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  1. #181
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Any class can have healing amp when they take Human. Or go Helf for great self healing. Then add in the Paladin PL a few times and boom instant OP any class. I dont know what or why you want changes made to Monk to take something away.

    I dont want to take anything away from monk - casters are king of game and I would never want to nerf any melee I think actually that other melees should get some goodies from monk. Not that monk should get less.
    Yes, other melees can get heal amp from human, but monk can get more from being a monk (shintao).
    So to get the same healing amp as a monk you would need 3x pally past lifes + human enhancements - and its still less than monk can have. Also monks ALSO can have pallies past life. So whats the point in comparing what past life gives when everyone can get them?
    I told only that in class-goodies (class feats and enhancements) monk gets (and im talking about lamannia state)
    - most healing amp besides pally
    - most dodge
    - best saves
    - auto-FF
    - AC very comparable and a lot of time better than fighter or pally
    - most CC options
    - the fastest dmg
    - instantkill (now not working in EE - but will from what devs said)
    - almost free incorporeal
    - self heal
    - self raise dead
    - lots of ppr
    I just dont find it right that pally/fighter lot of time have less AC and PPR than currently monk on lammania.
    I dont find it right that monk is better trash killer than rogue.
    I dont find it right that monk has more dodge than rogue.
    I also dont find it right that he can have the same healing amp as pally.

    And I dont say - take it away from monk. No.
    I say - give pallies and fighters more ppr, give rogue more trash killing abilities, give other classes more ppr and heal amp. So they can actually compare.

    I agree that from melees monk should be CC and saves king. No doubt. Its after all a monk.
    I just dont like the fact that other melee classes come out poor compared to monk,

  2. #182
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    You can't stun red names for one, and QP stinks and never works in EE even with 60 wisdom and 20 monk levels is a pitiful 45dc. Heck that wouldn't even stick in epic hard, and only half the time on normal.
    I think you overstate the issue regarding Quivering Palm. Maybe it is just me, but I find QP to be a good tool on eHard content when used selectively.

    In my case, I use QP against low fort mobs -- especially against casters. It is especially effective against these. Melee mobs I generally stun and beat to death. I find this an acceptable use for QP since melee mobs are generally no real threat on eHard.

    I agree that QP is problematic on eElite. OTOH eElite usually requires a different approach for me (at least). The idea that QP doesn't stick on eHard or eNormal is simply not factual. Moreover, between Drow Smoke Goggles and Vorpal Strike I find that most eHard/eNormal mobs are dead before QP is off cooldown in any case.

    That it (and other moves, like Stunning Fist) do not work on red named mobs is hardly a real problem.

  3. #183
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Sorry for the rage posting, I was just ****ed to see defensive strikes on my monkarcher nerfed into oblivion.
    IMO the monk arcane archer builds are the only ones really hurt by the enhancement pass. Since they are sort of a DDO exclusive property I can't say that I'm too upset in seeing them nerfed. Still, I understand the love affair people have with them.

    Turbine just got arcane archer to the point where it was a desirable and playable build and now it looks like it will take a serious hit with the enhancement pass.

  4. #184
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKeeper1981 View Post
    My character is still on her very first life, ever since she was created back in 2009.
    Here is a before and after for my first life monk. Before is how he is right now live on Orien at L25. After is what he'll look like if the current enhancement trees go live.





    Now, I will admit that I reworked stats on Lamannia and I will do so when the update hits live. I end up with more DEX and more WIS, jump from 71 AC to 133, go from 0 PRR to 95 (I should complain, the loss of Defensive Strikes cost me 35 PRR ), I gain 40% more fortification -- all in the 3 levels that I get reaching the new level cap.

    And, that doesn't count the HP and saving throws gain that I look to get.

    Downside, I'm trading off STR. But, in running the Shadowfell quests I'm not seeing any impact from this. So, it appears to be a reasonable trade.

    FWIW I run exclusively in Wind stance on live right now and will switch over to Mountain stance with the update. The former benefits of Wind are already questionable on live now. They will be well overcome by events if this goes live as it is now.

