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  1. #1
    Lamannia Coordinator SqueakofDoom's Avatar
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    Default The Official Paladin Enhancements Discussion Thread!

    Paladin Enhancements are currently available on Lamannia.

    Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!
    Last edited by SqueakofDoom; 07-10-2013 at 09:11 AM.

  2. #2

    Default

    My goal with this comparison was to see how close to my current build I would be able to get with the new enhancements. I make no claims for my current build to be in any way the best and the test build is just seeing how close I can get to me current build. My current build is what works for me when I solo and during guild runs.

    Level 25 Human Paladin, Defender of Siberys, Unyielding Sentinel. TR (1 Paladin past life) Sword and board. High healing amp (Vampirism from Nightmare is usually enough to keep me at full heath against anything except raid bosses on EH).

    Old Enhancements:

    Code:
    Paladin:
    
    Armor Class Boost I (+5 AC, 20 seconds)
    Capstone: Weapons of Good (all weapons treated as good, 1d6 Holy damage vs evil, 2d6 light damage vs undead/evil outsiders)
    Divine Might III (+6 Damage for 1 minute, Sacred Bonus)
    Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Exalted Smite II (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and damage)
    Extra Smite Evil IV (+4 Uses of Smite Evil)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat for 1 minute)
    Toughness II (20 HP)
    Extra Lay on Hands I (+1 Uses of lay on Hands)
    Charisma I
    
    Aura: 
    Courage of Good I (+2 saves vs fear)
    Focus of Good I (+3 concentration)
    Bulwark of Good III (+3 AC)
    Resistance of Good III (+3 Saves)
    
    Defender of Siberys III
    +6 Strength (Sacred Bonus)
    +6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus)
    +20% Hit Points
    + 3 Saves (Sacred Bonus)
    +20 Physical Resistance
    +75% Threat when using a Shield
    +40% AC from armor and shields
    -10% Movement speed penalty
    +2 Turn Undead  Uses
    +1 Lay on Hands
    +3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Tower Shields and Heavy Armor
    Magic Circle against Evil
    Mass Shield of Faith
    Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
    
    Human:
    
    Human Adaptability I (Strength)
    Improved Recovery III (Healing Amp 30%)
    Toughness II (20 HP)
    
    Other:
    
    Unyielding Sovereignty (Fully heal, remove all status effects 10 min cool down)
    Follower of the Sovereign Host (+1 hit with long swords, grant longsword proficiency)
    New Enhancements:

    Code:
    Paladin:
    
    Hunter of the Dead I (+1 hit and 1d6 damage vs undead, free)
    Divine Might II (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 1 minute (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements, tier 3 is the same but duration is boosted to 2 minutes)
    Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Exalted Smite II (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and damage, +2 Uses per rest)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
    Extra Lay on Hands II (+2 Uses of lay on Hands)
    Charisma I
    +3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
    +3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Tower Shields and Heavy Armor
    +10% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life)
    +15% Shield AC
    
    Aura:
    +3 AC
    +2 Saving throws
    
    Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
    +6 Strength (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
    +6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
    +20% Hit Points
    +3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
    +25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
    +125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
    +30% AC Armor and Shields
    -10% Movement speed penalty
    
    +55 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +55 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +6% Fortification  (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    
    Human:
    
    Human Adaptability I (Strength)
    Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
    Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)
    Net Gain:

    +5 PPR
    +50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
    +55 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +15 Hit Points (+55 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
    +6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +1 Turn Undead
    +1 minute to Divine Might Duration
    +5% Shield AC

    Net Loss:

    -Improved Recovery III (10% Healing Amp)
    -Capstone:
    --All weapons treated as good aligned
    --1d6 holy damage vs evil, 1d6 light damage versus undead/evil outsiders (only loss of 1d6 versus one type by choosing hunter of dead/knight of chalice I for free)
    -10% AC from Armor
    -4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
    -2 Smite Evil Uses
    -Magic Circle against Evil
    -Mass Shield of Faith
    -Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
    -Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)
    Aura:
    -1 Saves
    -2 saves vs fear
    -3 concentration

    Conclusion:
    Trying to do straight up recreation of my toon does not look very viable to me. I lose quite a bit for only minor gains. I'm going to have to do a lot of experimenting to come up with a new alternative.

  3. #3

    Default

    Attempt 2:

    This time I'm going to try to work in the Defender capstone. Since Divine Might does not stack, I am going to skip the defender stance strength enhancements and plan on keeping divine might up most of the time.

