Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Class and PRE balance, relevance and customization

    As I stare at the big picture of the enhancement pass and watch the conversations going back and forth and see how the alpha looks, there seems to be an underlying discomfort. Two quotes kinda frame this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've had some internal discussions along the lines of rewarding your investment in class levels, and how that weighs against character build choices and multiclassing. There have been some public suggestions on these forums that Tier 5 enhancements should require 12 or 18 class levels, as well as only 1 class level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The power-gamer in me is drooling over some of the ubber-combos we see, yet the DM in me is saying "no way in hell would I allow this."
    These are kinda it.

    Enhancements are too powerful. Classes, class features and feats are correspondingly less powerful. EDs are already more powerful than classes and in many ways you can think of them as simply power multipliers. Combined, this leads us to start looking at the most powerful builds to be the ones that can chain together the most stacking PRE features within the 3-tree limit that will be multiplied by the ED features.

    So, my opinions. I personally think this is out of whack. You may disagree, so be it - but I figured I’d post my point of view.

    I want multiclassing to be important and viable.

    Cherry-picking classes just to get access to a PRE isn’t as much multi-”classing” and more about “PRE qualification”. This is especially true for melee classes where the PRE abilities offer far more “power” than the inherent class features.

    I can’t find the quote (think it was Durnak) but the new enhancements are the real power - the classes are what you have left over once you figure out what things you want. This similar to what we see with EDs - the power is in the ED. If you’re a self-healing cleave monger, you’re going to be pretty brutal in Fury or LD even if your base class is Wizard.

    Anyway, I think this is fine for epics - however, I think the feeling and undercurrent of discomfort is that maybe it shouldn’t be the case in heroic.

    Guiding Principles - this is where my head is.

    (1) Core class abilities should matter.
    (2) Multiclassing should involve a trade-off or realistic give and take. Some classes offer very little incentive.
    (3) Where this needs to be adjusted is in BOTH the classes themselves, some select feats and in the proposed PRE trees.
    (4) Primarily, choices in class abilities (for me) and when to multiclass should be based on CLASS abilities, and not the PRE trees. Some classes are inherently stronger than others, and unless we get balance here what we’ll see is strong PREs on weak classes cherry picked by people on stronger classes.
    (5) PRE abilities need to also build on these advanced core abilities, to provide additional motivation and make the trade-offs more equitable.
    (6) The decision to stay in a class should be fairly healthily tied to what is in the class, not what you need to take the PRE benefit.

    Some classes offer progressive features, others remain flat. Some offer a mix - say scaling casting capabilities + feats or abilities. Some only offer one (say, increased casting).
    *** Before we balance any of these PRE trees, we need to balance the classes a bit else the goal will be to grab as little as possible from class B to get the PRE abilities we want to layer on top of class A, etc.

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default

    FINAL DISCLAIMER / ALTERNATIVE:

    I’m posting this as I suspect the basic framework (one racial + 3 class trees) is set-in-stone, or at least quick-dry concrete. These suggestions assume that framework.

    IF the framework is up for debate, I’d suggest an alternate something like:
    • 1 racial tree
    • up to 3 class trees ... these would contain generic class items ... skill boost, etc.
    • at least two (and maybe only two) PRE trees ... these would be smaller / skinnier than the current alpha proposed trees and would be tailored to just that specific PRE and have no class-generic-boosting abilities. Taking later abilities in one tree should lock you out of taking abilities beyond the mid in other PREs (either mathematically, or as a gate). Consider also tying DC-based PRE abilities and others to character level.
    • maintain my suggestion above to allow easier PRE qualification

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default

    General Enhancement Tree Request
    Where possible, one a tree is opened, do not limit the tree by class level. Instead, limit the selection of items in the tree by character level, points spent in a tree or enabled feats. This would allow classes that could achieve the same or similar feats to unlock the enhancements. The limitations on character level and points spent will ensure that people who are serious about one particular tree are invested in it - and not just cherry picking. That’s the issue - the lower-level cherry picking. No one is going to say that a Wizard who takes Fire Savant and maxes it out is going to break the game. What will be more powerful will be the wizard who takes some FVS and maybe Sorc not because their class abilities synergize, but because they can achieve a multiplicative effect based on PRE abilities.

    We’re already limited by 3 PREs, and some of those are really near-mandatory extensions of our core class. Make PRE qualification easier and not tied simply to class. Allow other thematic capabilities to open PREs.
    • Druid -> Savant
    • Dragonmarks -> appropriate PREs (Storm=Air Savant, Shadow=Assassin, etc.)
    • Races -> appropriate PREs (Stalwart is currently not appropriate for anyone)
    • Sorc / Wiz access to Savants / AM / PM equally
    • Cleric / FVS sharing PREs



    It is appropriate to have capabilities that require other feats (including feats that are auto-grants) or similar capabilities. All of the crit-range expanding would be fine to require Improved Crit or Power Critical before taking, for instance. Requiring the ability to cast 4th or 6th level spells. Etc.