  5. #185
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    I dont want to take anything away from monk - casters are king of game and I would never want to nerf any melee I think actually that other melees should get some goodies from monk. Not that monk should get less,
    Ok I miss understood.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Here is a before and after for my first life monk. Before is how he is right now live on Orien at L25. After is what he'll look like if the current enhancement trees go live.





    Now, I will admit that I reworked stats on Lamannia and I will do so when the update hits live. I end up with more DEX and more WIS, jump from 71 AC to 133, go from 0 PRR to 95 (I should complain, the loss of Defensive Strikes cost me 35 PRR ), I gain 40% more fortification -- all in the 3 levels that I get reaching the new level cap.

    And, that doesn't count the HP and saving throws gain that I look to get.

    Downside, I'm trading off STR. But, in running the Shadowfell quests I'm not seeing any impact from this. So, it appears to be a reasonable trade.

    FWIW I run exclusively in Wind stance on live right now and will switch over to Mountain stance with the update. The former benefits of Wind are already questionable on live now. They will be well overcome by events if this goes live as it is now.
    First, AWESOME name for your toon. ^^ Is the extra Con from Mountain Stance?

    And, yes, my own first life toon is made better by the new enhancement changes, as well. Once certain fixes are made that allow, at the very least, Vorpal Strikes to function with the core Ninja Spy enhancements that use dex for to-hit and damage, she'll be even better. I'm really looking forward to a lot of this stuff going live.

  7. #187
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Yes, most of the CON change is because of stance change both an increase to normal dropping out of wind and then a boost going to mountain. But, note the DEX and WIS which are both higher. You'd have expected DEX to drop and it did not. I was able to compensate for the loss of wind DEX and also eat the mountain penalty and still end with more DEX than before.

    And, assuming new gear bonuses with move to L28 I expect all the odd numbers to level out with some gear upgrades.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    Ok. So you cant say monk is not OP and can have it all.
    Because he can have most of it, and on Lammania he can have it all with no real sacrifices if you are at least good geared player.
    You said yourself other melees (monks also) do better than you. So dont say class is not OP when ure just not using its full potential :P.
    Youre casual player it seems - and its ok. But Ill assure you than if u were the same casual player you are on fighter or barbarian you would do a lot worse :P.
    No, I'm actually not a casual player. I play almost every day, for quite a while. As far as not using the full potential of my monk goes, that, too, is an erroneous assumption. A lot of other monk players tend to focus on getting as much DPS potential out of their monks, as possible. I took a different tactic: I wanted a monk that was more balanced and versatile for my needs. When I play, it is usually under three different conditions: with a static group made up of my husband and my best friend, with a PuG, or solo. This means that my toon's role tends to change, depending on the situation and the quest. When soloing, I need to be as self-sufficient as possible, as well as be able to control the mobs that like to surround me. When in my static three-man team, I'm the closest thing to a tank in our party, so I kind of have to fake it. In addition, I'm often sent out in front, in order to ensure that any traps not spotted by my friend only goes off on me, since I have the improved evasion and reflex saves to survive it. When in PuGs, I like to make sure I can survive long enough, if the situation goes bad, so I can raise key members to salvage the situation. I don't think my equipment is terrible, as it seems to serve me well both on EH and EE runs. My whole point is that, in order to ensure that my monk's build matches my own play style and needs, I don't have everything, as a monk player. My second point is that I seriously doubt that many other monk players, on live, are able to have everything, as well.

    But as you seem to misunderstand a lot of what I say, I also seem to have misunderstood your own position: I had thought you were advocating making a lot of monk abilities LESS effective, which is usually what people want, when they start talking about how OP monks are. This being said, I still get nervous when people begin talking about overpowered monks, as a dev's reaction usually begins and ends with taking things away from the monk class, rather than adding things to other classes to balance things out.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Yes, most of the CON change is because of stance change both an increase to normal dropping out of wind and then a boost going to mountain. But, note the DEX and WIS which are both higher. You'd have expected DEX to drop and it did not. I was able to compensate for the loss of wind DEX and also eat the mountain penalty and still end with more DEX than before.