    Code:
    Paladin:
    
    Hunter of the Dead I (+1 hit and 1d6 damage vs undead, free)
    Courage of heaven I (1d6 versus evil)
    Divine Might III (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 2 minutes (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements)
    Divine Sacrifice I (5d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Exalted Smite III (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and +2 damage, +3 Uses per rest)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
    +3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
    +3 Max Dex bonus to AC Armor
    +1 Max Dex bonus with Tower Shields
    +20% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life II)
    +5% Shield AC
    +Redemption (Adds raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection as spells)
    +Eternal Defender (+2 Charisma, automatic 250 heal if knocked unconscious but not killed, unconscious extended to -50 HP, costs 2 turn undead)
    Aura:
    +5 AC
    +3 Saving throws
    
    Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
    +6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
    +20% Hit Points
    +3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
    +25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
    +125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
    +50% AC Armor and Shields
    -10% Movement speed penalty
    
    +53 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +53 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +12% Fortification  (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    
    Human:
    
    Human Adaptability I (Strength)
    Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
    Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)

    Net Gain:

    +Access to raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection
    +1 Critical Damage multiplier on smites
    +5 PPR
    +10% AC from Armor
    +15% AC from shields
    +50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
    +53 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +13 Hit Points (+53 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
    +12% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +1 Turn Undead
    +1 minute to Divine Might Duration
    +1 Charisma
    + Automatic 250 heal if knocked unconscious but not killed
    +Unconscious extended to -50 HP

    Aura:
    +2 AC

    Net Loss:

    -Capstone:
    --All weapons treated as good aligned
    --1d6 damage versus undead/evil outsiders (only loss of 1d6 versus one type by choosing hunter of dead/knight of chalice I for free)
    -4d6 light damage from lower tier divine sacrifice
    -6 Strength (Made up for as long as I keep divine might going all the time)
    -2 Lay on hands uses
    -4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
    -1 Smite Evil Uses
    -2 Max Dex bonus when using Tower Shields (I don't currently so not a big loss)
    -Magic Circle against Evil
    -Mass Shield of Faith
    -Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)
    Aura: (Neither of these seem like a huge loss)
    -2 saves vs fear
    -3 concentration

    Conclusion:
    It looks like I have to give up a lot of damage for a moderate increase in AC/survivability with this build. Considering I had very little trouble surviving before I don't see this as an improvement.

  4. #4

    Default

    Attempt 3:

    Here I tried to get the Knight of the Chalice capstone while still grabbing as much defender stuff as I could.

    Code:
    Paladin:
    
    Hunter of the Dead III (+2 hit and 2d6 damage vs undead, save or die on vorpal, 500 light damage on save/immune)
    Divine Might III (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 2 minutes (+10 for me), Sacred Bonus does not stack with +6 from stance enhancements)
    Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Exalted Smite IV (smite evil gains +2 critical threat and damage, +4 Uses per rest)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
    +3 Turn Undead Uses (Needed to unlock higher tiers for Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice)
    +3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Heavy Armor
    +Remove Disease applies a lesser restoration effect (I needed one more AP to get capstone and had already taken everything useful)
    +30% Healing Amp (Vigor of Life III)
    +Immunity to energy drain (Sealed life)
    +2d6 damage vs evil (Courage of heaven)
    +Capstone:
          All weapons treated as good aligned
          1d6 holy damage vs evil, 2d6 light damage versus evil outsiders
          2 Charisma
    
    Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
    +6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus even though it says Competence Bonus)
    +20% Hit Points
    +3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
    +25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
    +125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure if they stack but should otherwise the first 2 tiers of enhancements are redundant)
    +30% AC Armor
    +15% AC Shields
    -10% Movement speed penalty
    
    +34 Hit Points (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +34 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +6% Fortification  (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    
    Human:
    
    Human Adaptability I (Strength)
    Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
    Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)
    Net Gain:

    +2d6 Damage vs evil
    +10% Healing Amp
    +1 to critical threat and damage on smites
    +5 PPR
    +50% Threat (Not sure on this depends on how the extra enhancements stack with the base stance)
    +34 Positive Spell Power (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +6% Fortification (From Holy Bastion core ability)
    +1 Turn Undead
    +1 minute to Divine Might Duration
    +Disruption like effect versus undead
    +Remove Disease applies a lesser restoration effect
    +Immunity to energy drain
    +1 Charisma

    Net Loss:

    -2 Lay on hands
    -6 Strength while in defender stance
    -6 Hit Points (+34 From Holy Bastion core ability -40 From loss of toughness enhancements)
    -3 Max dex bonus from tower shields
    -10% AC from Armor
    -25% Shield AC
    -4 Net Damage from Divine Might Changes (Due to stacking issues)
    -Magic Circle against Evil
    -Mass Shield of Faith
    -Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
    -Unyielding Sovereignty (Follower of the Sovereign Host is selectable as a bonus feat at level 1 but no higher tiers exist yet)

    Aura:
    -3 AC
    -3 Saves
    -2 saves vs fear
    -3 concentration

    Conclusion:
    There is not much wiggle room in the KOTC tree. I took everything that looked at all interesting to me and still had to spend 1 more AP to get the capstone. At least this version gives me a bit more damage than I have on live. (as long as I am fighting evil or undead and keep divine might running) I'll have to try it out for a while to see if the increased healing amp makes up for the loss of lay on hands and AC as far as my survivability is concerned. I think this may be the best of the three builds so far but I am not particularly happy with any of them. I'll wait and see if any changes are made that make things look better.

