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  1. #141
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    From another thread:



    So it looks like it's WAI.

    I did warn about this. So Divine Might has now been nerfed if Paladins want to increase STR via gear, pretty much the only option for pure Pallies besides feats and the STR enhancements and EDs. This is on top of Divine Might actually nerfing damage for any Paladin that build for Divine Might IV.

    And remember, this is the only general DPS boost for paladins in either tree. All other DPS is tied into fighting Evil mobs and the additional increases via Undead or Evil Outsiders.

    The Devs need to go back and redesign both Paladin trees. If they can't do this before the Update, they need to do it in conjuction with the Warpriest tree, since as things stand now the Clerics can only eclipse paladins at melee when the Warpriest tree is added. Do I expect the Devs to do it? Of course not, since they've clearly marked a line in the sand that what Paladins had a few months ago was as powerful as pure Paladins will get after the expansion.
    Have said it awhile ago but someone at turbine hates paladins and wants the class dead dead dead. It's only good for splashes now, it's bloody ludicrous to nerf such an important pally feature, just like it was asinine to take 2 pre and shove them in the same tree but not merge them, just so it plays nice for multiclassing.

    Wish the ones making these changes had a clue.
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  2. #142
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    I'm spitballing here, but what would the problem be if the Sacred Defender stance was a Moral bonus and Divine Might reverted to a Sacred bonus? Besides the Rage spell, is there anything else that Sacred Defender as a Moral bonus would override in the same way that Divine Might overrides an Insight bonus on items?
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-10-2013 at 04:25 PM.

  3. #143
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    first ill comment on the important thing:

    new icons look nice, great work!!!!!!

    now the not so important (apparently) things:

    both paladin trees still are the WORST prestiges in the new system, i would sugest for the person makeing those, to look at other classes and their prestiges.....

    no other class (didint see such, with maybe exception of fighter defender) is so choked on the points and at same time forced to take stuff from multiple trees at once, stuff it mostly optional, and its a choice between usefull and less usefull for the player.

    ill repeat myself with ideas i posted here before but MAYBE THIS TIME SOMEONE AT TURBINE WILL READ THEM..............

    BOTH trees should get OWN LoH number boost enchancement, merged with number of turns, kotc would have extra enchancement that makes turns more powerfull and at same time adds additional charges, defender would get 3 loh and 3 turns. takeing it from one tree blocks the other, so cant be taken from both.

    BOTH prestige base enchancements should grant extra damage against evil, with kotc getting also extra damage to undead or outsiders.

    BOTH trees should have OWN smite enchancements, with exalted smite on the kotc focusing on raw damage and dos smite, a smite that focuses on makeing enemy weaker to damage, for paladin and whole group (either only physical damage, OR good, lawful and light daamge types), there is much more possible effects it could make, with even something similar to light monks healing curse.

    Dos tree stance enchancement merged down to 3 enchancements, with 3 tiers each, but set bit higher in tree, to make space for own heal amp, dos themed heal amp could give prr per tier (TANK TREE CANT BE LEFT Without HEAL AMP!!!!!!). that enchancement with guard effect should be OPTIONAL and not merged down with something like prr, not everyone wants to have permanent guard effect on all the time!!!!!!

    the +50% to armor and shield enchancements should be merged with the ones giveing ac and dex bonus to justify its cost, in its place shield mastery and shield bash dependant enchancements, giveing extra double strike and shield bash chance.

    both paladin and fighter defenders could get enchancements that require defensive fighting (YES!!! i mean that nearly forgotten autogrant feat stance) to be active and would allow them to move at walk speed while shield blocking, and maybe make main hand weapon attacks while blocking at reduced speed, it would make shield block based feats and effects actualy be more usefull, such effect could shorten animation chain to the first 2 swings in animation chain, and apply hate gen bonus, a REAL defensive stance

    divine might still on the kotc side but with charisma to damage and not to str, with requirement based on pnp, so 13 str and HAVEING POWER ATTACK FEAT. also with splash protection so only pure full level paladins would get full bonus, and takeing 2 levels on sorcerer would not allow to get full bonus, idea is pretty simple (divine might would make check, how many paladin levels are there in overall level value, and lower the % of cha bonus used based on that) if needed it could count the number of lore feats, they would at least have some use. same thing should be added to the paladin feat adding charisma mod to saves.

    for as long as i can remember, it was asked by players for dos prestige to grant tower shield proficiency, now when there are prestiges that give proficiencies in other classes it would be good time to do that? if its not too much trouble, you probably could make new icon?? hmmmmmm?

    im tired, dissapopinted, and nearly depressed by lammania, ty for giveing me access for buying rabid cat in bag.
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 08-11-2013 at 05:12 AM.
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  4. #144
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    I'd prefer CHA to damage instead of CHA to STR for Divine Might (it has nothing to do with the fact that I am using paladin levels in DEX based build, not at all). And it will make sense to put more paladin levels in PDK (so you will get like .. twice charisma score to damage xD)

  5. #145
    Community Member Henshaw135's Avatar
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    I have tried searching, and read the thread, but can't find anything about Magic Circle Against Evil (except from the very first few posts about missing it).

