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  1. #161
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    ...since when you had an issue of to-hit lately? So the argument of + to attack is rather mehh.

    That you not need high CHA anymore is probably the reason at all behind this, freeing up the short stat distribution on Paladins. I don't even argue about the point of not needing high CHA, its all fine and dandy. But the insight bonus and the fact that 2AP for increasing the duration is anything but cheap. Further the intention of the Enhancement pass was to make it more clear and straight forward. While not ideal neither the old +1 to damage is actually far more straight forward then 'Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier'.

    Last but not least it's a trap, because you not need high CHA anymore to qualify for it, but as to get a positive result you really invest into CHA. Dunno, as said, I am on the fence with it...
    paladins always needed, need, and will need charisma, its modifier is used for everything from layons, through smites, to saves, so yea its a trap, but i would call it a fat lie more or less too. im pretty sure that the reasoning of devs is based on the SPLASHES, they fear that it will be possible to create overpowered splashes, i posted the idea to fix it here at least 2 times already, wont repeat myself, there are easy ways to make sure splashes wont be overpowrered through exploiting that. as for the both trees themselves, THEY ARE LAZY.... still lazy, the biggest work that was put into the paladin prestiges was done recently and it was ICONS. sad isint it?]

    paladin is my favorite class, and ddo was always hard on that class, due to BS idea from ebberon campagin to allow it to be splashed in, so we see sorcs and other weird splashes of paladin just to exploit the best things this class has to offer, I seriously would like to see tubine FIX THAT, and then be amazed how many problems it would fix.

    .... whole defender tree is a joke, a bad joke, the kind that makes you want to slap someone over the back of the head for it, but kotc is not far behind, if devs wanted for those trees to be easy to use, well they have their success..... splashes willl LOVE those, as they will be AGAIN the only ones benefiting from them.
    "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."
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  2. #162
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That's not too bad then.

    And I hate to sound like an idiot, but you don't get the stance until you have at least 6 pally levels, right?
    I have the same question. I was hoping to splash 3 paladin levels for the +20% hit points and was fine with using a shield but no point if I need 6 Paladin levels to get the +20% (even with a shield equipped).

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    I have the same question. I was hoping to splash 3 paladin levels for the +20% hit points and was fine with using a shield but no point if I need 6 Paladin levels to get the +20% (even with a shield equipped).
    The stance is the 3rd core ability - soooo yeah, you'll need lv6

  4. #164
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    Question then.....knowing what we know now and assuming you are mostly Paladin (say 14 or 15 levels of Paladin), what is the best path to DPS. Right now I'm assuming something along the lines of 15Pal/3Ranger/2Monk (pyrene) or 15Pal/3Ranger/2Fighter (heavy armor, prr, ac).

    I've only tested briefly, so do not have any hard data on anything. Although from what I've seen my LR+20 on my Paladin might turn him into one of those centered Monk/Fighter builds.

  5. #165

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    Okay, so I spent a couple hours and re-planned out all my enhancements to include the Sacred Defense stance, getting +25 PRR and +3 saves out of the deal. I was so happy with the 80 AP spent; virtually every single point added tangible value. It was good!

    Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...

  6. #166
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    I dont see why it would. I doesn't stack with primal scream though.
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  7. #167
    Community Member Kalevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...
    Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.
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    Come play Dungeons and Dragons! In heroic play you will face the evil minions of Demons... When and if you make it to Epic levels you face even greater threats. Threats like... giant rats and wolves!

  8. #168
    2015 DDO Players Council B0ltdrag0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.
    Oh you are right. It is a rage effect.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    Oh you are right. It is a rage effect.
    Which leads back to my question: Why not make Sacred Defender stance was a Moral bonus and Divine Might reverted to a Sacred bonus? Besides the Rage spell, is there anything else that Sacred Defender as a Moral bonus would override in the same way that Divine Might overrides an Insight bonus on items? Especially since Rage doesn't work with Sacred Defender!

  10. #170
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Okay, so I spent a couple hours and re-planned out all my enhancements to include the Sacred Defense stance, getting +25 PRR and +3 saves out of the deal. I was so happy with the 80 AP spent; virtually every single point added tangible value. It was good!

    Minutes after I finished this, I got a sinking feeling. Does Sacred Defender stance prevent Adrenaline? Please say no. Please say no. Please say no...
    Quote Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n View Post
    I dont see why it would. I doesn't stack with primal scream though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalevor View Post
    Sorry pal... it does. I've been there... sad panda.
    Actually. IIRC and there hasn't been a code change, the answer is kinda both No & Yes...

