of the world. It only takes 5 runs to get it back. I see too many people pass on quests and get no exp and sit around for hours when they could have easily run the quest and gotten the 5 runs to get bb back in that time.

  14. #14
    Community Member ~Die-mmak's Avatar
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    It's not the LFM that's borked, it's pugging. Mind there are certainly some good ideas listed by op on making lfm's more user friendly, but meh, all that can be worked around, bad pugs just ruin your gaming experience for a night. Pugging is such a hit or miss with mostly miss that it's almost not worth the bother.

    Ex- put up an lfm last life for vale elite streak with myself and one other in the party (TR partner), listed as BYOH and IP (goal to get people who knew where they were going and could at least sort of heal themselves.)

    Monk hits, I'm thinking great a monk. I take him. He dies in every single quest at least 4 times each. Meh, he tried hard and wasn't trying to blame others for his deaths, and so we kept him and raised him and heck we all die from time to time, so overall not horrible put.

    Next to join was a lv 18, 190 hp human sorc... I don't have time for that. He was booted faster than Junk could nerd rage on someone for dragging Anna into combat. If you are a two hit wonder you shouldn't be joining byoh elites.

    Then I got a lv 18, 600ish hp fighter. I am not one that bases things just on hp, but well at least it was more than 300 he'll likely contribute. WRONG! Quest one, Rainbow, he says oh I'm lagging, and pikes at entrance. We ddoor back for him and wait 3-4 minutes typing and calling to him over voice. He's clearly afk. We move on and as we get to the end of the quest he's says, is anyone every coming back for me? I let it slide. Then we did ritual and yep, he piked at entrance, then ran past mobs without fighting, then hid in corners while we killed. I didn't care how many hp's he had, if you suck you suck, das boot. (He btw proceeded to curse me out in tells for being an elitist jerk. It's not elitist to think people shouldn't die in one or two hits and oh I don't know maybe contribute more to the party than scaling. (BTW if you are that fighter that sent me all the nasty tells, "reported" lol) JK I didn't even squelch you as i figured it wasn't your fault you didn't know how to play without a hireling cleric or dedicated healer keeping you up. Heck when we catch back up to you this life, as I'm sure you'll still be at lv 18 by the time we get there, unless someone carries you to 20, I'll even let you back into our parties to see if you've figured out how to play yet.

    In the end, out of the 6 people to join over the quests we got two who actually contributed and were alive more than dead. It would be different if this wasn't a normal experience with pugging, but it's pretty much the norm at least for the past year or two.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Die-mmak View Post
    It's not the LFM that's borked, it's pugging. Mind there are certainly some good ideas listed by op on making lfm's more user friendly, but meh, all that can be worked around, bad pugs just ruin your gaming experience for a night. Pugging is such a hit or miss with mostly miss that it's almost not worth the bother.

    Ex- put up an lfm last life for vale elite streak with myself and one other in the party (TR partner), listed as BYOH and IP (goal to get people who knew where they were going and could at least sort of heal themselves.)

    Monk hits, I'm thinking great a monk. I take him. He dies in every single quest at least 4 times each. Meh, he tried hard and wasn't trying to blame others for his deaths, and so we kept him and raised him and heck we all die from time to time, so overall not horrible put.

    Next to join was a lv 18, 190 hp human sorc... I don't have time for that. He was booted faster than Junk could nerd rage on someone for dragging Anna into combat. If you are a two hit wonder you shouldn't be joining byoh elites.

    Then I got a lv 18, 600ish hp fighter. I am not one that bases things just on hp, but well at least it was more than 300 he'll likely contribute. WRONG! Quest one, Rainbow, he says oh I'm lagging, and pikes at entrance. We ddoor back for him and wait 3-4 minutes typing and calling to him over voice. He's clearly afk. We move on and as we get to the end of the quest he's says, is anyone every coming back for me? I let it slide. Then we did ritual and yep, he piked at entrance, then ran past mobs without fighting, then hid in corners while we killed. I didn't care how many hp's he had, if you suck you suck, das boot. (He btw proceeded to curse me out in tells for being an elitist jerk. It's not elitist to think people shouldn't die in one or two hits and oh I don't know maybe contribute more to the party than scaling. (BTW if you are that fighter that sent me all the nasty tells, "reported" lol) JK I didn't even squelch you as i figured it wasn't your fault you didn't know how to play without a hireling cleric or dedicated healer keeping you up. Heck when we catch back up to you this life, as I'm sure you'll still be at lv 18 by the time we get there, unless someone carries you to 20, I'll even let you back into our parties to see if you've figured out how to play yet.