    Is it removed completely, without anything to replace it with? I can't really understand the reasoning behind it if it's gone... I know I could just use a Protection From Evil clicky (I do have more than enough of them), but it's single target, instead of AOE (or I could cast it, except when fighting Beholders). Also a clicky is not that good idea in the middle of a fight if the spell gets dispelled...

    While Paladins have very high saves, they won't always protect from everything while leveling.


    I do know there are a lot bigger problems, but just thought of bringing it up as there wasn't any comment about it, especially from the developers.


    I also agree that Undead and Evil Outsiders shouldn't be a choice between them, they should both be included for KotC by default.
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  6. #146
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    The defender capstone is only useful if you die. (And even then only if you die by less than -50 HP) I die maybe once a month and frequently that is either to instant death, brain sucked by a mindflayer, or to massive damage where -50 won't matter anyways.
    Regarding the Capstone

    I think a capstone that deal with your death is already from design a bad choice. The same thing actually is true for the Rogue capstone by the way. I mean really even Death Pact for the Cleric is just a waste. I so often have seen Clerics that cast this spell on them in the hope it would save their butt, just to instantly die twice. Please devs, run your numbers, I am pretty certain you can check how often this happen.

    A deity should intervene before it is to late and grant superior protection when it is needed most.

    So I totally agree, a capstone should should keep you alive in the first place. Something like if you drop below 50 HP to receive a cure and protection. Also I am not sure if like Stalwart pact which provide DR on trigger, an additional staking 5-10 DR would be to much to ask for, maybe instead of the 2% fortification? Maybe make the stacking DR depend on paladin levels, but in current epic content and a new cap of 28 a DR of 5-10 is nothing compared to the damage output of bosses.

    Regarding the Enhancements

    Dunno, but I am as well a bit disappointed about the Enhancements. I am, as others, also a bit on the fence with the Divine Might line.

    Previously : DM I = +2 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute
    Now : DM I = Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier

    Assuming a first live THF character with base CHA of 16, +6 item = 22 CHA = +6 modifier. This would translate to + 3 points to STR. Even a +2 tome wouldn't change this as a +7 modifier would be downgraded. Further assuming the character has no other +3 insight sources and a base STR of 18, +6 item and +2 tome = 26 STR = +8 modifier the extra 3 points would only rise it to +10. Which is the same as the +2 sacred bonus of the previous DM I, except it only last 30 seconds now.

    This change indeed with DM III, which then last 2:00, but the damage doesn't increase any further.

    So the same as before with base CHA of 16 +2 tome to qualify for the old DM III we get 24 CHA = +7 modifier. For the new system this translate to the same +3 points so nothing changed there with a +2 bonus. However the old DM III gave +6 sacred bonus which is a huge difference, despite it only lasted 1:00.

    I mean due to the fact that you have to take extra turning to qualify for tier II enhancements you never run out of turns anyway so I don't see the improvement for the 2:00. Especially it is not 2AP worth a rank! I see actually zero reasons to take more then the first rank as it just don't scale.

    I understand that the Devs try to remove a lot of stacking sources as it got out of their hands, but this change really hurt. Maybe someone can come up with a spreadsheet and running all the numbers, but I think it is sad that the extra damage source of the CHA all went gone. Maybe it was to make Paladins more easy to create but why everything need to be downgraded to please the easy button?

    Also the Vigor of Life line looks a bit too high and should be moved entirely down a complete tier. If you need place role either the boost on the right of the KotC tree into one icon, or do this with Extra Remove Curse/Extra Turning or ... dunno.
    Last edited by SisAmethyst; 08-12-2013 at 07:16 AM.
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  7. #147
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    A side question, some dude was trying to convince me that paladins can now block magic somehow ? He didn't really tell me how ... or from where (a new feat or something ? couldn't see anything in the enhancements and I have friggin 6 levels of paladin in there).

    Any ideas what he was talking about ?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Regarding the Enhancements

    Dunno, but I am as well a bit disappointed about the Enhancements. I am, as others, also a bit on the fence with the Divine Might line.

    Previously : DM I = +2 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute
    Now : DM I = Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier

    Assuming a first live THF character with base CHA of 16, +6 item = 22 CHA = +6 modifier. This would translate to + 3 points to STR. Even a +2 tome wouldn't change this as a +7 modifier would be downgraded. Further assuming the character has no other +3 insight sources and a base STR of 18, +6 item and +2 tome = 26 STR = +8 modifier the extra 3 points would only rise it to +10. Which is the same as the +2 sacred bonus of the previous DM I, except it only last 30 seconds now.