  5. #5
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    Default Pally Enhancements

    I like the new enhancements, but a few comments:

    1. I seem to have lost 10 PRR with the new system. I think the additional 10 PRR you get from the base SD stance either is not being applied properly or the enhancement which restores movement rate has the effect of negating the entire base SD stance.

    2. Exalted smite is not providing extra smites and is only proccing as "normal" smites.

    3. What exactly is the new 8 second smite period supposed to do? I thought it could effectively provide endless smiting, but those who have tested it say it only applies a small 8 second debuff to mobs. If so, why can't pallys have endless smiting? Just increase both duration and cooldown to 8 seconds so we can have barbs saying "dang, what happened to you guys!"

    Just my two cents.

  6. #6

    Default Another paladin review

    Knight of the chalice:

    Core:

    Slayer of Evil 1: +1 to-hit, +1d6 damage, +2 to saves vs. either undead or evil outsiders.

    Courage of Heaven: Your aura of courage grants an additional +2 sacred bonus to saves against fear and now grants +2 sacred bonus to saves against enchantment. You also gain +1d6 damage to attacks against all evil enemies.

    Slayer of Evil 2: You choice in slayer of evil 1 gets improved to +2, +2d6, +3

    Improved Courage of heaven: Saves improved by an additional +2. Damage bonus increased to 2d6

    Slayer of evil 3: Your choice in slayer of evil 1 gets improved to +4, +4d6, +4

    Champion of Good: +2 Cha, courage of heaven improved by an additional +2, weapons considered good aligned, and +1d6 holy damage against evil, and an additional +2d6 light damage against evil outsiders and undead.

    Considering the level requirements, Slayer of Evil could be both evil outsiders and undead and you would not make Paladins too powerful.

    Tier 1:

    Extra turning (3 ranks) (1AP): +1/2/3 turn attempts

    Either add the Tier 2 ability 'Improved Turning' to this or add this to each tier of the core Courage of Heaven/capstone. These are slightly useful as the undead hunter Pre now longer gives additional turns.

    Divine Light (3 ranks)(1 AP): Your Turn Undead ability now also deals +6d6/+12d6/+18d6 light damage to nearby undead.

    Extra remove disease (3 ranks): +2/4/6 uses of remove disease

    Exalted Smite (2 AP): +1 Smite evil, and +1 crit multiplier on smite evil

    Decent idea to roll up the extra smite with exalted smite. Bugged by not granting extra smites, crits work though, no mention of cooldown reduction

    Attack Boost (3 ranks)(2 AP): +4/6/8 to hit for 20 seconds


    Tier 2:

    Improved Turning (requires extra turning)(3 ranks) (1AP): +1/2/3 levels when turning, and +2/4/6 HD turned.

    Pointless ability add it to the tier 1 extra turning enhancement with the 1AP cost still, or remove it. I have never seen a paladin turn with any success and after level 4, why would you even try?

    Divine Might (3 ranks)(2 AP): You gain your charisma modifier to strength as a sacred bonus for 30/60/120 seconds (20 seconds CD)

    I think I lose out with this one, but I like the duration increase

    Rally (3 ranks): Channel divinity remove fear from target. Target gets +0/4/4 morale to will saves vs. fear and +0/0/2 to attack for 60 seconds.

    I have a spell to do this, in fact it makes a player immune to fear and not much else at that spell level to slot in so why waste AP?

    Exalted Smite (Requires Exalted Smite rank 1)(2 AP): +1 Smite evil and +1 crit range and multiplier on smites

    Damage boost (Requires Attack Boost)(3 ranks)(2 AP): +10/20/30% damage for 20 seconds.

    Damage boost is nice but pre req of attack boost is not. Since I have several boosts, where is my extra action boosts choice? I guess I found what could replace Improved Turning. Plus both are expensive.


    Tier 3:

    Improved Restoration (3 ranks): Your Paladin Remove Disease ability also now applies a lesser restoration\restoration\greater restoration effect on the target

    Flavourful, but I probably do not have enough AP, wasn't this included in the hunter of the dead PRE for free, now it costs?

    Divine Sacrifice (3 ranks)(2 AP): +1 Crit multiplier on attack, and 5d6/7d6/9d6 light damage, but costs 5 HP and 1 SP.

    would like it as the tiers to give: Activated attack gives +1[W]/+1 Crit multi/+1 crit range and 5d6/7d6/9d6, but costs 5 HP and 1 SP.

    Vigor of life (2 AP): +10% healing amp

    Yay!.. Wait.... ? Was part of a PRE for free now it costs me AP! D'oh!

