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  1. #21
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    So anyone else notice that Sword and Board is being nerfed in this pass? I guess it's just too uber? DOS has bonus PRR for equipping a shield (this is in addition to the PRR you get for being in stance). The new version not only requires wearing a shield to get the stance, but eliminates the bonus for merely using a shield.

    In other words when they decided to make shield use mandatory they figured they could eliminate the incentive bonus...

    BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.

    Net effect is the weakest playstyle in the game is massively nerfed for no explicable reason... They lose PRR and when they put the shield away and try to contribute more than being a cockroach who's the last one to die in a wipe, they do less DPS than before, and have less HP's while they do it.

    No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.

  2. #22
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    So anyone else notice that Sword and Board is being nerfed in this pass? I guess it's just too uber? DOS has bonus PRR for equipping a shield (this is in addition to the PRR you get for being in stance). The new version not only requires wearing a shield to get the stance, but eliminates the bonus for merely using a shield.

    In other words when they decided to make shield use mandatory they figured they could eliminate the incentive bonus...

    BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.

    Net effect is the weakest playstyle in the game is massively nerfed for no explicable reason... They lose PRR and when they put the shield away and try to contribute more than being a cockroach who's the last one to die in a wipe, they do less DPS than before, and have less HP's while they do it.

    No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.

    This is what boggles me. Tank paladins have amazing survivability and plenty of self-sufficiency. But their damage is just a couple steps above spellsinger and healbot clerics. Sure, this is common in any game with a sword & board type class, since you trade damage for high defenses (and vice versa). But what they've done with DoS is just nerfing it into the ground; sometimes you have to get out of your turtle shell and go on the offensive.

    Personally, I think they should make tanking more useful in this game. It has situational uses, like in Fall of Truth, and many instances where it is beneficial to the party, like tanking red names in epic quests, allowing the rest of the party to attack freely (also making the healer's job easier).

    I'm just saying, if they make it so DoS MUST be in constant shield-mode, give them some amazing defensive abilities and aggro management, or give them some phenomenal clickies/abilities to ensure the build is not completely left in the dust. Taking away the incentive to turtle up is just downright ridiculous.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    BTW shield use requirement for Defender stance, means that all those Pali's using a THF weapon as a "DPS mode" no longer can be in stance with their DPS option.
    Dos stance dosen't require a shield IIRC.

  4. #24
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    Nothing in Pally enha is changed/fixed
    Sad.

  5. #25
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterwhale View Post
    Nothing in Pally enha is changed/fixed
    Sad.
    Even the reported bug: exalted smite not giving bonus smites, is still there. Only real change for palis is the reduced tier 5 cost (30 spent in tree) which allows you to spread your points around more. Since I have only tested a monkadin I was unable to say if I could spend all my AP with a pure as I seemed to get everything I wanted while still having a lot of points for my monk enhancements
    Khyber - Officer in The Stormreach Thieves Guild
    Steeles (TR 1 Paladin 20 / 8 Epic - TWF) - Steeley (Monkadin - Pal 18/Monk 2/ 8 Epic - Unarmed) - Steeltruhart (TR1 Paladin 17 - S&B Bastardsword) - Steelforged (Pal 20 / 8 Epic - SWF) - Steeltruhurt (TR1 - Pal 8 / Ftr 2 - THF) Steelsouls (Clr 17 / Pal 3 /8 Epic)

  6. #26
    Community Member blackdae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post

    No point in rolling such a character, they are already no fun to play on Live, take away the THF DPS mode and a chunk of PRR and they are even less fun, less fun than no fun LOL.
    You got the point.. I spent a lot of time building my DoS.. I quit playing her after I capped my EDs, 'cause since MotU tanking became kinda useless..
    Now this.. The mixed KotC and HoD simply sucks.. They took away from DoS any hope for a little DPS..

    I'll TR her in some kind of TWF and, since the very nice idea of busting EDs' exp, once done I'll prob never use her again, since I've had the great idea to max them all..

    Sad panda..

  7. #27

  8. #28
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    Default Pally Enhancements

    First, the new launcher is still annoying. Many like me who are always red=boxed when we log in the first time are used to quitting, causing the launcher to reset and then logging in normally. At least under Windows 8, quitting closes the launcher such that you get game error 205 and can no longer log in. I figured out that if you set the launcher option to stay open, you can click on it after logging out the first time and everything works normally after that. Still, please fix it before it goes live.

    Two likely bugs in the pally tree. First, as noted by others, while exalted smites are now doing exalted smite damage, they are still not awarding additional smites. Second, the loss of 15 PRR suggests that the first tier of superior defensive stance still does not work properly.