    This change indeed with DM III, which then last 2:00, but the damage doesn't increase any further.

    So the same as before with base CHA of 16 +2 tome to qualify for the old DM III we get 24 CHA = +7 modifier. For the new system this translate to the same +3 points so nothing changed there with a +2 bonus. However the old DM III gave +6 sacred bonus which is a huge difference, despite it only lasted 1:00.

    I mean due to the fact that you have to take extra turning to qualify for tier II enhancements you never run out of turns anyway so I don't see the improvement for the 2:00. Especially it is not 2AP worth a rank! I see actually zero reasons to take more then the first rank as it just don't scale.

    I understand that the Devs try to remove a lot of stacking sources as it got out of their hands, but this change really hurt. Maybe someone can come up with a spreadsheet and running all the numbers, but I think it is sad that the extra damage source of the CHA all went gone. Maybe it was to make Paladins more easy to create but why everything need to be downgraded to please the easy button?
    Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system

    I love the change. 42 Cha= +16 mod to STR. So this equals the Current DM IV: + 8 damage, which also means I gain + 8 to attack.

    My pally will have a 72 STR and a 42 CHA as a KoTC with roughly 1000 hps @lvl 28.

    The only recent change to DM that I do not like is making it an INSIGHT Bonus: Not allowing it to stack with INSIGHT Items. IMHO change the Bonus to a COMPETENCE so that I can use my + Insight Items.

    The reason why it was made insight bonus was due to the SACRED DEFENDER line STR bonus being changed to a SACRED bonus so that it could stack with DM. So by making the SACRED DEFENDER line stack with DM overly hurt a pure KotC by changing the bonus to insight. I don't know to many KotC that splash heavily into the Defender line.

    So that being said. Paladin's, FvS's and Clerics who take DM will not need a + INSIGHT ITEM.(Doesn't make sense to me.)
    Last edited by Cashiry; 08-12-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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  9. #149
    Community Member benicius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashiry View Post
    Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system

    I love the change. 42 Cha= +16 mod to STR. So this equals the Current DM IV: + 8 damage, which also means I gain + 8 to attack.

    My pally will have a 72 STR and a 42 CHA as a KoTC with roughly 1000 hps @lvl 28.

    I currently have DM IV. That was achieved at heroic levels; by level 20 not 28. Enhancements are a part of levels 1-20, I do not see where anything that you could achieve thru epic levels/destinies should matter.

    Changing DM to a non-stackable insight CHA mod bonus to STR causes my Paladin to lose +4 to dmg. For clarity, here are my current stats with gear: STR 34(+12) CHA 30(+10). I have items that give a +2 insight bonus to STR and CHA.

    With the changes to DM, I lose +4 to dmg. Even with a stackable bonus, I would lose +3 dmg. As you point out, a 42 CHA would get me back to where I am now. I would need to come up with 12 extra CHA from somewhere just to equal what I currently have. That is a pretty beefy upgrade to CHA.

    I see this as a fairly major hit to DM. It's not like Paladins are over-powered damage-dealing machines. As a pure Paladin, what do I have as a unique class skill to increase my damage output? DM, Smites and Divine Sac. There goes one of them.
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  10. #150

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    What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

    Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

    I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

    Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.

  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlehawke View Post
    Why not two Monk instead of Rogue? Evasion and TWO Feats?
    For UMD and haste boost, mostly, plus maybe a little open lock and/or search.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

    Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

    I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

    Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.
    Personally, it stinks. As you stated, it's got a short cooldown but uses Turn Undead. Even with Endless Turning, you'd burn their the clicky too quickly. I'd rather it be a longer cooldown that used nothing, like all the other melee classes have.

    Second, that extra that you forgot was the "chance" of destroying Undead and Evil Outsiders with less than 1k HP on an unsuccessful will save. Again, personally, the capstone should be making all paladin weapons have Disruption and Evil Outsider Banishing. Instead, it was placed on a clicky that requires 3 different circumstances to happen before destroying trash mobs.
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-12-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  13. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Second, that extra that you forgot was the "chance" of destroying Undead and Evil Outsiders with less than 1k HP on an unsuccessful will save. Again, personally, the capstone should be making all paladin weapons have Disruption and Evil Outsider Banishing. Instead, it was placed on a clicky that requires 3 different circumstances to happen before destroying trash mobs.
    Oh, right. So the secondary benefit is only for leveling.

    Essentially, the moment you hit level 20 it's 5[W] and nothing else.

    On the plus side, if you're going for immunity to level drain anyway, holy retribution is crazy cheap at 3 AP to essentially be a secondary smiting line for raid bosses. Right? Right? Bueller...