    Exalted Smite (requires exalted smite rank 2)(2 AP): +1 Smite evil, gives +2 multiplier and +1 threat on smites

    Str or Cha (2 AP): +1 Str or Cha


    Tier 4:

    Censure Demons (2 AP): Vorpals stun chaotic evil outsiders for 3 seconds

    An exceedingly small enemy population with a low chance to proc with a very short duration = stupid waste of AP

    Passion (requires divine sacrifice)(3 ranks): Divine Sacrifice gains: On damage: Gain 1/3/6 temp SP if used on EO/Undead

    So essentially SP free divine sacrifice, but since the SP will probably not stack, it could not power anything else. I never run out of SP so this is a waste of a whole Tier 4 (!) enhancement slot

    Vigor of life (requires Vigor of life rank 1)(2 AP): +10% Healing Amp

    Exalted Smite: +1 Smite evil use. +2 Crit multiplier and threat range on smites

    Since these are limited number of uses per 'day' and the Epic destiny ability does NOT reduce the recharge time, I would love to see maybe a +1/2/3 [w] damage bonus added or something like "this adds +2/+4/+6 effective paladin levels to your smite evil ability" this would make it like a spellcasters extra caster level increases to spells.

    Str or Cha (requires Str or Cha rank 1)(2 AP): +1 Str or Cha


    Tier 5:

    Censure Outsiders (2 AP): Censure Demons now also works on evil or chaotic outsiders

    Still a small enemy population, make them both 1AP and then... maybe but not at Tier 5 (!)

    Vigor of Life (requires vigor of life rank 2)(2 AP): +10% Healing Amp

    Holy Retribution (3 ranks)(2 AP): CD 6 seconds. Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful strike against the target that deals +1W/+2W/+3W damage. On damage: Undead/EO with less than 1k hp have a 50%/75%/100% chance of having to make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha modifier) or be destroyed. On a successful save it deals 100 holy damage.

    I have not actually been able to test this yet, but as written, is this the Worst Tier 5 ability out there? A little extra damage, to a subset of weak mobs for a chance to force them to make a not so difficult save. I would hope at the very least the last sentence should say "On targets above 1000HP, or who make a successful save, it deals 100 holy damage."

    Though I would like to see it lose either the HP limit or the % chance. I would also like for each tier to up the DC from 1/2 paladin level --> 3/4 paladin level --> paladin level with the damage being 100/150/200


    Sealed Life (2 AP): Immunity to energy drain
    General comments:

    Would like to see a devotion line come back in either tree.

    Whatever happened to maybe having AP costs go down in higher tiers like the old 4/2/2 ones. Some of the lacklustre ones it could be beneficial to have a 2/1/1 cost progression.

    Saving this post often to avoid forum log outs losing everything
    Last edited by SteelesTrueheart; 05-03-2013 at 11:22 AM.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Default

    I am very unhappy that you mixed up the 'Hunter of the Dead' with 'The Knight of Chalice'. Previously one could put points in Extra Lay on Hands to qualify for higher levels of Exalted Smite, now I have to waste points in Divine Light or Extra Turning to get to the higher tiers, as a core functionality of each Paladin (Lay on Hands) is only available to the Defender? Sure, it's easy to mix points in both trees, but points in one tree don't qualify for the next tier in the other.

    Paladin is one of those example where I would have wished for a core class tree that provide us the generic paladin skills like smiting and lay on hands, while the specific traits, like Censure Demon or Greater Sacred Defense are in the dedicated Pre Trees.

    If you mixed those two because you think you haven't enough stuff to fill a whole separate tree for 'Hunter of the Dead' and 'The Knight of Chalice' why you didn't provided some skill that boost/modify the power of the holy weapon? Or in general something like a clicky that add temporary the silver trait to a weapon as like the artificer spell does, which you could provide as a tier 4 ability. Then move the tier 3 and 4 smiting lines down to tier 1 and 2 as a multi select. To avoid increasing this too early either add a minimum charisma modifier on it or do it like you previously did in the Exalted Angel tree, where you needed 'Healing Power' and 'Radiant Power' to unlock 'Endless Faith'. By the way, any way to increase light/holy/cure (spell) damage?

    Also 'Vigor of Life' is Tier 3-4-5? I mean if it would have been at least 1-3-5, but previously it was part of the Pre. This is very disappointing!

    Or move the Extra Lay on Hand in the 'Hunter of the Dead' tree and split the multi-select in the 'Sacred Defender' tree (e.g. Durable Defense) in a separate line as like it is now on live.