    From what I remember you could be out of DoS stance, have someone pop "Primal Scream" (PS) and then turn on DoS stance and while it clears normal Heroic rages it didn't clear the Epic Primal Scream. That being said when the PS wears off your DoS will block you from getting future PS's until you get out of stance again... IIRC there is a cool-down for switching stances & DoS has limited number of charges per rest and the duration of Primal Scream is so short that it would require a lot of micro-management to work and you would only be able to keep it up for a limited amount of time. Since I was doing this testing with one buddy's FotW Barbarian for another buddy's DoS/US Paladin who hadn't unlocked FotW I couldn't test popping Adrenaline charges with FotW's Primal Scream active at the same time as DoS... I frankly didn't pursue it any further because as the party healer (and spec builder) I have to inspect their toons periodically while we play and remind them to turn on things like their stances and rages as it is and couldn't imagine them having to switch back and forth so much...

  11. #171

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    Yeah, it's fundamentally unworkable for a fury pally. For such a build, adrenaline and exalted smite are joined at the hip; the former always precedes the latter. So you'd have to go out of stance every time you wanted to throw a smite.

    Also, since adrenaline is a rage effect I imagine you can't charge up Unbridled Fury while the stance is active, which kills any hope of using furyshot. All in all I just can't use the stance. Maybe for leveling from 1 to 20 I suppose...

  12. #172
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Yeah, it's fundamentally unworkable for a fury pally. For such a build, adrenaline and exalted smite are joined at the hip; the former always precedes the latter. So you'd have to go out of stance every time you wanted to throw a smite.

    Also, since adrenaline is a rage effect I imagine you can't charge up Unbridled Fury while the stance is active, which kills any hope of using furyshot. All in all I just can't use the stance. Maybe for leveling from 1 to 20 I suppose...
    It certainly wasn't for our group as we are a casual static group that only plays weekly & we take our time on quests and can often spend hours in quests.

    If I were in a zerg group and we were to typically finish quests in ~15 minutes or are at least close to no more than 15 minutes per shrine then I would maybe try it to verify.

    IIRC the ability to be under the Primal Scream Rage at the same time as DoS gives you about 3 minutes per use. From memory you have 5 charges on the Primal Scream Rage and coincidentally 5 charges for getting into DoS stance per rest... As long as you always turn off DoS & then pop Primal Scream before turning DoS back on you should get 15 minutes of being Raged while under DoS stance (5 charges in each like they planned it).

    While you may not accrue charges under normal DoS, you may accrue Adrenaline charges while Raged under DoS due to Primal Scream being active... Don't know if it works as I don't have a Fury Paladin to test it on but if I was in a zerg group and willing to grind I may have tried it.

    EDIT: Verified still working on live; Since tonight is our weekly night I had our Unyielding-Sentinel DoS Paladin turn off his stance and the Fury Barbarian popped his Primal Scream and then the DoS Paladin went back into max stance and the Primal Scream was still there with 2:58 seconds left... Would be cool if someone who has both FotW & DoS can see if they can earn & can spend Adrenaline charges with Rage on due to Primal Scream being active....
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-14-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  13. #173
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    It certainly wasn't for our group as we are a casual static group that only plays weekly & we take our time on quests and can often spend hours in quests.

    If I were in a zerg group and we were to typically finish quests in ~15 minutes or are at least close to no more than 15 minutes per shrine then I would maybe try it to verify.

    IIRC the ability to be under the Primal Scream Rage at the same time as DoS gives you about 3 minutes per use. From memory you have 5 charges on the Primal Scream Rage and coincidentally 5 charges for getting into DoS stance per rest... As long as you always turn off DoS & then pop Primal Scream before turning DoS back on you should get 15 minutes of being Raged while under DoS stance (5 charges in each like they planned it).

    While you may not accrue charges under normal DoS, you may accrue Adrenaline charges while Raged under DoS due to Primal Scream being active... Don't know if it works as I don't have a Fury Paladin to test it on but if I was in a zerg group and willing to grind I may have tried it.

    EDIT: Verified still working on live; Since tonight is our weekly night I had our Unyielding-Sentinel DoS Paladin turn off his stance and the Fury Barbarian popped his Primal Scream and then the DoS Paladin went back into max stance and the Primal Scream was still there with 2:58 seconds left... Would be cool if someone who has both FotW & DoS can see if they can earn & can spend Adrenaline charges with Rage on due to Primal Scream being active....
    I have used the Fury ED as a DoS. However, I haven't played in a couple of months so it may have changed. But last I tried, I could earn Adrenaline but I could not spend it in the DoS stance, regardless of whether I was under the influence of Primal Scream or not. To actually use Adrenaline I had to turn off my stance. But it would recharge on vorpals when I was in DoS stance.

  14. #174
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I have used the Fury ED as a DoS. However, I haven't played in a couple of months so it may have changed. But last I tried, I could earn Adrenaline but I could not spend it in the DoS stance, regardless of whether I was under the influence of Primal Scream or not. To actually use Adrenaline I had to turn off my stance. But it would recharge on vorpals when I was in DoS stance.
    Do you remember if you also charged up Fury as well when in DoS stance? If you were charging up both you could every 5 mins or so drop stance and unload all your adrenalized smites and then pop your epic moment and then turtle up if you wanted while waiting to build back up your smites, adrenaline, & Fury. Interesting.