    It is appropriate to push some things off and split them between an early and a late benefit. I totally love the fact a fighter dip can get me a bunch of tactics boosts, but

    For things that are really “PRE related” abilities and not “enhanced class abilities or tricks”, tie those to character level and not class level.

    For powerful abilities, they can absolutely require a chunk of native points. 4 or 6 AP is what we pay for big ones on live. If it is worth it, it is worth it.

    Roll these together and you get a series of changes - some make it easier, some make it harder but hopefully will achieve ...
    • PREs will be limited by the 3 trees
    • Specific abilities should be gated by character level, points spent in tree, feats, abilities (ability to cast x level spells or a specific spell even)
    • Opening up PREs should be easier, but not at the expense of core class features. Let’s look at the class benefits to determine when to multiclass, not the PRE abilities we want to snag.



    More specific (but still general) changes to the enhancements
    Consider if the ability granted by the PRE is stronger than or trumps core class ability or feat. The DEX to attack and damage doesn’t need to show up in 3 different trees. This pigeon holes anyone who wants to be a DEX build into dipping one of those classes. Instead, roll these features into Weapon Finesse.

    Improve Combat Casting - give it a progressive bonus to the concentration check (or hell, allow it to double your concentration score).

    Remove Wand and Scroll Heightening ... or alter it to be useful. It seems to be used as a placeholder / common enhancement prior to Wand and Scroll mastery and it is a tragically bad enhancement. Consider allowing it to be a bonus to the DC of all items, making it somewhat passingly useful as items scale.

    Too many clickies. This isn’t active, this is past-saturation.

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Artificer

    As a core class with lots of feats granted throughout, this is a class with good built-in progressive abilities. There’s lots of reasons within the class to take varying levels - feats and spellcasting helps this.
    • - The battle mechanic PRE is, on the whole, pretty solid.
    • - The ability to take melee weapon enhancements and still take fusilade is great - don’t make this a chained dependency - it is good as it is.
    • - Compared to other PREs, the weapon damage bonuses are solid, but not overpowering. These are in-line with how I’d expect a PRE to be.
    • - Weapon Attachment is a bad ability. The cool-down is too long, especially on a class that is likely to swap weapons or (since it has bonuses to using items) going to be using items and scrolls constantly. This either needs to be a passive bonus or have a much shorter cool-down.
    • - Tactical Mobility is a great enhancement.
    • - The arcanotech is ok ... but do you think it will be able to drive meaningful spell DCs in epic content? Do you mean for it to be a DC-based caster? If so, provide boosts that can only be acquired after some investment into meaningful DCs. Lots of points spent, the ability to cast 6th level arcane spells, etc.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Barbarian

    A solid class with some really great PREs. It has the framework for progressive class features, but these do not scale in DDO with the rate of things like HP, etc.
    • At DR 4, 6 and 7 given an additional DR, so the final DR scales to 10. Also give some small amount of PRR.
    • Not as familiar w/ the PREs (as I don’t play them often) but Shade’s got some good write-ups.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Bard

    Oddly, bards have decent scaling built into the class. They have some class abilities (Inspire Heroics) that only come on-line with levels in the primary class. This means that feats that require things like that will drive bards to minimum pure levels if they like.
    • - Tie more of the inherent abilities NOT just into “adding to inspire courage” ... have some add to inspire competence and inspire heroics. Possibly tie the enthrall chain and recklessness to suggestion song; definitely tie Fervor to suggestion song, plus add a later one after mass suggestion song.
    • - Spellsinger is in a good place, in general. I think the chains need to be reworked into the (a) funky defense chain (with flicker, etc.) (b) rejuvenating chain (spellsong vigor, old virt health regen song) (c) additional song-based CC (enthrall, caper, etc.) and (d) spellcasting boosting (spell song trance, arcane might, spell penetration) ... and they should have dependencies up the chain but not across.
    • - DC song doesn’t stack with ship buffs. Song should remain morale, ship buffs should be made not to stack with items again. Class features should be more relevant than items or ship buffs.
    • - Consider some of them as requiring suggesting song.
    • - Marigold Crown is good
    • - Make Prodigy a multi-selector between enhancement DC or sonic spell DC
    • - Adding Wail / Heal is a nice touch ... make this a multi-selector for (A) Heal + Wail or (B) Symbol of Stunning + Mass Hold Monster
    • - War Chanter is quite weak - the best melee bard right now looks like a mostly Spell Singer + some fighter or rogue with little or nothing from the War Chanter tree.
    • - Add more instant-effect songs that provide a boost. Song that grants a personal weapon augmentation to add sonic damage. Scaling in later tiers or levels to add Roaring or Improved Roaring. Thundering Armor.
    • - Ironskin chant needs to scale to either higher DR, adding PRR or both
    • - Songs that replicate bard spells are somewhat lame, unless these are the kinds of spells you want to last through dispelling or are handy and save time by hitting a burst - drop Feast. Add instead “Fog of War” - a song that creates Solid Fog.
    • - Recklessness doublestrike chance doesn’t stack with most items, and should be fixed.
    • - Add to the Warmaster’s capstone Power Word Stun, Power Word Kill - both as 6th level spells and Greater Command (5th)