    I mean just cluttering the tree with some places where we can distribute our points doesn't mean to provide us choices. Previously we could choose to distribute in things like: Courage o. G., Bulwark o. G., Focus o. G., Resistance o. G., Charisma, Divine Sacrifice, Extra LoH, Energy of the Templar, Devotion, Advanced Belief etc. to qualify for higher tiers of Exalted Smite and Divine Might. We could choose what we think is a good option. Some of those are even totally gone or moved to higher level tiers. Now we have to waste AP in useless things. You stripped the already difficult class from its options. I mean hat was exactly what a lot of people feared when changing to the new tree model in regards of multiclass, for the Paladin you seem to have managed to destroy this even for the pure class...

    ...sorry but I am just totally underwhelmed by this!
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  8. #8

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    Knight of the Chalice: New vs Old

    Winner: New, by a slight margin.

    In the new system access is earlier (you can have tier 1 after your very first action point at level 1!), requires less AP and other Core abilities grant even more damage. You receive almost the same benefits with far less cost. The only downside? You no longer receive extra smite evil charges per tier which lowers your burst damage potential. I think this is nicely outweighed by the extra constant damage from Courage of Heaven.

    Hunter of the Dead: New vs Old

    Winner: Old, by leaps and bounds

    In the old system HotD had many more benefits for far less cost.
    It required you to have spent ~6 'useless' AP on pre-requisites and 8 AP on the PrE, so let's say 14 AP worth, worse case scenario.
    But you received the following:
    +2/+4/+6 additional turning attempts (now separate and costs 3 AP for a maximum of 3 extra turns)
    +2/+4/+6 additional remove disease attempts (now separate and costs 3 AP)
    +2/+4/+6 saves vs undead (this is sort of now within the core so going to call it even)
    +1/+2/+3 to your level when turning (this was on top of the 'useless' AP you had to spend on improved turning already – improved turning in the new system also gives HD turned benefits, so I will be generous and call this even)
    +10/20/30% healing amp (this now costs 6 AP)
    -10/20/30% negative energy damage (this is not available any more)
    Your weapons were considered ghost touch (this is not available any more)
    Lesser/Normal/Greater Restorations powered by Remove disease (now separate and costs 3?AP)
    Sealed spirit (now separate and costs 2AP)
    Passive undead disruption effect with DC30 on all vorpals. This is now an active ability that also works on evil outsiders for the low low price of 6AP, though now it is holy damage instead of light damage.

    Old cost 14 AP vs New cost 23AP with several abilities not now in the new system. Ghost touch most notably.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Hunter of the Dead was a nice levelling option and provided some nice solo options as in later game you don't have that much of undeads (Abbot and new Raid aside). While having quite some demons in the later game and an overall more power focused line gave Knight of the Chalice something. While you demonstrated that KotC now has early access, I do indeed miss the burst damage potential and some other things along the line. I mean, granted, for a new players that is still low level the situation may look different, but at level 20+ I don't care much if I got early access to KotC.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't expect that we can completely recreate our character or blindly follow old guides like Junt's build. But if one like KrelarVersion2 demonstrated would like to stay as close as possible to what we have, the difference is huge and not always beneficial.

    It really looks more like someone rolled a dice to randomly distribute powers of previously three Pre into two trees. As like Krelar said "... It looks like I have to give up a lot of damage for a moderate increase in AC/survivability with this build. Considering I had very little trouble surviving before I don't see this as an improvement...". Sure there may be always some filler points to distribute, and sure we may loose there and gain on an other end, but currently I really have hard times with the current trees.

    Anyway, will try to see how I can get the best out of the new tree...
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  10. #10
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelesTrueheart View Post
    Your weapons were considered ghost touch (this is not available any more)
    Just checked, if you choose "Hunter of the Dead" at "Slayer of Evil I" you still get with "Slayer of Evil II", "Hunter of the Dead II" which provide you with:
    - +2 to attack undead
    - 2d6 additional against undead
    - +3 versus spells against effects produced by undead
    - all attacks are considered ghost touch
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    Paladin Enhancements are available on Lamannia this week.

    Please share your thoughts on the Paladin Enhancement Trees!
    As someone who would want play KOTC tree, I am seeing a net loss of LOH charges (these are one of the bread and butter abilities of the paladin).

    On live, Defender line already gets extra LOH charges per each tier as well as the enhancement LOH.

    As it stands for new, only seeing +3 in the enhancement tree of Defender.

    Please make each five paladin levels automatically add extra charge of LOH - 1,5,10,15,and 20.

    Thank you

  12. #12
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?

    Overall all these enhancement shenanigans have turned me off DDO really badly, will just tr and not spend a single stinking penny in this game anymore till I can digest this farce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?
    Because every class enhancement has to fall within a prestige tree. There's no longer generic class enhancements. So if you want extra lay on hands just spend the required points in the DoS tree. That's the kind of thing every single character will do.
    Ceruleus ~ Nnomad ~ Nnia ~ Nnurgh ~ Cynnical
    Cannith

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    I was disgusted with the changes before the forum changes so haven't actually logged in lam to test any of this but having played kotc and hotd as mains, hotd being the more recent I am wondering what the reason was in taking a core class ability like loh and sticking it in dos tree?