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Oh, right. So the secondary benefit is only for leveling.

    Essentially, the moment you hit level 20 it's 5[W] and nothing else.

    On the plus side, if you're going for immunity to level drain anyway, holy retribution is crazy cheap at 3 AP to essentially be a secondary smiting line for raid bosses. Right? Right? Bueller...
    Correct. It's technically a tertiary smite line: Smite Evil, Exalted Smite and Holy Retribution.

    I'd like for the Devs to clear up if the Exalt Smite benefits also work with Holy Retribution. From the nearest I could tell, it does.

  15. #155
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashiry View Post
    Your gaining + to attack and + to damage with the Change to Divine Might. ALSO: there is no base CHA requirement for DM like in the current system
    ...since when you had an issue of to-hit lately? So the argument of + to attack is rather mehh.

    That you not need high CHA anymore is probably the reason at all behind this, freeing up the short stat distribution on Paladins. I don't even argue about the point of not needing high CHA, its all fine and dandy. But the insight bonus and the fact that 2AP for increasing the duration is anything but cheap. Further the intention of the Enhancement pass was to make it more clear and straight forward. While not ideal neither the old +1 to damage is actually far more straight forward then 'Insight bonus to STR equal to CHA modifier'.

    Last but not least it's a trap, because you not need high CHA anymore to qualify for it, but as to get a positive result you really invest into CHA. Dunno, as said, I am on the fence with it...
    Last edited by SisAmethyst; 08-12-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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  16. #156

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    Quick question on Sacred Defense:

    The tier 1 "Improved Sacred Defense" line in the Sacred Defender tree; do you need 6 pally levels to unlock the Sacred Defense stance core ability in order for this tier 1 line to do anything?

    And a followup, does the stance give benefit if you don't have a shield equipped?

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Quick question on Sacred Defense:

    The tier 1 "Improved Sacred Defense" line in the Sacred Defender tree; do you need 6 pally levels to unlock the Sacred Defense stance core ability in order for this tier 1 line to do anything?

    And a followup, does the stance give benefit if you don't have a shield equipped?
    Yes you need the stance for that to do anything. You can use the first 3 enhancements without a shield but the top tier ones (+to STR/CON and HP) require a shield.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    What do we think of Holy Retribution, the tier 5 KotC melee attack? It does 5[W] damage, plus something else I forget at the moment. Cooldown is low; I think it's 6 seconds, but maybe 12. (For comparison, tempest ranger tier 5 melee attacks have 60 and 120 second cooldowns. Which is good in that it frees up AP by letting me wholly ignore them without a second thought.)

    Here's the problem: Each Holy Retribution attack uses a turn undead. Bwah?! So you get a dozen or so per shrine, less if you wanna keep DM running. It's a smite all over again.

    I could twist in endless turning from US to guarantee being able to keep DM running 24/7 while using holy retribution, but geez, is there any value there for a tier 5 that requires a twist? Do people like this? I haven't formed an opinion yet, so would love some feedback.

    Note that it costs 3 AP total and has no prereqs.
    Holy Retribution does 5w damage and now works on ALL evil creatures. If they have less than 1k HP they get do make a will save to negate being destroyed and take 100 good damage instead. Also, adds a 10 second, -6 to all Ability Score debuff to creatures that survive the Death effect in addition to the 100 Good damage .

    I can't find reference to the use of Turn Undeads to power it, but it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't mind some confirmation on that as I'm in the process os trying to make out a new Paladin build.

  19. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgoodson3 View Post
    I can't find reference to the use of Turn Undeads to power it, but it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't mind some confirmation on that as I'm in the process os trying to make out a new Paladin build.
    I saw absolutely no indication that it requires turns either, so I was thrilled to add it as a clicky attack; finally, a tier 5 melee attack worth using!

    When I used the LR+20 on my pally on lama (this was 2-3 days ago, so the most recent build) and took it and then dragged it to my hotbar, it had the number 11 on the hotbar icon. "Hmmm, that's weird" I thought. Then I thought "Hey look, Divine Might has an 11 on it too. You don't think...?" Then I clicked on Holy Retribution, and both its hotbar and Divine Might's hotbar ticked down to 10.

    It does indeed use turns, confirmed. *Sad Panda* This went from finally being a tier 5 melee attack I could use to the same as all the others: worthless. Saves some AP that way at least.

    EDIT: Also, note that the special vorpal roll (which has a DC likely around 40) only procs if the mob has <1000 hp. Meaning it essentially won't proc in epics, not even epic normal.

  20. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Yes you need the stance for that to do anything. You can use the first 3 enhancements without a shield but the top tier ones (+to STR/CON and HP) require a shield.
    That's not too bad then.

    And I hate to sound like an idiot, but you don't get the stance until you have at least 6 pally levels, right?

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