    And, assuming new gear bonuses with move to L28 I expect all the odd numbers to level out with some gear upgrades.
    Hm... I haven't been able to change any of my stats, much, on Lamannia. I got an extra point of wisdom, by the bonus ability point I get from reaching level 28, but that's it. I still need to be in Wind Stance, just to get my dex to 33. I can push it to 35, if I have my air+air+air alchemical wraps on, but I only tend to use those with bosses, as the level draining from my Grave Wrappings make better trash-clearing main wraps.

    EDIT

    You did mention taking points away from str, in order to put points into the other stats. Was that part of how you were able to get your dex so high?
    Last edited by TheKeeper1981; 07-30-2013 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #190
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Looks like a 14 STR to start and a +4 or 13 and a +5. Then using the Dex mod for Damage from Shintao?
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  11. #191
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    Well, if he has equipment that gives more strength, he could even be making strength a base 10 or 12, with +4 tome and other gear to bring it up to 18.

    EDIT

    If the Ninja Spy core enhancements that use dex for both to-hit and damage calculations are fixed to work with Vorpal Strikes, strength can practically be a dump stat, since more dex and wisdom = more AC. This being said, I get caught in bear traps often enough that I'd probably hesitate, before decreasing strength.
    Last edited by TheKeeper1981; 07-30-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  12. #192
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    I was just thinking the same thing, well fort save changes. I run 14/14/14/8/18/10 on mine.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  13. #193
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    Even with Deft Strikes and making strength a dump stat, though, I'm still not quite sure I'd be in Earth Stance, full time. I really love that, while in Wind, I have a 24% doublestrike chance. That doublestrike goes down by a lot, when in Earth Stance. That being said, Earth Stance gives more survivability, with the extra PRR. Add to that the Sun Soul Set bonus ability that lets you absorb 25% of the incoming damage, and that's a lot of damage a monk can take. I'm definitely going to have to play around with a lot of this, to see what suits my needs, better.
    Power corrupts. Absolute power is really kinda neat.

    Main Toon: Oryara Kenna Kanja of Khyber
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  14. #194
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    When we first discussed this at my house the idea proposed by my son was to get the highest PRR possible. We took a look at what that would mean, starting with what exists now on live with the epic destinies.

    Next, you should keep in mind that my play style won't be yours. I am a simple stun and beat it to death sort of person. I seldom use finishers and have to be reminded what the combos are when in a quest where somebody wants them. That means I tend not to do a lot of button pushing -- just lock on Rocky Balboa style and hit things until they drop.

    I'm also not concerned about having to be in the highest DPS mode at all times. I normally pug or solo so that means the demand for ultimate perfection is relatively low. Instead there is a pretty high premium on being survivable -- which is how we got to the build.

    I have always favored the attack speed and double-strike efficiency of wind stance. But, the trade off is that my protection levels are relatively low. That's all well and good when I have three or four stacks of CSW potions available. I can usually run around fast enough to drink them all down and manage most encounters.

    But, by switching to earth stance and picking up combat expertise my son came up with the idea of leveraging all of that for maximum AC and PRR figuring that a few seconds longer in combat really wouldn't matter if we were staying healthy.

    The big hurt was the loss of Defensive Strikes. Before that change PRR was 130. My test run was thru BoB on eHard solo. I normally solo this a lot on eNormal. It felt to me like it was about the same, maybe a bit easier. And that was with the off-hand penalty of Defensive Strikes.

    With that gone the loss of the 35 PRR down to 95 looks to be a good stopping spot.

  15. #195
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I actually did not have Deft Strikes originally. I'm only looking at it now with the changes in Shintao.

    I do have +4 tomes from the store on all the stats except STR. I think I only have a +3 there, although I can't figure out for the life of me why I would have done that. It probably made sense at the time. I think I used upgrade tomes and maybe sent the STR to a different character.