    Overall all these enhancement shenanigans have turned me off DDO really badly, will just tr and not spend a single stinking penny in this game anymore till I can digest this farce.
    If you look at the two trees, KOTC is more offensive and Defender is more defensive. Since Lay On Hands is a generic Paladin ability, the logical point would be to stick it into the Defender tree. I'll add that I agree with Blacksoft that more Lay On Hands should be included via Paladin levels or at least in the Core Abilities of both trees.

    The Lay On Hands are low enough in the tree that any pure Paladin can grab them. Splashed Paladins might have to decide if they want to give up one tree for more Lay On Hands.

    To be honest, I'm more concerned that a pure KOTC Paladin who wants to use the Fury ED will be saddled with a bunch of Defender stance abilities that clash with the ED. Currently on live, the stance doesn't work with Fury; but when the new stuff was on Lamannia they worked together... So I'm not sure if the Devs decided to allow Fury to work with the Defender stance or if that was one of the many broken things with the enhancements that will eventually be fixed. I suspect it will be fixed so the two can't work.

  15. #15
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    If you look at the two trees, KOTC is more offensive and Defender is more defensive. Since Lay On Hands is a generic Paladin ability, the logical point would be to stick it into the Defender tree. I'll add that I agree with Blacksoft that more Lay On Hands should be included via Paladin levels or at least in the Core Abilities of both trees.

    The Lay On Hands are low enough in the tree that any pure Paladin can grab them. Splashed Paladins might have to decide if they want to give up one tree for more Lay On Hands.

    To be honest, I'm more concerned that a pure KOTC Paladin who wants to use the Fury ED will be saddled with a bunch of Defender stance abilities that clash with the ED. Currently on live, the stance doesn't work with Fury; but when the new stuff was on Lamannia they worked together... So I'm not sure if the Devs decided to allow Fury to work with the Defender stance or if that was one of the many broken things with the enhancements that will eventually be fixed. I suspect it will be fixed so the two can't work.
    I have been playing dps paladins since 2009, the issues isn't dos vs kotc the issues is they stuck kotc and hotd together and jammed in generic enhancements nilly willy. I also play pure pallies btw. No the issues is with pallies you already have hard choices to make all around and these changes make the choices even harder.

    See Steeles post he seems to get the general gist of what bothers me. All in all they seem to be trying to turn this into something closer to 4e.

    Dunno maybe I am getting to old to like such changes or just don't like having my toons guts ripped out. Maybe it's because I have stopped playing my fave game ddo since the forum"upgrade" and I am enjoying neverwinter but know it won't last and I am worried they are making ddo closer to to what neverwinter is.

    I really really loved playing my pally.....
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 05-20-2013 at 07:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  16. #16
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    Now that I can finally log in and post again, I'll offer some thoughts I jotted down a couple weeks ago.


    General

    I started out by trying to replicate my live build: a Defender of Siberys with smites, DS and capstone. This proved to be impossible. I was able to get fairly close by sacrificing all aura-boosting enhancements (which is a bit painful) and all of the AC-related enhancements (which are mostly useless anyway, I suppose). Overall the Sacred Defender PrE is very expensive, has too many dependencies which do not exist on live, sacrifices too much damage potential by focusing heavily on it, and the capstone connected to it is pure garbage.


    Sacred Defender

    Stance Improvements: These are very expensive and annoyingly arranged. Ideally these would all be a-la-carte and not part of a chain (so I could dump +threat if I wanted to). If there is not going to be any real choice involved in this (i.e., if all dependencies are not going to be broken), then just make it a single 3-rank enhancement costing (hopefully less than) 9 AP per rank.

    Aura Improvements: Shatter the chain here. These dependencies do not exist on live.

    Saves Boost/Defense Boost: Break this dependency. Paladins don't need saves boosts, and the few that would want the defensive boost surely don't want to be taxed for it.

    Defensive Smiting: Given how limited smites are, this is way, way too weak for 2/4/6 AP. It would need to provide fast healing or PRR or dodge or something else for a short while that would mitigate more than 1/3 of a single hit. I also do not understand why this needed to have 3 ranks to begin with.

    Reinforced Armor/Shield: these should have a different pricing/ranking scheme. 2 ranks that provide 25/50% to armor for 2/4 AP would be more reasonable. Reinforced Shield should provide 25/50% to armor for 1/2 AP (or 50/100% to armor for 2/4 AP), due to the fact that base shield AC is so much lower than base armor AC: aim for a more consistent AP to nominal AC gain ratio between these.

    Sacred Shield Mastery: The AC bonus on this is a joke. 5% is not even +1 AC for most epic tower shields.

    Divine Righteousness: If these temp HP were to scale with positive spellpower and healing amp, this might become useful.