    In the end, out of the 6 people to join over the quests we got two who actually contributed and were alive more than dead. It would be different if this wasn't a normal experience with pugging, but it's pretty much the norm at least for the past year or two.
    This post is exceptionally funny because it complains about the quality of pugs, but also explains why your pugs are so bad. You have some "I'm a bad player" qualities, and it's pretty clear that competent players have labeled you as such and avoid your pugs. Perhaps change your style and attitude, and you can redeem yourself.

  16. #16
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    So a couple people have posted that it i snot the LFM issue, but PUG issues.

    So I'll go this route. When I first started this MMORPG I did so on my own. I've got no MMORPG group of people that I hang with and no friends who are into this much so it's just me. (One is the loneliest number in an MMORPG )

    Given this the only way I could get better was to run in PUGs and see how others played and to learn. Many PUGs with with new players (I started when it became free), but there were also experienced players. In short though if it weren't for PUGs I would never have learned and gotten better. Heck I still learn today from players and different styles. Actually if it weren't for PUGs then I probably wouldn't have anyone to play with and it would have went from a MMORPG to a ORPG and I probably would have stopped playing (and paying).

    So while people may point to PUGs being the problem (and believe me I have been in some real time/resource/pot waster groups) if no one uses them and no one joins them any more because they are terrible then new players will stop playing and then it will be just you and your 5 other friends left in the entire game and after some time you will get sick of them too and bored and that will be the end of that.

    PUGs should serve a purpose, but they don't because there are people who abuse them (the example of the piker who joined and sat and didn't contribute) and elitists who think they are too good and can't be bothered by someone a bit slower than them or that they are learning. I guess they forgot the first time they played. Maybe their first character was magically a 47 time TR with 9000 HP and dual wielding eSOSes. Who knows.

    In any case to keep a game alive there has to be something for new players and a mechanism for someone to join random groups to play for a common goal. I have no interest in grabbing an e-beer and becoming internet friends with the guy I just ran eVon 6 with. I am interested in the completion though so I band together with a group of others to get there.

    A mechanism that makes newer people comfortable creating and joining LFMs would be helpful. A different exp mechanic that maybe wasn't so narrow would be helpful too. Maybe if it is a level 10 quest then for level 8-12 everyone gets their precious bb bonus and the streak continued. If a player up to 2 levels above it joins and "power levels" the quest then the 8-12 still get their bb, but the 13-14 level person does not get the bonus on that quest nor does it break or advance their streak though. Maybe the opposite works and a level 6-7 could join with no bb bonus or streak addition (no break either) and if they die then they only get the 10% exp loss, but not the people in the right range. Now it encourages some expansion of ranges and invites more people, but at the same time doesn't discourage others form letting people join.

    just some thoughts

  17. #17
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    The LFM system is not the source of your frustration.

    The XP system is the source of your frustration. It encourages grouping in a tight level range (BB streaks), encourages multiple life TR players into a strict leveling path (TR XP curve), and discourages people from grouping with unknown quantities who may end up penalizing their XP (death penalty).

    Now, none of those are seriously overwhelming, such as -10% isn't really a big hit, but added together the XP system incentivizes players to act in a way that frustrates you. The biggest change would be reducing XP requirements for TR past lives. Then people may start to be a lot less judicious about choosing to in-channel/solo on tight plans versus pug on loose plans. But given that the Turbine store makes money off of XP pots and XP stones don't anticipate this to change anytime soon as its easier to quantify the money they gain from that versus the money they lose from the pug scene generally dying.

  18. #18
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    Really?



    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

  19. #19
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    /relog to get reply button

    Not going to respond to the solo'ers and the "put up LFM go IP immediately" types. That's got nothing to do with grouping issues. I don't want to get into playstyle debates and that's what those are. Also anyone who said "put up your own LFM's" thanks for reading the OP. Forget that I obviously start my own LFM's, many LFM's sit with one player for long periods of time for many reasons, most of them not being "no one likes that guy" a view I find extremely far fetched. Again this is not a "just go" or "solo it you're losing XP by waiting for groups" playstyle issue. This is about the built in UI and XP and grouping and flagging mechanics all needlessly making groups harder to fill.