  15. #175
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Do you remember if you also charged up Fury as well when in DoS stance? If you were charging up both you could every 5 mins or so drop stance and unload all your adrenalized smites and then pop your epic moment and then turtle up if you wanted while waiting to build back up your smites, adrenaline, & Fury. Interesting.
    Just for the heck of it I logged on and made Fury ED active to check.

    While in stance I could charge up Fury on every Vorpal like normal. And vorpals would recharge Adrenaline 33% of the time as expected.

    You just can't spend adrenaline or fury while in stance. Well, actually you can spend it and the counter will go down, but it won't actually work while in stance.

    EDIT: BTW, I recharged adrenaline and incremented Fury both the same while under the influence of Primal Scream or not.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 08-15-2013 at 12:50 AM.

  16. #176

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    Interesting.

    Hmmm.

    Maybe it is workable after all. Super inelegant, but possibly worthwhile. Decisions, decisions.

    Btw, thanks a ton for hopping on to test it. Much appreciated.

  17. #177
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Interesting.

    Hmmm.

    Maybe it is workable after all. Super inelegant, but possibly worthwhile. Decisions, decisions.

    Btw, thanks a ton for hopping on to test it. Much appreciated.
    Np, but keep in mind that this was tested on Live, so I have no idea yet how things will interact with the new update and the enhancement pass. For all I know the Devs could consider the fact that Fury and Adrenaline charges still functioned under the DoS stance to be unintended and undesirable and have "fixed" it.

    Or just in tinkering with the code to change the stance up to function with and without shields in different ways could in and of itself change the behavior.

    So, the behavior I described was how I played my DoS while earning xp in the FoTW up until currently. It was indeed "inelegant" but it was functional. Required quite a lot of micromanaging and switching stance and such, but the dps trade-off made it worth it.

    But I have no idea how it will work after the update. I can't even really speculate.

  18. #178
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Np, but keep in mind that this was tested on Live, so I have no idea yet how things will interact with the new update and the enhancement pass. For all I know the Devs could consider the fact that Fury and Adrenaline charges still functioned under the DoS stance to be unintended and undesirable and have "fixed" it.

    Or just in tinkering with the code to change the stance up to function with and without shields in different ways could in and of itself change the behavior.

    So, the behavior I described was how I played my DoS while earning xp in the FoTW up until currently. It was indeed "inelegant" but it was functional. Required quite a lot of micromanaging and switching stance and such, but the dps trade-off made it worth it.

    But I have no idea how it will work after the update. I can't even really speculate.
    I checked on live and with the new SD stance & you can still get the Primal Scream buff as long as you turn off SD stance prior to PS... The other good change is that there are no longer charges on going into SD stance like there was for DoS stance so you could turn it on/off as many times as you want however the cool-down is now longer (now 60 seconds for SD vs 20 seconds before for DoS IIRC). If you are in stance you can turn it off, get the scream, and turn it right back on however you can only do that once every 60 seconds. That is pretty cool as we have at least 2 Fury DPS in our party who currently alternate Primal Screams so we have at least 10 per rest if they coordinate.

    I personally can't test whether you can still accumulate charges or not but if you can you can toggle on/off stance to use them every 60 seconds if you want. That being said you will lose HPs but some healing is fairly cheap/free (auras/bursts/etc).

  19. #179
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    Default thanks so much

    all I can say is thanks for ruining my pallies.

    my 2 hander lost a bunch of hp because he now needs a shield to have lots of health. STUPID!

    my s&b is all f''ed up. did you know that every time you switch weapons you lose the bonus to hp and con that you gain from a shield.
    oh and it stacks. meaning each time you switch weapons it lowers your current hp. eventually causing death. I was killing myself for hours the other day in the harbor just to show off my new awesome powers. btw its a lvl 25 with 1100 hp. I can kill myself in about 30 sec from full health. by switching weapons fast.

    I sent a ticket. they tell me its wai.

    this is by far the stupidest fuking thing ive ever seen in a game.

  20. #180
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    Default thanks so much

    all I can say is thanks for ruining my pallies.

    my 2 hander lost a bunch of hp because he now needs a shield to have lots of health. STUPID!

    my s&b is all f''ed up. did you know that every time you switch weapons you lose the bonus to hp and con that you gain from a shield.
    oh and it stacks. meaning each time you switch weapons it lowers your current hp. eventually causing death. I was killing myself for hours the other day in the harbor just to show off my new awesome powers. btw its a lvl 25 with 1100 hp. I can kill myself in about 30 sec from full health. by switching weapons fast.

    I sent a ticket. they tell me its wai.

    this is by far the stupidest fuking thing ive ever seen in a game.

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