    Redemption: I have little use for these spells. This is not something I want to spend AP on to reach further Core Abilities (luckily, the abilities beyond this one are not worth taking either).

    Glorious Stand: given that this consumes turn attempts, the cooldown can surely be reduced to something more reasonable.

    This tree needs something else in tier 5 and a capstone that does not require me to die to get use from it. Currently nothing really sells going primary in this tree. Something to replace Unyielding Sovereignty which seems to be gone would help a bit.


    Knight of the Chalice

    Slayer of Evil: The way this is set up encourages respeccing between content, which is poor design. Please re-do this as a stance with a 10?-minute cooldown. Switching your focus back and forth between undead and outsiders will not be feasible inside a quest (in the few places where that would even be helpful), but switching between quests/packs will be less cheesy.

    Attack Boost: Nobody wants this.

    Damage Boost: Everybody without Legendary Dreadnought wants this. They don't want to waste 6 AP on Attack Boost to get it though. Please break the dependency. You could additionally just eliminate Attack Boost and put something else in its place.

    Extra Turning: There could be more ranks of this. Hunter of the Dead on live gives a lot of additional turn undeads beyond what is available from live Extra Turning.

    Divine Sacrifice: It would be cool if the light damage from this ability scaled with light spellpower. It would help open up different gearing possibilities for paladins vs other melees.

    Divine Light: This would also need to scale with light spellpower, and with levels as well. It's useful at low levels, but 18d6 scaled by nothing quickly becomes trivial.

    Passion: if this worked on any (evil) enemy, it might be worth taking. Limiting it to outsider/undead only makes it too narrow to be worth AP.

    Censure Demons/Outsiders: Again, a very narrow (and unpredictable) use for AP spent.

    Holy Retribution: Another narrow use, and this one is further limited by turn undead consumption, for a whopping 6 AP.

    Given the amount of Evil Outsider and Undead specific abilities here, I am surprised there is no Cold Iron or Silver weapons buff in here, which can be found in other trees not thematically committed to destroying either.

    Overall this tree has some nice things in it, but its focus is still somewhat too narrow. An ability to forswear a crusade against a non-evil group of enemies (functioning similar to a temporary favored enemy, whereby smites and any other anti-evil-only bonuses work against the group regardless of their actual alignment, and anti-outsider/undead abilities could work against any evil enemy thusly afflicted) would be nice. Bringing in an element of the Silver Flame could fit this purpose, as they are fully committed to purging any obstacle in their way: doing evil in the name of the greater good is perfectly reasonable to them.

  17. #17
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    Well, I like I can just pick a bunch of random skills to shove into things. This new s ystem sounds like it totally guts my actual abilitiy to do just that. I really like my flexibility, and this really tweaks me. I am not sure I would have bought into the game had I realized it was so much hamstrung compared to what it is now....

  18. #18
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    My thoughts on Knight of the Chalice:

    Core Abilities:

    Slayer of Evil: It would be ok if it was BOTH Undead and Evil Outsiders. As it is right now, it is fairly weak.

    Courage of Heaven/Slayer of Evil 2/Improved Courage of Heaven: These are ok with me.

    Slayer of Evil 3: Reduce the extra die to 3d6, keep everything else the same.

    Champion of Good: Increase the damage against evil from 1d6 to 3d6, and keep everything else the same.

    That gives 5d6 against Evil, with an extra 5d6 against EOs and Undead. Currently it is 3d6 against Evil, and an extra 6d6 against EOs OR Undead (with the other only being an extra 2d6).

    Tier 1:

    Divine Light: Useful in low levels, but absolutely worthless at medium to high levels. If that is the intention, then ok, but otherwise some SERIOUS buffing. MUCH More dice if you intend for players to take this ability past level 10.

    Extra Turning/Extra Remove Disease: Ok

    Attack Boost: Could be worse I guess. Please don't make it a pre-req for Damage Boost though.

    Exalted Smite: Good. It doesn't say anything about reducing the cooldown though, is this intended? Please say no.

    Tier 2:

    Improved Turning: No comment

    Rally: Way overpriced as essentially a single-target Remove Fear spell. Instead, have it be a SLA of Remove Fear that is always centered on yourself that also gives +2/4/6 to attack and +0/0/10 temp hitpoints to all friendlies around you and it might be useful.

    Exalted Smite: Good.

    Damage Boost: Remove Attack Boost as a pre-req. Otherwise good.

    Tier 3:

    Improved Restoration: Nifty. I can see it being useful in some situations. Overall I like it.

    Divine Sacrifice: Fairly good, though I think the light dice could stand to be scaled up a bit. Maybe 5d6/9d6/13d6?

    Vigor of Life/Exalted Smite: Awesome

    Stat Boost: Ok

    Tier 4:

    Censure Demons: Horrible. A 3-second stun on a Vorpal is very unpredictable, and it only works in a tiny amount of content. Very poor for a tier 4 ability. Instead, change the name to Censure Outsiders and have it work on any outsider that is Evil or Chaotic. Additionally, have it proc on 19-20.