  16. #196
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    I completely understand the need for survivability. I find myself switching over to Earth Stance, a lot, on EE, simply because they hit HARD on EE. As you, yourself, pointed out, you can get a lot of AC from taking CE and going Earth Stance. Twist in Improved CE from LD, and you get yourself more PRR, from there. Deft Strikes isn't really all that bad. We just lose all that nifty PRR that we once had, with Defensive Strikes.

    I found that, with the AP changes for the cost of iron skin, however, I actually am not able to max it out, anymore, not if I want to be able to get the two curative stances I've wanted back for a very, very long time, but had traded away for more healing amp: difficulty at the beginning, and restoring the balance. Frankly, if it weren't for the fact that I like the extras from Meditation of War, Empty Hand Mastery, and Reed in the Wind, I would have gone up the entire curative line to get Rise of the Phoenix. As it stands, I'm currently trying to keep my AP expenditure in the Shintao Tree to 41-42 AP, so I can regain my one point of Wisdom and my lost concentration from Ninja Spy and Henshin.

    All in all, though, I'm very excited about the changes: Once the devs get Vorpal Strikes working with those two Ninja Spy core enhancements, I might actually be able to do some damage worth mentioning AND have "moar AC." Though, I'm still not sure if it's a good idea for me to dump my strength stat, in order to gain those extra points in dex. There are still plenty of cases where my strength bonus is needed to accomplish a few things, like getting out of bear traps or jumping... though my jump skill IS maxed, and I have the jump clicky belt from ToD and Jidz, if I really need the extra jump.
    Power corrupts. Absolute power is really kinda neat.

    Main Toon: Oryara Kenna Kanja of Khyber
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  17. #197
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    I am still trying to figure out how to achieve both Empty handed and the 30% from Ninja. That would rock if it could happen
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    I am still trying to figure out how to achieve both Empty handed and the 30% from Ninja. That would rock if it could happen
    The easiest way would be to beg the devs to bring the AP costs of a lot of these enhancements down to 1 point each. =D The hardest way would be to employ some fancy point distributions to pull it off. Or maybe I have that backwards, with the easy thing being to find a fancy point distribution method, and getting the devs to lower enhancement costs being the hardest way?
    Power corrupts. Absolute power is really kinda neat.

    Main Toon: Oryara Kenna Kanja of Khyber
    YourDDO Page: http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/khyber/Oryara/

  19. #199
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKeeper1981 View Post
    I completely understand the need for survivability.
    Well, my son is 16 and I'm sure he's not the first person to figure out the benefits of earth stance. I just had never sat down and played with it. Before the loss of Defensive Strike I was hitting 133 AC and 130 PRR. Now it is a mere 95.

    I probably can get higher if I find gear with stacking PRR. I assume some exists, there's gear for everything else.

    I just had never paid much attention since I get by fairly well on dodge/blur/ghostly as it is. But, it was a hoot to go to eHard BoB with Ivy Wraps and to regen HP with vampirism faster than I was losing them. Epic elite is still a danger zone and takes smart play. But that's always the situation for me anyway and one of the risks of preferring melee characters.

    At least eElite is possible with smart play now. It was pretty much out of reach except as a group member before.

  20. #200
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    So why is Iron Skin 2 AP, now, rather than 1? I mean, if they kept Defensive Strikes, I can understand it, but they changed things around enough that I am thinking it's fairly unnecessary. You have to be in Earth Stance for it to actually give you anything, and while in Earth Stance, you're trading away dex and movement speed. Even with items to increase combat speed, you're still trading in a greater doublestrike percentage than if you were in Wind Stance. As I've mentioned, before, I actually prefer Wind Stance to Earth Stance, as I'm only getting something like a 6% chance at doublestrike, in comparison to the 24% I get in Wind. That's a lot of extra hits I'm giving up, in order to have the extra survivability. So why increase the cost of Iron Skin? The need to be in Earth Stance seems like an even enough trade-off, to me.
    Power corrupts. Absolute power is really kinda neat.

    Main Toon: Oryara Kenna Kanja of Khyber
    YourDDO Page: http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/khyber/Oryara/

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