    I haven't touched on BB because it's a hot button topic and frankly most of my suggestions could theoretically be put in without messing with BB (except to give it the same expanded range).

    But yes the Bravery Bonus could be adjusted to be less punishing to the LFM system. If you think about it BB is simply a first time completion bonus with a "streak" attached to it. The same thing could have been accomplished in more flexible less grouping restrictive ways. But by itself BB is not so harsh on grouping that the other changes wouldn't minimize keeping BB as it is. In other words if we could improve grouping by 40% then the 10% BB excludes would would still net 30% improvement.

    The fact is that some people, I would guesstimate most of players who pug (which would include most newer players logically) want to play an MMO with the "massively multiplayer" or at least "multiplayer" in DDO's 6 to 12 man not really massive, with a "massive banking and traveling map browser" at least partly evident. I want to play an MMO In groups, with other people working as a team, or at least interacting. I don't think this is an unreasonable expectation it is after all a "multiplayer" game... I pug, because interacting with others in a multiplayer game is more fun than suffering through MMO design peculiarities during a solo single player experience. If I want solo, I open up NWN which is a far better D&D translation and download a Module. Or I jump back into Skyrim and pick up where I left off, when I last got tired of an empty but great RPG and decided to play a Multiplayer game.

    Also "IP" to many puggers means "this quest is no longer worth joining". I'm not going to get into playstyle debates everyone should play the game how they want with those of like mind, and as I said I will join an IP as a last resort and I'm often glad their's at least an "IP 3 or 4 minutes" up, because it's the only thing on the board to do... Again I do not think it's unreasonable to expect this "MMO" to make grouping as stream lined and user friendly as possible by improving the UI, and removing artificial and needless "exclusions" like hard flagging (can't even red door) and many other silly and arbitrary bad design choices Turbine has made.

    /copy, tab to login window, relog, tab back and hit send

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Not going to respond to the solo'ers and the "put up LFM go IP immediately" types. That's got nothing to do with grouping issues. I don't want to get into playstyle debates and that's what those are.
    So rather than debate playstyles, you simply want to make your own playstyle '30% more' efficient as you say later. Because you can't find anyone who wants to play with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Also anyone who said "put up your own LFM's" thanks for reading the OP. Forget that I obviously start my own LFM's, many LFM's sit with one player for long periods of time for many reasons, most of them not being "no one likes that guy" a view I find extremely far fetched.
    So, your initial position is that if people simply set a wider level range for their LFMs, more people will join them. And to support this position, you use the wider level ranges that you think the system should shove at people, and no one joins your groups? I really don't think that this has anything to do with people "not knowing what they are doing" and everything to do with people not liking the way that you do things.

    I love how often people claim that others leave their lousy XP groups and then "Set around for hours." I would like to know where you get that idea. Because it seems much more likely to me that these people simply leave their groups, and then go and do it or something else themselves, rather than losing Bravery Bonus or having to carry others that do not seem to want to adapt the way that they do things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    But yes the Bravery Bonus could be adjusted to be less punishing to the LFM system. If you think about it BB is simply a first time completion bonus with a "streak" attached to it. The same thing could have been accomplished in more flexible less grouping restrictive ways.
    Except that the entire point of Bravery Bonus was to reward people playing more difficult content. Granted, many other systems could have done this, and many done it better. But this is the one that we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I want to play an MMO In groups, with other people working as a team, or at least interacting.
    Great. This is something that should absolutely be emphasized. Games without new blood die off, and games where new players can not find people to play with look like they are already dead. But as I said before, the issues with LFMs are rooted in the community, not the system itself. And this kind of changes to the LFM are not going to make people any less exclusionary. It will just make them dual box with alt accounts so that they don't have to deal with other people ~and~ they can get whatever reward mechanics you want built into grouping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Also "IP" to many puggers means "this quest is no longer worth joining". I'm not going to get into playstyle debates everyone should play the game how they want with those of like mind
    You keep saying this. And then you say that the game needs to be changed so that more people will play like you play. Do you even see how hypocritical it is to say "Everyone should play the game how they want with those of a like mind" and then say "These changes need to be made to promote people playing with my mindset!" Right now, everyone is free to play as they want, with those that they want. And 'IP BYOH' is the predominate method chosen.

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