    I still like the new enhancements. I can take all I want from the DoS and KotC trees and still have some left over. I built my pally as both melee (1300+ hp) and backup cleric (nearly 1000 sp plus true res, mass heal, etc) and virtually all those abilities are improved with the new system.

  9. #29
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    Now that I was able to copy my live character over and see the actual changes I'm even less impressed than the first time when I was just doing theoretical comparisons based on descriptions.

    No matter what I am losing 15 PRR when going S&B.

    Defender stance grants 10 + 15 with enhancements for 25 total.

    On live Tier 3 grants 20 + 20 with a shield or 40 total.

    I either have to give up around 30 AC and a couple points in saves to do slightly less damage than I do now or I have to give up a lot of damage to keep roughly the same AC/saves as now.

    Divine might not stacking with the Strength bonus from defender stance is a huge blow to my damage potential.

    So overall a net loss in both survivability and damage.

  10. #30
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    Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the things I'm about to list.

    First, while the Devs mentioned that the AP cost has dropped in all the trees, the Paladin tree appears to be completely untouched in the reduction of AP cost.

    Divine Might not stacking with the Defender stance is a bust for actual Paladins, while the Divine Might enhancement continues to reward splash Paladins. So Divine Might in the new enhancements is better for splashed paladins while the pure Paladin continues to lose out on what on Live is a major bonus for pure Paladins.

    The Defender stance appears to continue to be very unfriendly to THF paladins, especially but not exclusive to Fury THF KOTC builds. Not only does it appear very unfriendly, it's like 80% of the Defender tree so a THF KOTC has little reason to invest in the tree besides the Lay On Hands ability.

    Additionally, it appears that KOTC continue to be pigeonholed into the Undead or Evil Outsider DPS with no crossover. There shouldn't be a limitation to just one or the other since the DPS for other mobs isn't great for Paladins unless they enter the Fury ED. What is even more sad is that it appears that pure Clerics that choose the Divine Disciple get all the Core abilities for that Prestige!? Shouldn't KOTC get the same benefits, especially since being a Pure KOTC Paladin instead of 2 level Rogue or Monk splash offers much more to the class then the capstone?

  11. #31
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    Default Defensive Stance

    I did not notice this when I first posted, but quitting apparently takes you out of defensive stance each time you log on. You currently stay in defensive stance when logging in and out. Please keep it that way.

    Also, the icon used for defensive stance looks too much like the icon for divine might. I suggest you keep the current star-like icon to indicate defensive stance.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    First, while the Devs mentioned that the AP cost has dropped in all the trees, the Paladin tree appears to be completely untouched in the reduction of AP cost.
    No costs in any trees for any class were altered.

  13. #33
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    I've taken a look at the new Paladin enhancements, and here is my general take primarily from the point of view of a Paladin tank. I'd like to preface my response as someone who has played Paladin tanks for a long time, and has leveled up and optimized various builds over the years.

    First, a Paladin tank needs a mix of both offensive and defensive abilities. There are times when you want to go all DPS, all defense, or sometimes a mix of the two. A good Paladin tank recognizes the situation and adapts accordingly. Unfortunately the defender tree is so defensive focused that I feel it could be a trap to someone not aware of this. I built out the enhancements on my Paladin and figured out that the best way to build him was to split my APs evenly between the Knight and Defender trees (41 in Knight and 39 in Defender). I actually think I came up with a good blend of the two, however even though there's a nice graphical interface, the problem is that you still have to navigate the landmine of enhancements that really aren't that great or are too expensive, compared to others you would be much better off with. Some more specific thoughts...

    Problem - The Paladin capstone requires 40APs in the Knight tree
    Any pure Paladin will want this enhancement. However the only way a Defender can get the capstone is to have more points in the Knight tree than they do Defender. Either that or give up on the capstone, which to me is like the developers pushing Defenders to multi-class as there is no longer a reason to go to 20 levels of Paladin (and a lot of people that play Paladins WANT to play a pure Paladin). That doesn't make any sense to me.
    Suggestion: It would be better if the capstone requirement was to have 30 APS in the Knight tree so that a Defender could put more than half of their points into the Defender tree.