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Cleric

    Love clerics. They need more bulit-in class features. Turn Undead count scales with CHA, not directly with class level and aside from spellcasting there is little power built into the class. Remedying this with PREs leads to the possibility of unintended cherry picking, ultimately cheapening the class and PREs further.
    • Compensate for the lack of domains adding feats from a restricted list to clerics ... possibly at 1st, 8th and 16th. This should include Extra Turning, Improved Turning, new faith-based feats and new turn-undead-based feats.
    • Faith-based personal combat boost should use a turn and provide a thematic boost ... Lord of Blades may expend a turn undead to add [w] to their melee attacks for one short duration or expand their crit range, add metal-DR bypass flags; Silver Flame may do similar to add “corcuscating”; Vulkoor may add poison, or sneak dice, etc.
    • Make Divine Might a feat again. Divine Might should provide a flat bonus, not scaled based on CHA - possibly based on Turning Level / some factor.
    • Faith-based non-melee feats could be things like an ablative armor (lord of blades), radiant/fire spell power boost (silver flame), positive energy infusion (undying court), boost to poison / stat damagers (vulkoor), etc. ... short term boosts powered by turns ...
    • Selecting one or more of these should add a spell to their spell list. Reconstruct (Lord of Blades), Cloud Kill or Invisibility (Vulkoor), Sunburst (Silver Flame), Control Undead or (Undying Court), etc.
    • Divine Metamagic - one feat each for maximize, extend, heighten ... possibly others. This should be a 30 second clickie similar to “Lesser Maximize” found on the cove dagger, etc. and makes the metamagic free for the duration
    • Cleric PREs are currently ****. I won’t bother addressing them.

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Druid

    Druid is one of the core classes that historically has excellent progressive abilities. It has class features stronger than some entire classes in PNP afterall(nacht). Druid doesn’t need many changes to the core class, as a late-appearing heal, the progression on natural fighting and elemental forms really makes the choice to multiclass difficult.
    • Nature’s Warrior needs to have abilities targeted for elemental-form meleers
    • Alpha Strike should require Dire Bear or Winter Wolf
    • Similarly, there’s no reason why some Season’s Herald abilities (crown of summer) to require Fire Elemental form.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Favored Soul

    This is a class with awesome features that would keep you in it ... Pre-U14.
    • DR at cap needs to scale. Make it DR 15 or 20.
    • Consider increasing built-in resistances similar to how favored enemies work. First resistance 10 inherent ... second resistance 10 inherent, increase first to 15 inherent
    • Increase damage for Favored of the Lord of Blades from 2 to 3 points ... weapon damage boosts need to scale.
    • Give an option for Favored of the Silver Flame to grant either +2 Damage, or Bow Strength.
    • AOV remains a solid caster PRE.
    • They need the melee PRE.

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Fighter

    Fighters get feats. Amping their PREs isn’t going to make fighters better, it’s going to make people splash fighters on platforms like Ranger to get the fighter PRE boosts.
    • Change Weapon Focus to provide +1 to hit and +1 stacking seeker - and carry this through Greater Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus (this will benefit fighters as they are the ones who take these feats).
    • Increase Weapon Spec / Greater Spec to 3 bonus damage each; add an additional +1 for two-handers.
    • Centered with a weapon needs to have a stricter requirement. Greater Weapon Focus maybe?
    • Keen Edge needs to require Improved Crit with that weapon type.
    • Scale these by feats, not necessarily levels as a fighter. Other classes can achieve them, but only after investing appropriately.
    • Defender PREs are currently pretty suck.
    • Tactics is too front loaded. Also, it’s actually weaker than on live currently. A fighter can take up to 4 specific tactics boosts, plus get up to 3 passive from Kensai. The max now is 3. Add either a second selectable or tie additional bonuses to the core line, or the weapon groups.