    Passion: Pretty bad. Keep it at 3 ranks, but have them scale like this "Divine Sacrifice gains the following: On Damage, gain 2/4/6 SP if used against an Evil target and an additional 2/4/6 SP if used against an Evil Outsider or Undead".

    Vigor of Life/Exalted Smite: Still Awesome.

    Tier 5:

    Censure Outsider: Change it to Censure Evil (it will now work on any target of evil alignment).

    Sealed Life: I like this.

    Holy Retribution: Replace it with the following: "Melee attack that deals +1W/2W/3W damage. On critical, force Evil Outsider or Undead target with under 1K HP to make a Will save of 10/15/20 + Paladin Level + CHA Mod or die. Targets that save or have more than 1K HP take 100 Light Damage. Cooldown 6s." Note that it does not Channel Divinity.

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    Just want to talk about Divine Might.

    If you dual wield then a +8 damage bonus for the offhand is the equivalent of +32 Strength (a +16 strength bonus halved). With the new Divine Might unless a TWF Paladin has Charisma 42 then it represents a big reduction and also creates another undesirable effect of removing the Paladin's much vaunted versatility as everyone rushes for a twohander.

    Then you have to think about stacking with Charisma attuned weapons. You are doubling the Charisma bonus and if the weapon is two handed multiplying by 1.5 twice looks really abusable. Considering the impact on saving throws and Lay on Hands healing you really don't want to invite Paladins with 60+ Charisma running round the place with a two handed weapon that works off CHA rather than STR.

    A Paladin is a divine warrior that channels holy forces rather than winning by brute force. Divine damage and Light damage combined with Faith is the core concept of the class. Paladin is the new Barbarian now with Divine Might adding STR, I really disapprove of the class losing part of it's divine aspect. It also smacks rather heavily of catering to people who only value Paladin as a splash class - since there is no benefit of developing the enhancement line aside from a tiny increase in duration.

    Whoever balanced the current enhancements did a great job, Divine Might gives a really nice return of damage for a modest amount of Charisma. The only thing that needed to be improved was the duration, which should have been worked off class level in the same way as spells.

    If the intention is to improve Paladins rather than ruin them you could maybe come to a compromise and allow Divine Might IV to uncap if the Charisma bonus is higher than +8. That might be workable and would preserve theme but I would still be cautious over balance issues.

    Try to end on a positive note. I had an idea for Divine Sacrifice - very simple really - to make it a Mode rather than an activated ability so you could just toggle it on/off. I also want to say how much I like the rest of the other proposed class enhancements, the Pale Master ones in particular have really got me excited (bit of a sluyt for PM atm)

  20. #20
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Looking at Sacred Defender, it looks fairly weak to me.

    The last three Core enhancements don't look very appealing (I can't really see using any of them very often, if ever).

    As for the actual tree itself, many of the later enhancements look extremely weak.

    Resistance Aura: While nice for the rest of the party, it doesn't do much of the Paladin with all of the saves boosts Paladins get.
    Instinctive Defense: It's nice, but why is it in tier 4? Seems much weaker than the identical Stalwart Defender 1 that is in tier 2.
    Spellshield Aura: The link to Resistance Aura weakens it a bit.
    Defensive Smiting: WORST tier 5 enhancement I believe I've seen. Gaining some temp hp when using an ability (where all of the other bonuses to it are in the other tree) is terrible. At most, this should be tier 1 or 2, though I would prefer it if it were removed and replaced with something actually good.

    Also, only 2 tier 5 enhancements? No +W attacks or anything at all?

    Redemption: raising spells aren't something that most Paladins will care about. I know I won't be casting it when I'm taking unless everyone else is dead (though we've probably wiped by then anyway) and during other times a scroll can be used. It would be much better if this gave healing amplification (say 5%) or something.
    Glorious Stand: Extremely long cooldown for a short-term buff that uses up valuable Turn Undead attempts. The benefits need to be increased (add in a lot of PRR) and increase the duration to 60 seconds. Also it needs some static benefit, say another passive 5% healing amp or +10 PRR all the time.
    Eternal Defender: The +2 CHA is nice, the extended unconscious range is ok, but the active toggle is pretty terrible. Using up 2 Turn Undeads for a 250 HP heal where it only works if you go to negative HP but don't die is a high cost with a narrow window of use. Not quite sure how this could be fixed, but to be honest I'd much prefer something that increased melee damage to this.


    EDIT:
    If this tree is the one that comes out in the update, I know I'll either try to get the better KotC capstone somehow or just splash 2 Fighter and invest heavily in Kensei on my "Defender of Siberys" Paladin since there really isn't anything past tier 4 I would even want in the the defender tree.
    Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 06-25-2013 at 08:50 AM.

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