    Problem - +6 strength enhancement vs Divine Might
    I understand the desire to clean up what bonuses stack with each other. Now that the +6 strength enhancement doesn't stack with Divine Might...it is no longer worth taking the +6 strength enhancement. For the same APs, you can get more strength by taking Divine Might, which is only a tier 2 enhancement. Without maxing out my charisma, my Paladin had a +11 charisma modifier on Lamania. With Divine Might on, this is a +11 to strength, so why waste APs on the +6 Defender strength enhancement?
    Suggestion: Increase the strength bonus of the enhancement in the defender tree so that a Defender will want to take the strength bonus in their own tree instead of Divine Might in the Knight tree. Perhaps make the bonus equal to your charisma modifier so it is of equal strength to divine might (it is a higher tier enhancement). While you're at it, boost the Con enhancement the same way.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Problem - The Paladin capstone requires 40APs in the Knight tree
    Any pure Paladin will want this enhancement. However the only way a Defender can get the capstone is to have more points in the Knight tree than they do Defender. Either that or give up on the capstone, which to me is like the developers pushing Defenders to multi-class as there is no longer a reason to go to 20 levels of Paladin (and a lot of people that play Paladins WANT to play a pure Paladin). That doesn't make any sense to me.
    Suggestion: It would be better if the capstone requirement was to have 30 APS in the Knight tree so that a Defender could put more than half of their points into the Defender tree.
    The main problem with that idea is that 30 APs would allow you to get multiple capstones. Of course they could lock you into one capstone just like the do with tier 5 now. Otherwise I like it. They really just need to scrap the defender capstone and come up with a new idea. If they really want something defense rather than damage orientated maybe a significant permanent passive boost to PRR/resists/elemental absorption. (No more short term clicky abilities please)

    Problem - +6 strength enhancement vs Divine Might
    I understand the desire to clean up what bonuses stack with each other. Now that the +6 strength enhancement doesn't stack with Divine Might...it is no longer worth taking the +6 strength enhancement. For the same APs, you can get more strength by taking Divine Might, which is only a tier 2 enhancement. Without maxing out my charisma, my Paladin had a +11 charisma modifier on Lamania. With Divine Might on, this is a +11 to strength, so why waste APs on the +6 Defender strength enhancement?
    Suggestion: Increase the strength bonus of the enhancement in the defender tree so that a Defender will want to take the strength bonus in their own tree instead of Divine Might in the Knight tree. Perhaps make the bonus equal to your charisma modifier so it is of equal strength to divine might (it is a higher tier enhancement). While you're at it, boost the Con enhancement the same way.
    There definitely needs to be some sort of change and I very much like this idea.

  15. #35
    Community Member dopey69's Avatar
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    Default still working

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No costs in any trees for any class were altered.
    on how to get it in the store

  16. #36
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    The main problem with that idea is that 30 APs would allow you to get multiple capstones. Of course they could lock you into one capstone just like the do with tier 5 now. Otherwise I like it. They really just need to scrap the defender capstone and come up with a new idea.
    Perhaps a better idea would be to use the same capstone for Defender as Knight and what is on live.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  17. #37
    Community Member whiteline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    Paladin Enhancements are available on Lamannia this weekend.

    Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!

    We would also appreciate it if you would fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey and the Paladin Survey!
    would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack
    Squeak's Army

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteline View Post
    would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack
    It's part of the core abilities (number 4 I believe) in the defender tree. It now adds the spell (along with resurrection and true resurrection) to your spell list.

    Of course they've made it so paladin can use scrolls for all those things even without UMD so I don't see much point to it anymore.

  19. #39
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteline View Post
    would like to know if the Paladin will get back raise the dead enhancement on the next build that's the only thing I found that was missing in the pack
    It now comes buffed in the core section of the defender tree.

    Redemption: The following spells are added to the Paladin spell list:

    Level 2: Raise Dead
    Level 3: Resurrection
    Level 4: True Resurrection
    Khyber - Officer in The Stormreach Thieves Guild
    Steeles (TR 1 Paladin 20 / 8 Epic - TWF) - Steeley (Monkadin - Pal 18/Monk 2/ 8 Epic - Unarmed) - Steeltruhart (TR1 Paladin 17 - S&B Bastardsword) - Steelforged (Pal 20 / 8 Epic - SWF) - Steeltruhurt (TR1 - Pal 8 / Ftr 2 - THF) Steelsouls (Clr 17 / Pal 3 /8 Epic)

  20. #40
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    For a class that already has a bad, and somewhat undeserved reputation of having little to no DPS you sure made it a lot worse. Your screwing anyone who has a current DoS and wants to keep one in the enhancement pass. KotC is better than what is currently live, except we shouldn't have to choose between undead or EO. Combine them, there is very little EO and undead at endgame currently so whichever way you go has little benefit.

    Please change stance back to how it works on live. There is no reason for these changes, they only turn an underpowered class into a joke. I have always loved playing paladins but this will kill them for me. It's bad enough that EE has made many builds and some classes no longer viable, the last thing we need is for you to narrow that scope down even more.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

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