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Monk

    This is a class with great class features. Low-splashes are getting too much power.
    • Consider adding back the free monk feat at 11.
    • The No Mercy abilities on all trees are too strong. 7/14/21 or 5/10/15 maybe.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Paladin

    Paladins have a wealth of class features at the low levels and as such are popular splashes in PNP and DDO. However, they do not scale.
    • Resolve how defender stances & divine might will stack. Divine Might should provide a flat bonus, not scaled based on CHA - possibly based on Turning Level / some factor.
    • Add a slot for a restricted / faith / turn-undead-based feat in the later levels (early teens?) and possibly a second in the later levels. Extra smiting, turn-driven feats, etc.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Ranger

    Ranger is actually a very strong dip right now. What it needs is some reason to stay in it - again, built into the class.
    • Change the favored enemy progression from +1 a tier through the class-granted (not enhancement boosts, the core class-grated ablity) to a more focused ability.
    • Instead of a +1 bump at each class step, add to the first bump a weapon imbue of Lesser Bane. To the second bump (where today is a net +3) make it Bane. To the fourth bump, make it Greater Bane. On the fifth bump, if possible, add a special ability like Banishing, Disrupting, Smiting or Vorpal. A ranger would only get this on one set (since the class only promotes one FE all the way to the 5th tier).
    • Important again to stress this would just be from the CLASS granted abilities. Enhancements should add +1, +2 maybe more FEs ... but the class abilities should be strong, and drive a reason to stay in Ranger longer.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Rogue

    A solid class for assassins, but primarily because the assassin DC is pegged against rogue level. Otherwise a great class up until 13 when you have both Opportunist and Improved Evasion.
    • Open the rogue special abilities at 10/13/16/19 to allow any feat as in PNP. If you want to restrict the list, restrict it to things like Precision, Improved Crit, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Sap, Hamstring, Quickdraw
    • Acrobat - DEX to hit and damage. Instead add DEX to sneak damage again in place of the first one.
    • Acrobat - Add a second autogrant that changes any trip maneuvers to use DEX instead of STR if it is higher.
    • Acrobat - Possibly change this to a passive like Sundering Swings, using an action boost instead. If it is going to be an active clickie, make it require Cleave.
    • Assassin - re-work first two of core; let people take finesse if they want finesse, drop the DEX bits out of the core. Free proficiency is good and can stay. Replace one with a small innate fort-bypass.
    • As mentioned, the bonus damage against helpless opponents is too strong.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Sorcerer

    Here’s a class that has tons of power, but if the PREs are too strong becomes a dead class. This is very much like a fighter in that regard. There's also nothing but a pigeon-hole going on right now - Sorc's in PNP aren't just DPS, but in DDO they are simply becoming more elemental-flavored/specialized. My suggestions are more general, in the hope that we may also see Sorc Archmages, etc. at some point.
    • Give it feats ... maybe at 13 and 17 from a restricted list. That list should include things that emphasize their instinctive nature / draconic ties / whatever. Maybe the list is Combat Casting, Mobile Casting, Force of Personality, Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell ... or any Dragonmark. This gives some interesting capabilities to fleshie sorcs as well as some (lesser) benefit to WF sorcs without flat-out upping the spell pen / DC arms race. Toss in Augment Summoning if you like.
    • Restrict some of the abilities in the PRE trees based on requiring Spell Focus, etc. and/or character level.
    • Another option is to do something crazy like auto-grant eschew at 13, then make it free at 19. Nine inventory slots is pretty sweet.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    20

    Default Wizard

    In a good spot. Their main issue is not their class or PREs, but the general position of DC casting.
    • Allow access to Savant trees (but require SF evocation / conjuration to bridge).
    • Stagger DC boosts so they don’t all come at once. Consider requiring SF for the first DC boosts, GSF for the additional (like Legendary Shield Mastery).
    • Big issue w/ AM is the inability to have alternate specialties, which is very common right now on live. Consider allowing Wizards to have a second AM appearance w/ a different SF.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Well thought out and clearly expressed ideas. Not all of which I agree with, but you have done a good job explaining much of your reasoning, and that makes for a very valuable contribution. The majority of the problems that I have with what you have expressed are matters of opinion on what constitutes good scaling into later levels, which is a fairly minor point as such things can be tweaked as tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by notvoodoogroves View Post
    [*]Centered with a weapon needs to have a stricter requirement. Greater Weapon Focus maybe?
    I just wanted to point out that this is already the case, as the T4 of Weapon Group Specialization is a prerequisite, and it requires Greater Weapon Focus. And by extension 8 levels in Fighter.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 04-30-2013 at 03:33 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload